Hypersonic is Pointless???

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby duckshooter » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:05 pm

So I take it then that we are all on the same page, spending an extra $5 - $8 per box for hypersonic is a total waste of money. Just another gimmick to sell more shells. I'm afraid to even mention my theory on the frisbee effect of the Saturn shaped pellets in the BlackCloud.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:58 pm

duckshooter wrote:So I take it then that we are all on the same page, spending an extra $5 - $8 per box for hypersonic is a total waste of money. Just another gimmick to sell more shells. I'm afraid to even mention my theory on the frisbee effect of the Saturn shaped pellets in the BlackCloud.


Well.. there is a lot going on when it comes to this stuff. What's important is making sure you can hit your target. Shoot some skeet or next time you're in a field and the geese aren't flying... I keep a lid of a beans bucket.. or pickle bucket, we throw that thing as hard as we can and we use that as practice. Takes practice to throw the thing but its tons of fun. theres your frisbee.

The remington hypersonics have done nothing for me... but plenty of people here will tell you about all kinds of "high-speed" loads that do wonders... not sure about how much of it is true. Only you can prove that.

If you're making your kills I wouldn't worry about the ammo, most good shooters can hit birds with any ammo... If your missing more birds than killing first go pick up a 100 round box of cheapo target loads and shoot some flying targets.

Another thing, you shouldn't think about how to shoot birds at distances that ammo manufactures tote their shells.. it's just too far.
Spend that money on scouting, hiding yourself, buying decoys, learning to call and how to get close enough that you're getting your doubles and triples at 20 yards never mind the 50+ talk... it's a waste of time, and a good hunter wouldn't waste a shell on it or risk crippling the animal.

Oh.. I'd love to hear your theory on those blackclouds.

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:20 am

I've heard of Black Clouds hanging over some hunters that spend to much time thinking their ammo is better than others
but , good shooters can be successful with just about any shell as long as the pellets are good and round :yes:

What ever you choose to shoot , time at the range will dictate your success :thumbsup:
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby nitram » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:33 am

3200 man wrote:What ever you choose to shoot , time at the range will dictate your success :thumbsup:


EXACTLY :thumbsup:
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Calikev » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:34 pm

Overpriced shells if you ask me. I can't add much to this thread as there has been lots of good advice already. Confidence comes from honing your skills and the better you become at it the less you worry about what shell you are shooting.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby quack-attack » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:36 pm

this is why i just shoot everything off the water with my .17 HMR.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby QuackerSmacker498 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:57 pm

Mugz that's a great a post and I have experienced the same results by taking many new hunters out on a boat.

They often shoot behind the bird. Sometimes they hit the bird on the second or third shot as the bird climbs straight up. And the necessary lead has now shortened.

So back to special shells.......they are CRAP for the money you spend. But if it makes you feel better about killing ducks, keep buying them. 3" #2's. Or 3.5" BB's for geese only. I have been very happy with Federal Steel. They pattern just fine and you can't beat the price......$11.40 for 3" a box if you know where to buy them $14.00 for 3.5's
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:14 pm

QuackerSmacker498 wrote:Mugz that's a great a post and I have experienced the same results by taking many new hunters out on a boat.

They often shoot behind the bird. Sometimes they hit the bird on the second or third shot as the bird climbs straight up. And the necessary lead has now shortened.

So back to special shells.......they are CRAP for the money you spend. But if it makes you feel better about killing ducks, keep buying them. 3" #2's. Or 3.5" BB's for geese only. I have been very happy with Federal Steel. They pattern just fine and you can't beat the price......$11.40 for 3" a box if you know where to buy them $14.00 for 3.5's


Yep, I use Kent's but I have to drive far to get them. The shop near me only carries federal and Remington. so I'll use the federals when I'm out of kents and no time to go get more. If you switched the two brands on me I probably wouldn't notice. But I'm still trying to get rid of a few boxes of the black clouds. Just a crappy load. funny pellets + funny wadding = funny behavior. I bring them along as backup shells or shells to shoot random crap with... They're no good for that either.

I keep #4's up to a few rounds of T shot in my ammo box... I'll pick from the lot depending on weather conditions or how the birds are flying. I usually shoot #2's to BBB.


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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:27 pm

If you add 100 fps to a load , it doesn't help or hurt your shooting ether way as forward allowance doesn't change !
So , at 1425 fps with a 1 1/4 oz of BB's is 90 pellets , controlling these pellets with the proper choke in your gun
makes them just as effective as a 3 1/2 " load without all the recoil...... :huh:

Try it on a patterning board and see for yourself ? It will kill birds just as far with less recoil and make you better shot !

:hammer: :thumbsup:
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby fish dog » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:01 pm

3 1/2" vs 3" brings another question to mind for the mathematical among us. Is the shot string from a 3 1/2 shell substancally longer then from a 3? Might that longer shot string hit a bird that you're too far out in front of (I know, not a typical problem) where a 3" would miss. Again, just wondering.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby duckshooter » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:20 pm

3200 man wrote:I've heard of Black Clouds hanging over some hunters that spend to much time thinking their ammo is better than others
but , good shooters can be successful with just about any shell as long as the pellets are good and round :yes:

What ever you choose to shoot , time at the range will dictate your success :thumbsup:


Totally agree. Hundreds of years of trial and error have proven that nothing is more aerodynamic than a perfect sphere. Thus the baseball, tennis ball, soccer ball, basketball, golf ball (mostly spherical), etc. Try handing a pro golfer a golf ball shaped like a Winchester hex-shot pellet or a Saturn shaped BlackCloud pellet and he'll probably punch you in the face. And if he doesn't punch you right away he will definitely throw a haymaker after the thing knuckleballs or hard slices off the tee. But because we can't actually see the flight of the pellets when we pull the trigger we fall sucker to these gimmicky new loads.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby straightsixes » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:47 pm

Ever used reclaimed shot or even seen it on the ground at the back of a trap range?

Ever loaded your own shells using actual Hevi-shot?

There is often deformation of lead shot upon setback. Hevi-shot is/was some of the ugliest shot you could ever see, with much of it looking like welding slag. I would take both the dented lead or the slag-like Hevi-shot over perfectly round steel any day.

Shoot whatever gives you confidence. Proper fundamentals, confidence from practice, and a well fitting gun are all far more important than the fastest/heaviest load you can find at the store.

Anytime one wants to test the shotgunning theories come on out to Quail Point. We have no problem shooting steel ( even waterfowl loads ) or lead at ducky style clay targets. It's given a lot of confidence to many different shooters using their favorite, or soon to be favorite loads.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby QuackerSmacker498 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:53 pm

Doen't matter what you shoot. Quick story, take it for what its worth.

I hunted with my uncle this past season about five times. Most of our hunts, we limited and the others were near limits.

He is 68 years old and only shoots a Browning side by side 2 3/4 shells. Most of our shots were between 15-40 yards nothing further, with a variety of birds from teal, spoons, cans, gads, widgeon, and mallards.

I was very impressed to watch this seasoned hunter who had a variety of standard steel shot shells in a purple cloth bag absolutely stone every bird he shot at. No cripples what so ever. On the very rare occasion he would miss and it would be a clean miss.

I had this discussion with him about shot speed, hevi shot, yada yada. He simply said, "It don't matter what the hell you put down range if you can't hit your f------- bird, your wasting money."

His grab bag had Kent, fiochi, federal, Winchester. Pretty much all your average brands and nothing special.

Frankly, I tend to believe this old man, over any company trying to promote the worlds alleged next greatest shot shell.

This man has killed nearly all north american big game, thousands of ducks, and floated the Arctic Circle four times in his life on all unguided fair chase hunts. Never once with with ammunition that costs 2-3 times the normal cost.

And with that, keep telling yourself, those mathematical equasions, Amazing marketing plans, and expensive shells will put more game in your bag. I highly doubt it.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:30 pm

straightsixes wrote:
There is often deformation of lead shot upon setback. Hevi-shot is/was some of the ugliest shot you could ever see, with much of it looking like welding slag. I would take both the dented lead or the slag-like Hevi-shot over perfectly round steel any day.



Why would you shoot something that has a lower chance of flying straight and hitting the target? Lead pellets getting "dented" during setback only happen to a few out of the bunch and a lot of companies worked pretty hard to get rid of the problem with plated lead shot and harder lead, till steel was made mandatory. It's not like the pellets get smashed flat, turned into cubes, ringed or melted into slag before all that chaos ends. Odd shaped pellets and those dented lead ones will have a higher percent chance of falling outside the pattern than a pellet that is round. It's plain physics and we are not going to re-write those laws anytime soon.

On the flip side, if you can put them on target the odd shapes are more lethal in general as they slow down in the bird much more rapidly delivering the energy at a more rapid rate than a round ball would. You could say they have more "stopping power" much like a how a big game hunting round opens up compared to a FMJ round of the same velocity and caliber.

To get creative the best of both worlds would be ideal, a round ball that upon impact frags out and dissipates all its energy quickly. We don't have these yet.

Steel has penetration that is too good... a lot of birds get hit, and the pellet passes cleanly through and the bird keeps on flying on to die somewhere else... a lot like a deer shot with an arrow. This is one of the reasons lead is a better killer... it usually deforms on impact.

I guess this brings us around to a steel pellet at high velocity easily burning through a duck. Unless you hit a vital... the bird doesn't even know it's been hit. A larger, slower pellet would generally be more effective than a small blazing fast one, but that larger pellet at blazing speed would be just as effective as it was at slower speed. :huh:

I would say, keeping shots to a conservative range, that a pellet with enough mass moving at enough speed so as not to over-penetrate the target, but deliver a force just great enough to be lethal... would be most effective and most efficient.

Natives American used large, heavy, blunt arrowheads to knock birds down rather than a sharp point that would pass through cleanly...and they had thousands of years to figure that out. It is easier to inflict deadly blunt force trauma than it is to penetrate to the vitals. My choice for shotgun loads is somewhere in between.


Good story QuackerSmacker, that old friend of yours is right on! Any load will kill just fine if you put it on the bird.


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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Bootlipkiller » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:34 am

quack-attack wrote:this is why i just shoot everything off the water with my .17 HMR.

:lol: now that was funny!


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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:55 am

Fish dog

From what I understand of ( speed of the shot-string) it's traveling at such a high rate of speed in mil/sec , that
bird would not be able to fly into the shot-string even if it was 12 ft long . That's the reason why birds are hit with
multiple BB's in the front of the shot-string as well as the back , if you center it in the pattern .
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:12 am

3200 man wrote:Fish dog

From what I understand of ( speed of the shot-string) it's traveling at such a high rate of speed in mil/sec , that
bird would not be able to fly into the shot-string even if it was 12 ft long . That's the reason why birds are hit with
multiple BB's in the front of the shot-string as well as the back , if you center it in the pattern .


Another thing about shot strings is how the pellets out in front are subjected to greater air drag while the pellets behind get a bit of a free ride, drafting behind the front mass. The result is actually that most of the pellets are in a small cloud in front as the pellets in front slow down, allowing pellets behind to catch up, and then it happens again. When you see the "string" hit the water it's misleading because if the pattern was 30" round, the pellets at the bottom would hit water first, and because of the velocity those at the top hit quite a bit further away... making it look like a 12 foot string.

There are obviously some pellets that trail behind, these are ones that were disrupted by the shotcup or deformed.. etc.. but they're just a lot slower than the main count.

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby straightsixes » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:31 am

Mugzwump wrote:
Why would you shoot something that has a lower chance of flying straight and hitting the target? Lead pellets getting "dented" during setback only happen to a few out of the bunch and a lot of companies worked pretty hard to get rid of the problem with plated lead shot and harder lead, till steel was made mandatory. It's not like the pellets get smashed flat, turned into cubes, ringed or melted into slag before all that chaos ends. Odd shaped pellets and those dented lead ones will have a higher percent chance of falling outside the pattern than a pellet that is round. It's plain physics and we are not going to re-write those laws anytime soon.

Mugz.



So how come when Hevi-shot came on the market it immediately began setting records and winning "championships" for patterns in "Turkey Load" situations? Aren't you claiming above that physics demand perfectly round steel should be better than slaglike Hevi-shot? How come that doesn't play out in the real world?

How come they don't use steel for military projectiles (tank rounds etc)?

Go shoot some lead reclaim (majority of reclaim is NOT round) at targets... see if you can tell the difference out to 45-50 yards.

Don't worry... I understand the logic of round vs non-round.

You might be missing the point that in physics... some "laws" ( in some cases its theories) can outweigh others in real world situations.

Just like in real world situations... the affects of recoil on the average shooter (while they might vehemently disagree) outweighs the use of super high velocity or high weight loads. It doesn't take long watching shooters to see that the hitches and twitches start to form as their body starts to try to protect itself from recoil.


Finally... there are lots of reasons for non-hits while shotgunning. Blaming it all on not leading enough... is akin to always blaming your car not starting on the battery. There are lots of reasons for non-hits... that could fill a page here, but its not worth the hassle to write it down becauase most people wouldn't understand OR like a hypochondriac it would give more reasons to come up lame.

I used to cringe when the guy 25 feet away... screams "double your lead" to a guy in the cage trying to find a target. The helper can't see the shot string, or the barrel relationship with the target... but all they have is "double your lead". I don't cringe anymore because well at this point in range ownership... I've learned not to care about some things. As long as they are having fun and being safe, just stay out of the way and let them continue to fire shot downrange.

Your mileage may vary.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:59 am

straightsixes wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
Why would you shoot something that has a lower chance of flying straight and hitting the target? Lead pellets getting "dented" during setback only happen to a few out of the bunch and a lot of companies worked pretty hard to get rid of the problem with plated lead shot and harder lead, till steel was made mandatory. It's not like the pellets get smashed flat, turned into cubes, ringed or melted into slag before all that chaos ends. Odd shaped pellets and those dented lead ones will have a higher percent chance of falling outside the pattern than a pellet that is round. It's plain physics and we are not going to re-write those laws anytime soon.

Mugz.



So how come when Hevi-shot came on the market it immediately began setting records and winning "championships" for patterns in "Turkey Load" situations? Aren't you claiming above that physics demand perfectly round steel should be better than slaglike Hevi-shot? How come that doesn't play out in the real world?

How come they don't use steel for military projectiles (tank rounds etc)?

Go shoot some lead reclaim (majority of reclaim is NOT round) at targets... see if you can tell the difference out to 45-50 yards.

Don't worry... I understand the logic of round vs non-round.

You might be missing the point that in physics... some "laws" ( in some cases its theories) can outweigh others in real world situations.

Just like in real world situations... the affects of recoil on the average shooter (while they might vehemently disagree) outweighs the use of super high velocity or high weight loads. It doesn't take long watching shooters to see that the hitches and twitches start to form as their body starts to try to protect itself from recoil.


Finally... there are lots of reasons for non-hits while shotgunning. Blaming it all on not leading enough... is akin to always blaming your car not starting on the battery. There are lots of reasons for non-hits... that could fill a page here, but its not worth the hassle to write it down becauase most people wouldn't understand OR like a hypochondriac it would give more reasons to come up lame.

I used to cringe when the guy 25 feet away... screams "double your lead" to a guy in the cage trying to find a target. The helper can't see the shot string, or the barrel relationship with the target... but all they have is "double your lead". I don't cringe anymore because well at this point in range ownership... I've learned not to care about some things. As long as they are having fun and being safe, just stay out of the way and let them continue to fire shot downrange.

Your mileage may vary.


We all have our opinions. Shooting skeet from a cage isn't like shooting a dynamic living target, as I'm sure you know. the very first time I shot clays I went in not knowing what to expect, I wanted to "test" myself so I shot my first round with my hunting load. BBB Kent steel in a 3" shell with a MOD choke. Low gun, one round at a time, I shot 22/25, murdering the old dudes next to me with their fancy skeet guns. Well that started a huge debate right there on the spot about lead vs steel and pellet counts in 7 1/2 target loads vs my hunting loads. So I switched to the clubs target loads...to see how that would fare. I shot 21/25 with those, and I definitely enjoyed shooting those more as I was only in a t-shirt and my hunting loads we're starting to wear on me without my usual 4 inches of cold weather gear between me and the gun. That was also the last time I ever shot skeet.

The "double-your-lead" thing I believe stems from hunting, where more often the bird flies across at 50mph, rather than up and away like a standard clay set up. I don't see how it would make much sense shooting skeet... half the shots I made I don't recall much lead at all. ( compared to hunting) I'm not saying skeet isn't helpful to a hunter, it probably does wonders for follow through and proper gun mounting, and getting the bead on target.

I can't say I'll go out and shoot some reclaimed lead anytime soon... just not in my plans.

I understand that if you're shooting deformed shot, (at a target that would break if you dropped it.) with small shot sizes and pellet counts in the 300's, sure.. deformed shot will give you a quick forming , huge pattern and it'll be super dense and retain enough energy to break a clay. Take some BBB steel and smack it all with a hammer so it's just as dented as your reclaimed shot, then pack that into a 1 oz load with a pellet count of 62, and see if you can hit a clay at 40 yards with any consistency.

We're dealing with apples and oranges. I'm not looking to break clay targets, I need something that'll fly straight because my pattern is already really, really thin compared to a standard target load, and the density of steel doesn't allow room for extra velocity losses due to any deformations.. round steel goes faster/further.

1 oz of 7 1/2 lead has 350 pellets and 1 oz of BBB steel has only 62.

The military uses all kinds of metal... steel, lead, tungsten... you name it they've tried it. A lot of anti-tank rounds are made partly of metal harder than the materials the tanks are made of. FMJ bullets are coated in steel or copper to allow greater penetration. It's all in the designated use of the product.

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby slowshooter » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:09 pm

Don't confuse mass with aerodynamics.

The reason that hevi shoots straighter is because it's deformations are forced to the rear so there is less resistance to air.
Same with deformed lead. The air is forced around the projectile while the deformation limits spin the result is that the projectile travels in a straight(er) line.

The problem with perfect steel is best illustrated with a golf ball. The indentations on the ball allow control that would be impossible with a perfect sphere. Perfection provided imperfect flight.

The flip side is controlling the deformation and forcing the air to keep the deformation to the front while piercing the atmosphere. In short, a bullet.

I see what you are getting at though. I always wondered why that blindside stuff (or which ever goofy shot that was unfinished) didn't come in smaller shot. It would fly like a line drive and hit like the hammer of Thor.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Calikev » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:25 pm

I don't think Hevi Shot shoots any straighter but it definitely is more lethal. What it gives you in a much denser material that allows one to drop to the smaller shot sizes and still maintain weight. So that increases pattern density. Getting more pellets to the target without having to drastically increase the size of the shot charge allows them to create recoil friendly loads for waterfowlers that are more lethal. More hits means more lethal. They generally have more hits due to that increased pattern density. Then as far as the pellet density goes they pack good energy so you can shoot 4's and have the same energy as your steel 2's more less. That's a big improvement IMO and could benefit folks who maybe need to stretch things out a bit. That is where Hevi shows itself superior IMO.

Straightsixes hit the nail on the head about turkey loads. Hevi shot has dominated the turkey shoots due to those same properties. You can really load up the shot charge (recoil and speed less important in turkey loads) and pack many of the smaller pellets into those loads. They perform great too due to there being so many and the pellets penetration are superior to many other types. Like lead you will have flyers but less of them due to the fact the pellets are inherently heavier so they fly more true. Obviously choke selection plays into this as well.

Remember that "dead is dead". So while many of the more costly loads like Hevi Shot are no question more lethal, are they really necessary? Can quality steel loads get the job done as well? I think many of us know the answer to that. Steel is more than capable of getting the job done and at some point for some of us cost becomes the biggest factor. I shoot Hevi for turkeys because I don't shoot many shells and I want the best that I can get. However, I shoot quite a bit more for ducks and my shots are generally in close quarters. The Kent's I shoot get the job done so I don't really see the need to be any more lethal.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:40 pm

slowshooter wrote:Don't confuse mass with aerodynamics.

The reason that hevi shoots straighter is because it's deformations are forced to the rear so there is less resistance to air.
Same with deformed lead. The air is forced around the projectile while the deformation limits spin the result is that the projectile travels in a straight(er) line. Hevi does not shoot "straighter". Deformations are not forced to the rear, they lose velocity faster and fly erratically. deformations no not limit spin they cause instability, whereas spin can create stability in certain cases.

The problem with perfect steel is best illustrated with a golf ball. The indentations on the ball allow control that would be impossible with a perfect sphere. Perfection provided imperfect flight.Golf balls are low velocity projectiles, they spend half their time literally falling out of the sky. The dimples are perfect in their own shape, uniformly spaced over the surface of the ball. The effect of the dimples, being uniform create a stable air cushion in front of the ball, as air slips off itself better than it does off plastic, the result is less air drag. But fire that golf ball at 1400 fps and the effect of the dimples will probably rip the ball apart.

The flip side is controlling the deformation and forcing the air to keep the deformation to the front while piercing the atmosphere. In short, a bullet.Bullets are not deformed... they are shaped and balanced to have a lower ballistic coefficient.

I see what you are getting at though. I always wondered why that blindside stuff (or which ever goofy shot that was unfinished) didn't come in smaller shot. It would fly like a line drive and hit like the hammer of Thor.If they made it smaller it wouldn't make it to the patterning board


No offense, these theories of yours are tailored to your opinions, or someone has been misguiding you. Tell me what the problem with perfect steel is?

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:32 pm

Now we're cooking , with ballistics of good round steel shot traveling at a normal velocity of 1400 plus fps . If it did spin
we might have a little more distance at the birds we shoot at but , coming out of the wad as a knuckle -ball for most of the
shot in the payload , there is air-drag or resistance which slows it down and the outside pellets start to spin away from the
core pellets creating the pattern . I haven't shot much Heavy Shot but with lead that is truly round , it will fly farther in a
controlled pattern better than shot with imperfections . Shot density in Heavy Shot pellets makes it better than lead ,only !
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:39 pm

MUZ The only problem with steel shot is , we wish it was heavier but the hardness is a benefit as it stays round

during set-back and we can push it much faster than lead or heavy shot , with more pellets in a given load weight .
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:45 pm

3200 man wrote:MUZ The only problem with steel shot is , we wish it was heavier but the hardness is a benefit as it stays round

during set-back and we can push it much faster than lead or heavy shot , with more pellets in a given load weight .


Yea, it sure does go fast...

I don't have any problems with it till it's compared to something else. Kind of like how your stuff is fine till your neighbor pulls up with a newer... or hotter and younger model! That Bastard!

:beer:

Mugz.
Mugzwump
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