Hypersonic is Pointless???

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:10 pm

This is something to ponder ? A bird flying at 42 mph it takes the SAME lead no matter which angle it's flying

at the same distance ! Therefore , a 90 degree crossing shot takes the same forward allowance as a quartering away ! :eek:

Believe it or not ?
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:23 pm

3200 man wrote:This is something to ponder ? A bird flying at 42 mph it takes the SAME lead no matter which angle it's flying

at the same distance ! Therefore , a 90 degree crossing shot takes the same forward allowance as a quartering away ! :eek:

Believe it or not ?


Are we talking to the decimal point here or within some margin of give and take?

lol... this is a good one.

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:46 pm

Mugzwump wrote:
3200 man wrote:This is something to ponder ? A bird flying at 42 mph it takes the SAME lead no matter which angle it's flying

at the same distance ! Therefore , a 90 degree crossing shot takes the same forward allowance as a quartering away ! :eek:

Believe it or not ?


Are we talking to the decimal point here or within some margin of give and take?

lol... this is a good one.

Mugz.


Okay, I'm saying nay.

Just for the fact that if the bird is flying at 90 degrees to my gun barrel the lead is x, if the bird is flying zero degrees to my gun barrel the lead is definitely not x. Your opening statement says any angle...

Now if you want to get into the 45 degree-ish angles, there are actually two types of "lead". One is the virtual lead you see as though the the bird was crossing, the distance from your barrel to the bird in your view, I call that virtual because the pellets and the bird will never actually meet here, put its a perceived lead. The second lead is the distance from the bird to where the pellets will (should) be to make the hit, the final and real intersection of bird and pellet... the bird, the virtual lead and the real lead make a right triangle.

It's possible that one or both of these "virtual" / "real" lead on the angle shot are equal to the lead of the cross shot... but I haven't done any math on this yet. I'll wait on that. I have half a mind that there is a trick in here somewhere... all these triangles gotta line up on each other somehow and the fact that you specified the 42 mph... though maybe it's design is to make me think there is a trick and its totally arbitrary? lol... I might actually do the math.

Now if you're gonna say the SAME LEAD will kill the bird in either shot cuz that's what the bb's are made of... :clapping:

ya got me thinking either way.


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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby straightsixes » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:03 pm

Perceived lead vs actual lead.

As far as previous posts... I forget that people don't really want to think on Internet forums... Just talk about what they know. I don't want to be one of "those" guys.

Look up inertia. Compare densities of steel, lead, Hevi-shot, and depleted uranium. With similar density projectiles aerodynamics play a role... Maybe less so when going from low to signifantly higher density projectiles.

Skeet is a great game. Check out sporting clays sometime it might be more entertaining for the average hunter as it allows machines significantly faster (and slower) than skeet to help mimic live birds.

I've been at hundreds of events and helped throw millions of targets now. Have yet to see the guy with his pump waterfowl gun come and school the "big boys". Hear about it on the internet... Yep . See it in real life? Not yet. But heck maybe in the few million tournament targets I see this year it might happen.

Have a great off season and enjoy shooting those working 50 mph ducks next year. Our group will just stick to the slow and stupid birds.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:50 pm

straightsixes wrote:
I've been at hundreds of events and helped throw millions of targets now. Have yet to see the guy with his pump waterfowl gun come and school the "big boys". Hear about it on the internet... Yep . See it in real life? Not yet. But heck maybe in the few million tournament targets I see this year it might happen.


Did I say they were the "big boys"? Lol.. I said "old dudes with fancy guns" I have no idea if they were any good. All I know is I surprised a few guys at the club I went to once. But hey... maybe I got lucky, or maybe it's the 30 years of shooting birds 3 or 4 times a week. Thought since you mentioned the range I'd share my experience. Any ways... I doubt I'd win any skeet championships... but I also doubt the non-hunter skeet champ would limit out on ducks if given the chance. I guess that's pretty subjective though. I sure as hell don't hit 22/25 ducks too often. :hammer:

Oh and I'm gonna piss a lot of guys off here with this one... sorry doodes... but real serious waterfowlers don't shoot pumps they shoot semi-auto's. There's only one place pumping the wrist is of any use... and it ain't hunting. :grooving:

Not too sure we have a lot of sporting clays around here... I had a hard time finding that skeet club. Not too popular in my neck.
Guess that is why I hadn't gone till recently. They do have the set-up where the clays come from 5 different stations though.. I honestly don't have a clue when it comes to what is what with skeet.

Truth of the matter when it comes to all this talk of pellet shape... the effects of air resistance, fluid dynamics, conservation of momentum.. it all plays a role but very very insignificantly compared to the way we discuss them. You put smooth round pellets in one shell, rough deformed pellets in another and pull a blind test... Most good shooters will hit the target with both and be none the wiser about any changes. Heck for clays you could switch #7 1/2's for #4's and most people wouldn't notice. Maybe this is something you can test out at your range... sounds like you have access to all the necessary components... blind shooters too?? :wink:

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:20 am

Competitive Sporting Clay's shooters do have the upper hand finding the line of a target , with the knowledge of what
method ( spot shoot ,maintained lead or pass-through ) to use but a true Waterfowler in most cases is a pass-through shooter
as he is standing in mud or water and has vegetation to shoot around or through ,with low light , wind , rain and bulky jackets
and waders to slow him down . The Dandy Dan Sporting Clay's shooter has his 300 dollar vest on ( with all the Patches ) and is
standing in the shooting stand looking at the show-Pairs , then changing his chokes for the distance and choosing the right
shell , which usually are 4 different ones because he has 4 pockets in his vest . All this is done after he rides his Golf Cart
to each station with his multi-thousand dollar gun in a fancy gun sleeve so it doesn't get dust on it . :yes:
I am a Duck Hunter and with the love I have for it , I shoot Competitive Sporting Clay's so I can be the best Duck Hunter
I can be ! I also enjoy not having to pick-up my reloaded hulls as I see all kinds of New ones that I can reload for Ducks !
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby straightsixes » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:55 am

3200 man wrote:I also enjoy not having to pick-up my reloaded hulls as I see all kinds of New ones that I can reload for Ducks !


I love that one!!! Ever felt like stopping a shoot so you can pick up the 10 Nitro hulls sitting out in front of the cage?

Been there and done that.

While there are definitely some Dandy Dan's out there (I can name a few) there see also quite a few dedicated waterfowlers who hit the NSCA circuit.

The good ones don't miss much either on the course or out in the field. They spend a lot of time with a shotgun in their hands and study whatever is required to make them as close to perfect as possible. Ever watch someone shoot 100+ shells at one specific hard target? They are driving it home in their memory.

Those guys and gals are fun to watch.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:14 am

3200 man wrote:Competitive Sporting Clay's shooters do have the upper hand finding the line of a target , with the knowledge of what
method ( spot shoot ,maintained lead or pass-through ) to use but a true Waterfowler in most cases is a pass-through shooter
as he is standing in mud or water and has vegetation to shoot around or through ,with low light , wind , rain and bulky jackets
and waders to slow him down . The Dandy Dan Sporting Clay's shooter has his 300 dollar vest on ( with all the Patches ) and is
standing in the shooting stand looking at the show-Pairs , then changing his chokes for the distance and choosing the right
shell , which usually are 4 different ones because he has 4 pockets in his vest . All this is done after he rides his Golf Cart
to each station with his multi-thousand dollar gun in a fancy gun sleeve so it doesn't get dust on it . :yes:
I am a Duck Hunter and with the love I have for it , I shoot Competitive Sporting Clay's so I can be the best Duck Hunter
I can be ! I also enjoy not having to pick-up my reloaded hulls as I see all kinds of New ones that I can reload for Ducks !


You forgot about how us northerners have to knock the ice off our guns before shooting, and find the tips of our fingers as we try to work the action or switch the safety off... and then peel our frozen faces off the butt stock... lol.

My last hunt this season it was -20, and I had to stand in the shower when I got home in order to thaw the ice off my jacket so I could unzip it... (only the second time I've had to do that and the first time was because I actually went through the ice on my snowmobile.) My decoys were building up so much ice they were all flipping over and we had 50mph winds on top of it all. That one was extreme... took me a few days to get over the boat ride home, it was like a scene out of the movie "perfect storm" or something... I get shivers just thinking about it.

I'd do the skeet thing more if I could, It's a bit of drive and I'd rather go hunting... heck I'd rather go birdwatching. (Learning the habits of the bird gets you close enough that you can't miss, as a hunter I think that is more important than target shooting) Maybe I'll look into it this summer. They close the skeet section of the club for the winter.

I usually spot shoot( instinctively), or hold the maintained lead... but the pass-through is an inevitable option. Some of those birds are just way out ahead of you before you have a chance to get it all together. It's probably all three at the same time!

I've been shooting for 30 years.. I have terrible form.. I know this because my gun-shop owner buddy yells at me every time I pick up a gun. I seem to hurt my face at least once a season... this fall I somehow wedged my head between the gun and the lip of a 150 gallon drum pit blind... that hurt. And was oddly a lot louder than most other shots from that blind. I often shoot with the gun low on my shoulder.. maybe its the frozen hands, maybe it's all the bulky clothing or odd positions I find myself in trying to crane my body for the shot, I'll wake up the next day looking like I took a short slugger bat to the arm... But I'm not a bad shot, almost always with more birds than other guys at the boat launch... not always though, that's hunting, can't just yell "pull" when you're ready to shoot.

I could work out all the kinks and maybe improve my shooting... but then I wouldn't have anything to talk about at the pub, and it would not be any fun to limit out in 6 shots every hunt and have to go back home early and take out the trash or some other dutiful task I will be nominated for.


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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:27 am

I squad ed with Tom Johns at a shoot and there was a station with 10 targets that came off a hill (maybe) 120 yds
away , as I could see the line of the target hooking down the hill and trying to shoot it inside 50 yds , I only hit 4 targets .
Tom broke 9 out of 10 a lot farther up the hill so , I questioned his judgement but not his success . After the shoot he
took me back to the same station , I shot 2 boxes before I could see what he knew was the break-point and I did not !

Yep , experience ! And it will show in the Duck Blind as well !
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby straightsixes » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:37 am

I can picture Tom's abrupt move on a long incomer right now. Then a cloud of black dust. My assumption (shame on me) is that not many birds would get by him in the field.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby slowshooter » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:46 am

Mugs,

Gotta work on a project that has to get done today so will circle around either late tonight or tomorrow and you can argue with preteen me - to educate a much older me... Not a physicist but had access to a wind tunnel for science projects which included building shapes to test which would provide less drag - specific to determining how the boundary layer affected flight, pull of gravity vs. push of acceleration. Admittedly while my classmates were doing the math I was far more interested in Susie B. A. McCutiepie and didn't pay that much attention. We were a pretty odd bunch of little farts. And no, I never screwed up the courage to ask her to go to the Woolworths counter with me for Ice cream. That's how long ago that was. :lol3:

Benefit of living in an area that used to house a lot of government and science facilities - we had access to stuff that kids today would never be able to get their hands on.

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby QuackerSmacker498 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:42 pm

Now that the topic has completely strayed away from high dollar ammunition to duck hunters vs. clay shooters, don't know if anybody mentioned the following.

Clays don't split like two teal splitting. Not in a million years!!!! Nor do clays drop, rise, or do any of the different acrobatics any type of duck can do. Still have yet to see a clay do a double barrel roll like a snow goose all hopped up off a rice field.

What about the fact that clay shooters always shoot from a standing position with a shouldered weapon. Oh yeah, they get to call "Pull" to indicate they are ready to shoot. LAME....there is no comparrison!!!!! Clay shooting is on the shooters terms, where as hunting is on the birds/ mother natures terms. Its a controlled environment vs. Unknown.

It would be like rock climbing vs indoor climbing at the gym. Great workout but its not the real thing.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby yellowdog53 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:47 pm

This thread kinda reminds me of the PGA golf tournaments... Shhh everyone quiet when you putt or are teeing off... Thats not real life golf...Quck hit it perfect "pull" and of course the shooter knows exactly where the clay is going to come from and when and how fast etc...

Hunting and shooting are two totally different types of sport..

Mentioning them in the same arena is ridiculious..

Ohh by the way I shoot a 40 year old 870 wingmaster pump and I don't shoot hyper either just good old 3 inch 3's ounce and 1/8 1560...
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Calikev » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:42 pm

This discussion reminds me of the same stuff I heard when I was competitive calling. Folks who hunt a lot and don't call on stage quickly assume that the folks up on stage can't call ducks and somehow aren't skilled duck callers. Well in 35+ years of waterfowling I've known that to be false. Some of the best callers I know in the field are competitive callers while there are many good field callers who never hit the stage and could hold their own on the stage. The bottom line is QUIT labeling people, stereotyping and generalizing. Every man is different so if you wan't to judge someone get to know them before you label them.

So the same applies to shooting sports. I know folks like Straightsixes, Blackdog58, Leakywaders, Slowshooter who do a lot of clay shooting in their spare time. I assume nothing with these folks and know each one of them can hold their own on the range and certainly can smash birds in the field with the likes of any of you. I also know many folks who seldom shoot clays who can hang in the field with these folks for the most part so I wouldn't pass judgement either way. The bottom line is each of those folks has put their own level of contribution into making themselves good shots and it may vary by their approach. I can't say that everyone here would be a great clay shooter or great wingshot but certainly putting time in doing it will swing the pendulum in their favor. I tend to think that you do what you enjoy and what you can afford. Maybe the other way around but needless to say if you enjoy shooting clays and take it up to the level these guys do it I would think you slant the odds in your favor of being successful.

Shooting is shooting no matter what you are shooting. It is all about mechanics, muscle memory, focus, etc. The difference with real birds is they are more unpredictable than clays. However, I've seen some clays that would make your hair stand up. Not easy shots for the average shooter but the guys who are dialed in can crush them without thinking twice. They have honed their skills to the top level of shooting so nothing is overly challenging for these folks. That carries over into the field. That confidence is essential I think in making someone effective. Some need to shoot a lot to keep it and others just pick up where they left off although that is more rare IMO.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:42 pm

You got that right Kev and there are times on windy days those clay targets can be almost unhitable but ,the greater
percentage do get broke by some ! Just like shooting at Teal or flip-flopping Snow geese ! The only difference is when
hunting you run-out of shells and with clay targets you get O's, then more O's and No Money to go home with and your
tail between your legs thinking Why or How did I miss that easy target ?

But , you learn how to do it in the field.....in time !
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby nastynate » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:56 am

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:22 am

OH thanks , I see :huh:

I've been using the PAH method for so long , it comes natural as I close my eyes when pulling the trigger ! :yes: :thumbsup:



PAH = Poke And Hope
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby LeakyW8ers » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:24 am

3200 man wrote:This is something to ponder ? A bird flying at 42 mph it takes the SAME lead no matter which angle it's flying

at the same distance ! Therefore , a 90 degree crossing shot takes the same forward allowance as a quartering away ! :eek:

Believe it or not ?


Actual lead is the same. Perceived lead is different. :biggrin:

For more on this check out Clay Coach Online and his videos on shooting skeet. He explains how the lead is 4' for each station, but the view of that 4' is just different because of the angles.

But of course you were already aware of that 3200 man. :thumbsup:
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:28 pm

LeakyW8ers wrote:
3200 man wrote:This is something to ponder ? A bird flying at 42 mph it takes the SAME lead no matter which angle it's flying

at the same distance ! Therefore , a 90 degree crossing shot takes the same forward allowance as a quartering away ! :eek:

Believe it or not ?


Actual lead is the same. Perceived lead is different. :biggrin:

For more on this check out Clay Coach Online and his videos on shooting skeet. He explains how the lead is 4' for each station, but the view of that 4' is just different because of the angles.

But of course you were already aware of that 3200 man. :thumbsup:


Is that right.? Well... actual lead isn't gonna help when all you see is perceived lead...?? but it's damn interesting.

Guess I should bust out the old pen and paper and see about this idea. I can see some reasons why it makes sense and then others reasons just don't feel right...

You guys are right about the skeet vs hunt thing too... in the stereotypical way you can't cross over but just like how an athlete can rock it on the football field and then be a pro golfer the next season... a man can be a pro in both fields, and then some.

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:17 pm

You know the old saying ? When you see the line its Butt Belly Beak.....see the light......Boom !

It's amazing to watch someone Sustain-lead a Bird / Target and miss , then out of fright , swing over to another and Kill it
without even knowing what the lead is ! WOW .... :huh: Yep , :lol3: :lol:
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby nastynate » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:36 pm

Idk what you two are talking about there is a difference in the lead. Does it matter? No, as I feel shooting comes down to practicing good habits and experience. You feel it, that's about right, then shoot it.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:08 pm

Muz

With you being so good with a pencil and paper , also figure out the drop of steel shot ( stay 2's ) as they are so popular
in the Marsh ? I believe lead shot is around 11 inches at 60 yds so , in-light'n us as to the real drop ! Naturally smaller size
steel shot drops more ? :yes: :huh:
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:39 pm

3200 man wrote:Muz

With you being so good with a pencil and paper , also figure out the drop of steel shot ( stay 2's ) as they are so popular
in the Marsh ? I believe lead shot is around 11 inches at 60 yds so , in-light'n us as to the real drop ! Naturally smaller size
steel shot drops more ? :yes: :huh:


Oh man... without a good piece of working software I'd only come up with an estimate. There are too many factors of air resistance... But figure that a pound of feathers drops just as fast as a pound of lead... okay sure I'll do the math.. but that wouldn't be of any real use.

what we need is the real time it takes for the shot to go the 60 yards, the real shape of the bb, the air density and temperature where the shot takes place... and then maybe we could get close...

It all drops at a rate of acceleration of -9.8m/s^2, but the effects of air resistance will change that. You could do basic work and neglect air resistance completely... but the changes in velocity as it travels that far are too great to make any real assumptions about how long it takes the shot to go that far.... and that would really be the key. Then you'd have the time, the acceleration of gravity and the mass of the BB. that would give you the drop, you could totally neglect the air resistance of the pellet dropping...

I dunno.. I'm not a physicist. A lot of the calculations I do I end up with velocities or distances that are higher than what all the charts say... and that's all due to the effects of air resistance and my lack of will power to sit there and chug through that math with any accuracy... totally why computers were invented.

Find the time... that'll give you the drop. 11 inches sounds good to me... (that's what she said)

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:05 pm

also, a lighter pellet will drop less... so a lighter, faster pellet is more accurate in that sense as it'll drop less, but differences would be minute and I wouldn't suggest picking a load based on pellet drop.

As far as calculating lead, or differences in lead you can make assumptions with respect to the time it takes for the shot to reach the goose, as the time is a factor in both the shot and the goose, so any errors will be spread across the problem equally, and can be considered a standard margin of error... (+/- x amount of lead) More so with the problem mentioned above about the required lead for different angles, as we can pick an arbitrary time and it wont affect the answer to the problem, as the time for both shots and the time the goose flies in both scenarios is all the same number.

:beer:
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby slowshooter » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:37 am

Mugzwump wrote:
3200 man wrote:Muz

With you being so good with a pencil and paper , also figure out the drop of steel shot ( stay 2's ) as they are so popular
in the Marsh ? I believe lead shot is around 11 inches at 60 yds so , in-light'n us as to the real drop ! Naturally smaller size
steel shot drops more ? :yes: :huh:


Oh man... without a good piece of working software I'd only come up with an estimate. There are too many factors of air resistance... But figure that a pound of feathers drops just as fast as a pound of lead... okay sure I'll do the math.. but that wouldn't be of any real use.

what we need is the real time it takes for the shot to go the 60 yards, the real shape of the bb, the air density and temperature where the shot takes place... and then maybe we could get close...

It all drops at a rate of acceleration of -9.8m/s^2, but the effects of air resistance will change that. You could do basic work and neglect air resistance completely... but the changes in velocity as it travels that far are too great to make any real assumptions about how long it takes the shot to go that far.... and that would really be the key. Then you'd have the time, the acceleration of gravity and the mass of the BB. that would give you the drop, you could totally neglect the air resistance of the pellet dropping...

I dunno.. I'm not a physicist. A lot of the calculations I do I end up with velocities or distances that are higher than what all the charts say... and that's all due to the effects of air resistance and my lack of will power to sit there and chug through that math with any accuracy... totally why computers were invented.

Find the time... that'll give you the drop. 11 inches sounds good to me... (that's what she said)

Mugz.
'

I think there are a number of drop charts available online. Although pretty graphics don't ususally show the work.
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