Hypersonic is Pointless???

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby CJ » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:24 pm

yellowdog53 wrote:This thread kinda reminds me of the PGA golf tournaments... Shhh everyone quiet when you putt or are teeing off... Thats not real life golf...Quck hit it perfect "pull" and of course the shooter knows exactly where the clay is going to come from and when and how fast etc...

Hunting and shooting are two totally different types of sport..

Mentioning them in the same arena is ridiculious..

Ohh by the way I shoot a 40 year old 870 wingmaster pump and I don't shoot hyper either just good old 3 inch 3's ounce and 1/8 1560...

Now your talking my language, bought my 870 new when I was 13 (paper route money) I'll be 60 next week. Reason I bought it, my dad owned a wingmaster 20+ years older than mine, never had 1 problem. When I compared my new gun to his every part was interchangeable. Bought a number of shotguns (and other guns) since that time but it will always have the memories of my first.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby marsh-mello » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:17 pm

I do know the hypersonic loads are tough on guns...They do make the working parts hit hard, heard some reports of some broken parts from shooters.

Local gunsmiths opinion and work load from shooting these loads seems to confirm this.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby blackdog58 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:27 am

First, to compliment Kevin on his comment about labeling. He is so correct. Second, it always amazes me to read about shooting on forums in that it runs compeletly opposite when at the range or reading about it in publications. When you're recognized as someone that is able to help, and you do, first words that follow are yes and thank you. I've never had anyone ask me if I'm one of those high dollar gun shooters. That would kinda be like (hey mug) making the assumption that all hunting in Canada results in mega limts and 28ga type shooting. ie: again, Kevins comment about labeling.

I'm going to shed a little light on this comment:

QuackerSmacker498 wrote:Now that the topic has completely strayed away from high dollar ammunition to duck hunters vs. clay shooters, don't know if anybody mentioned the following.

Clays don't split like two teal splitting. Not in a million years!!!! Nor do clays drop, rise, or do any of the different acrobatics any type of duck can do. Still have yet to see a clay do a double barrel roll like a snow goose all hopped up off a rice field.

You obviously haven't been to a clay course, that has put together a higher skill level of targets. With some of the courses I've seen, yea, I understand your point. You have to realize though, there are many levels of targets to be set. The majority of them, are set on the soft side. Why? Folks want to see hits!! No one wants to go out and burn 100 rounds for 42 hits. Not fun. Not fun for fund raisers, thus, little funds get raised. Yet, for the shooter that wants to be challanged, that is available.

Current machines, terrains, and target setting skills can abosolutely split two springing teal. They can surely make them drop, give a visual of going one way while going another. Can surely make a pair leave the pond faster than any canvasback could do. Barrell roll? LOL. I saw Straightsixes himself, set a target at the Western Regional couple years back. A battue (small skiny clay) thrown at 30 yards (which looked like 50) off a tower straight right to left. Ahh, 35 yards high. It twisted, and when the target got in front of the cage it dissapeared. The trick in hitting it, was the proper swing and pulling the trigger when it left your sight. Target setters, can do things you wouldn't believe. Also....its damn fun.

What about the fact that clay shooters always shoot from a standing position with a shouldered weapon. Oh yeah, they get to call "Pull" to indicate they are ready to shoot. LAME....there is no comparrison!!!!! Clay shooting is on the shooters terms, where as hunting is on the birds/ mother natures terms. Its a controlled environment vs. Unknown.

Well, when youre shooting clays shoot from a low gun position. Like....fitasc style. Know what fitasc is? Whole lot different than the typical clay game....and will humble the most accomplished shooters.

Ok....so its lame when you work in a pair. You see the approach, you have the hole set. You stand up easy and they flair. I mean, everyone here shoots em feet down, right?

Clay shooting is a game, and a fun game at that. And yea, one calls pull. Kinda like, take 'em. What you also fail to mention is, yea, though you know where the target is coming from you are forced to decided where to break the target. Sometimes you have short windows. Sometimes the target setter makes you break it in a place that you shouldn't. Shooters might not give much thought into setting the second shot up, just hitting the first. Yea....then.....hit 8 or 10 in row. I mean heck, since its so controlled and you have hit 4, the other 4 should really be that easy, right??

It would be like rock climbing vs indoor climbing at the gym. Great workout but its not the real thing.


What is meant by, its not the real thing? Whats the real thing? We're talking about shooting, hitting targets. There are fundementals and techniques to shooting a shotgun, whether your targets are clays or ducks. I know, you're saying the real thing is ducks. Well, ducks are real I'd agree, but I'm talking about shooting. And if anyone doesn't think shooting some sort of clay game won't help they're field shooting, they are either just engraining poor techniques or is just a heck of a good natural shot.

I hope everyone can enjoy, and shoot well.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby marsh-mello » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:19 am

I think these sorts of debates between clay shooters of all types and hunters is all a bunch of poohey...I do believe that shooting of any kind will improve ones ability. However they are totally different disciplines and the guys who are coming on here and trying to lecture the mostly hunting fraternity about how "special" and transferable those skills are wasting your time. Folks who do both generally are not committed to anything other than going out and having a bit of fun with their friends or attending an event a couple of times a season which revolves around these types of shoots.

We do have a small cadre of individuals who do this and are engaged at a depth where the small things matter more than others...like psychological mind sets and mental fortitude. No one is interested in the small obtrusive details of what makes you self proclaimed guys so great at what you do...and at times it seems as if you try to equate and transfer those attributes to a degree in which they do not apply unless someone wants to progress in that particular discipline.

If a guy wants to improve his shooting he should shoot more period even if it throwing clays from a plastic hand thrower or even shooting clays with his pump gun to gain further skills, especially if it's his only gun or just to have fun, who cares. It shouldn't be any of anyone's business or concern unless someone asks you or unless you want to offer your assistance, which I am more than sure would be appreciated under those conditions. I also never hear guys who they might not even know lecturing folks at the "duck shack" about these virtues either in the same vein, that would probably be received with as much enthusiasm as being called a high dollar shooter. If it is not important for a guy to shoot 49 out of 50 targets or if a guy can hit 199 out of 200 great and yes they both can still be a good wing shots and no one should think the less or more of anyone.(best thing someone previously said here) I believe this whole labeling thing actually swings both directions and everyone should all recognize that before they start any "crusade" of opinion or advice. Heck I always thought if I could at least hit 50% at the clay courses and I have three shots while hunting the birds never stood a chance... :yes:

I've been around shooting ranges since before I could walk...I've benefitted from that experience. I haven't set millions of targets except as a "trap boy" which was my first job over many years as kid and they all flew about the same with different angles and sometimes screwing them up or down except for the doubles. I have seen guys who could shoot rounds through those old model 12's faster than any automatic ever could way back when, but these new auto guns have come along way since then too. I have friends of my family who are state champions, I have members of my family who could be because they shot better than those who continued in the sport...so what. I really enjoy shooting sporting clays but I only do it perhaps once a year with some friends. Do what serves you best. Have fun and if you are having trouble there are probably many people who might be able to help in any manner of ways from gun fitting and offering to let you shoot different gun choices to different types shooting practice, some of which you can do on your own cheaply.

Good luck to everyone and good shooting in whatever venue you choose.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby slowshooter » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:24 am

First off,
Thanks Kevin! Learning to shoot is a gradual process like learning a language, which best taken small bites. Hopefully I can reach what I think it my best potential shooting before time takes it's toll on my few strengths.

Marsh,
For most guys that shoot a ton and who are working on their skills? It is tough to explain the applicability of particular attributes that are developed in shot selection or even set up. Why? Because it's simply personal development and what works for me might not work for thee. But, I can't deny that I've become better in the field than I once was and that can be directly attributed to the amount that I've shot with something other than a "gonna go have fun" attitude.

The reality for me (maybe I'm an oddball) is that learning is tough. Sure it's easy to capture a fact or intellectually understand the best method to shoot a particular presentation of bird or clay. But understanding what works better doesn't automatically equate to performing better…. Performing better and making that instinctive takes a ton of trigger time.

Also, many guys out there don't understand what is really available to them in terms of shooting disciplines. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to explain the difference between FITASC and skeet or sporting and trap…. And that's to other duck hunters!

So, I don't believe that most guys that shoot are proclaiming much of anything. We shoot better than we used to shoot. And if accused of being religious, I bet that most guys that shoot a lot of practice under any discipline would be happy to take on that particular label as long as they could "save" a lousy shot from becoming so discouraged after shooting two boxes of clays for 3 ducks - that they quit the sport entirely.

Let's face it, it's a sh!t deal for guys that shoot a lot.

You don't get respect for dropping the birds because you've worked on scouting, calling, decoy placement, concealment, location and finally are able to close the deal with a single shot… Folks just assume that you're just punching the birds out at some ungodly distance - because you've spent hours and hours practicing "killing them long". The reality is that the contrary is actually true. The better shooters don't take stupid long pokes at birds or otherwise fulfill whatever contrived idea that non-clay busters might have… Good shooters try to bring birds in tight and make their best effort to close the deal solidly.

I started shooting clays solely to become better at dropping a duck or a goose. Along the way, discovered that measuring and managing progress with disciplined practice and competition was helping the shooting get better. Because of that betterment, do I recommend that people shoot more? Based on what I've see at the refuges over the years, it sure as hell couldn't hurt.

Right now the only thing I'm shooting is a skeet league because about 4 hours a week is all I have in terms of time that I can sacrifice. But if I had more time I would be out there every weekend grinding away at sporting clays, trap and even more skeet to make sure that the next time I'm faced with a duck or goose - I don't lift my head, drop my barrel, lead like I'm shooting at an F-14 or shoot behind like a chumpapotomus.

Do I think that taking on the challenge of doing more than fun shooting is for everyone? No. I don't.

Most folks don't want to make that effort. Some have strengths elsewhere and others just hate the idea that they have to fail their way to success when shooting… All the missed shots when starting out is much too painful for those guys. Some just don't want to spend the money - even though a good shooting plan doesn't have to be expensive.

So does simply shooting more, willy nilly, automatically help? No, not always because sometimes those that start with really bad habits up actually get worse as their habits are cemented. I guess it's like learning anything - sure you can be an auto didact at the range - but that doesn't mean you'll actually end up being a better shot.

In the end, if folks have fun missing birds that's fine by me. I'm going to have fun if I miss as well… Although, I'll continue to try having even more fun - by making my best efforts to hit the birds more often than not.

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby marsh-mello » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:00 am

slowshooter wrote: Performing better and making that instinctive takes a ton of trigger time.

Also, many guys out there don't understand what is really available to them in terms of shooting disciplines. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to explain the difference between FITASC and skeet or sporting and trap…. And that's to other duck hunters!

slow


I think most folks don't give a crap about what FITASC is ...I know I don't and when people start dropping those bombs around it becomes sort of a slam in the way it's presented and perceived at least for me and from other folks response an elitist issue. If honestly and sincerely it is not intended in that manner and I know it wouldn't from you, just know it comes off that way. Hence the high dollar comments and the defensive positions taken by those who delve as deep as you and others have done. I do know just the ammo expense and the range fees are out of this father of four with two kids in college's budget. I do see the benefits of shooting and do not think the result of years of practice shooting will lead to the detriment of cementing bad habits. The subtle psychological, analytical, and dissecting nature of playing clay games at a high level are not the skills which attribute as directly as asserted IMHO. While I do not disagree they offer some transcendent benefits what they do most is lead to getting better at the game. Proper gun fit, and keeping ones head down on the stock and learning lead are so fundamental they do not need the immersion in 10000 rounds "FITASC" to learn. Besides there is no guarantee one will receive any additional instruction nor need any if they are participating in clay shooting or shooting on their own. Tons of trigger time will help anyone and every target gives feedback every time even the feathered ones.

I guess I never understood the dominant eye thing either...LMAO! :oops:

People shooting too high IMHO is the single detrimental issue facing most in the field...I agree letting them get close is a sign of ones experience and without a doubt produces success.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:41 am

These Games you speak so negative about help in determining distance and forward allowances of the shot . This is where
most hunters are deficient at , shooting at targets/birds way beyond their loads capabilities not only theirs ?

Range time is very important to a hunter , with more there instead of the golf Course there will be more birds in the future !

New Guns and Boots don't make you a hunter and it's easier for the birds to see you........so go practice your shooting ! :lol3:
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby blackdog58 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:54 am

Yea Ray, I'd agree. Most here don't care. Thats the thing though, most. That means, someone else does. Might be less, way less, but somebody.

I used to ask Wendell (Carlson) when I was going through his instruction on calling why was it that at times the system was boring as heck, seemed to split hairs, and took total commitment. Wouldn't that chase folks off, after all....its just calling ducks.

He said he understood what I was saying. He was commited to the best system and instructional method possible, and that sure it isn't for everybody. But if one kept the goals low, the instruction so utterly basic, the guy that wants to really get good gets screwed. So it goes with shooting. I am by no means defensive (not saying you meant me) in any way. Just putting it out there, and maybe there is a person that wants to get good....or better. Or just starting out, getting their kids started, and wants to get it off on the right foot.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby straightsixes » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:14 am

Interesting topics coming from this.

Staying more on topic of OP... I agree with Marsh Mello... the most damage I see to guns (and shooters) is from the 3.5 inch ammunition which has the high recoil. Hence my apprehension to use Hypersonic Specials. If the high speed/high mass loads can shear metal parts from a device that is manufactured for controlling essentially explosive forces... what do you think is happening to the shooter?

Sliding off topic:

I used to adamantly defend the practice of shooting clays in the off season (heck during season to stay tuned up) but now as a range owner/target setter... I've come to realize it doesn't matter... the average joe has no clue about the modernization of clays and how it can be extremely bird like NOR do they want to hear about it. Thats OK.

Shoot for entertainment. Shoot because its fun to watching things go boom. Shoot because you like to watch orange clays turn to black "vapor".

Is there a subset of shooters out there who routinely see very waterfowl like presentations or even those that could be significantly harder? Absolutely. Are there "games" that are essentially as close to hunting as possible (two shots at single targets, complete variety, no practice pairs, no calling pull with immediate release, etc.) YES there are those games, and the people that excel at those games are VERY good wingshooters.

However if your clays club caters solely to that clientelle they will go broke shortly. Why? Even though all shots would be within 40 yards they could still be too hard for the average joe. We all want to leave with a smile on our face and hitting a bunch of simpler targets is usually the answer.

Very few shooters actually "work out" on a problem presentation. I have the only wireless course on the west coast, where someone can start at whatever yardage they want and work beside, back, behind etc to about whatever they can do (safely) out to 100+ yards on upwards of 70 machines. I can count on one hand the number of people who have done that in the last 5 years. With that being said... those in that handful hit just about everything they shoot at (live birds or clay targets).

Does working out and practicing help... absolutely. In those lessons we learn about our body's response to recoil. We learn about visual focus, slowing down the feel of a bird, etc. But for a variety of reasons, its a committment few want to make. Heck my father still gets nervous about shooting around others and possibly "failing" and I own the dang course. Thats OK. It doesn't matter. I still think he is great even though he would rather watch Dodger baseball than shoot clays. :hammer: With that being said he does love to watch his grandkids smoke live birds and targets.

Take home message:
Shoot because you should enjoy it. Some people enjoy working hard and improving personally, others just enjoy not being at work that day and yet others just enjoy smelling powder burn. And its just fine to NOT like clay shooting. Its far easier to think up excuses for misses than practicing for hits. Thats OK.

Does practicing good waterfowl-like targets make you a better hunter? If done properly, absolutely. Its just that not all facilities can cater to that customer, because easy targets within 15 yards are more profitable in the long run than a "workout" area with ducky presentations. Heck no club in their right mind would throw incoming overhead targets because the liability (of broken targets hitting the customer or their gear) far outweighs the desires of the hunter. However, we all know that we need to make that shot 40-50 times during hunting season.

If you ever want to practice shooting in high winds, just hit me with a PM... the extra high strength wind turbine is almost always on in the spring. We might even set up a high incomer for you, all you have to do is ask.

Have a good off season, no matter what you do to fill the time.
Last edited by straightsixes on Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:20 pm

After running up and down the Pacific Coast shooting Clay targets I would like to know where you're located ? If I've
never been there I want to go there . This is the practice a lot of us want and do appreciate a course that that will
accommodate our needs to shoot difficult targets !

PM me Please ? Thanks
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Calikev » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:44 pm

marsh-mello wrote: best thing someone previously said here) I believe this whole labeling thing actually swings both directions and everyone should all recognize that before they start any "crusade" of opinion or advice.


That was my point about stereotyping and labeling. It can work both ways. The important thing is to steer clear of it. To find what works best for you and stick with it. If one doesn't need to spend time on the range to improve their shooting then there is nothing wrong with that at all. More power to them for having got it down.

On the other hand.......I would think that if one is unhappy with their ability to hit birds in the field then they will seek out improvement. That improvement is best served on a clay range. One can focus on the things they need there during the non-hunting times to gain improvement. It may not be great for everyone but I can't deny the fact it will help improve most everyone. Especially if they have a good coach that can help them work on the elements they need to work on. On the range you can shoot at thousands of targets if you want to and that lends the shooter to getting better. Most of those skills transfer over to bird shooting believe it or not!

I agree most guys on this forum won't be looking for the incremental improvements that dedicated clay shooters look for. It is a different game in that regard as those guys shoot for different reasons than those other folks. Some folks shoot clays casually just for fun or for some prep to get ready for the bird season. In most of those cases they aren't looking for competition nor are they over concerned with dropping a few targets here or there.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby LeakyW8ers » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:09 pm

3200 man wrote:After running up and down the Pacific Coast shooting Clay targets I would like to know where you're located ? If I've
never been there I want to go there . This is the practice a lot of us want and do appreciate a course that that will
accommodate our needs to shoot difficult targets !

PM me Please ? Thanks


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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby slowshooter » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:37 pm

marsh-mello wrote:
slowshooter wrote: Performing better and making that instinctive takes a ton of trigger time.

Also, many guys out there don't understand what is really available to them in terms of shooting disciplines. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to explain the difference between FITASC and skeet or sporting and trap…. And that's to other duck hunters!

slow


I think most folks don't give a crap about what FITASC is ...I know I don't and when people start dropping those bombs around it becomes sort of a slam in the way it's presented and perceived at least for me and from other folks response an elitist issue. If honestly and sincerely it is not intended in that manner and I know it wouldn't from you, just know it comes off that way.


Yeah, it probably comes off that way. Mainly because it's tough to see emotion online. Thanks for the pass - but a lot of guys here don't know me personally so there's that… Talking about stuff like shooting is like word salad to most guys. If some of the shooters here talk about FITASC, COMPAQ, SuperSporting or Flurries then get whipped up about Sporting, fun shoots and Skeet or do loops over a specific speed, shell, gun or doodad? I completely agree that it could be perceived as snobbery...

But, the reality is that no one that I know goes out and shoots 7 days a week and hits every skeet, sporting and trap tournament. Even if I won the super lotto I wouldn't be able to afford the time to do that - as much as I would like to.

Most guys that I know do have to make financial choices around where they are going to spend their ducats because no one has an endless supply of them. Shooting can be wildly expensive but budgeted well it really doesn't have to be - and the learning curve can closely match the guys that throw down big cash for lessons and fancy pants guns.

That goes back to my original comment about small bites. And this may sound elitist but it's just common sense. No one and I mean no one is going to improve their shooting by going out the weekend before dove season to "practice" hitting clays. All it will do is let them remember how to work the gun and knock dust off the barrel. For the guys that already can shoot it's useful but having been out there I can tell you that for many it's a futile effort.

If folks went out once a week to shoot a round of skeet which runs about 7 or 8 bucks - by the end of the summer they would probably increase the hits on the short shots by 30%. Those sporting clay ranges that charge for 100 rounds? If people walked in and said "I have to work on a single presentation - I'm probably only going to shoot about 25 or 30 rounds" that range is just going to treat you exactly like everyone else. They don't give a crap how much you shoot. They know that over time that you'll get better and return to grow skills.

I've done that plenty of times because I know that some days shooting a case of shells isn't going to help me a great deal, especially if I'm struggling with a particular problem. On those days when I have an open mind and need to put another presentation or three into the memory banks? You bet I'll shoot 100 or more just to touch all the corners of my limited game. Those days, and those between them are are great fun for me… And I get something out of all of them, because I go out with a very distinct plan as to what I want to accomplish. Sometimes I even write it down to keep myself on track.

Shooting doesn't have to be a financial drain at all - most of the work I do is in my living room with a mag light wrapped in tape dropped into the barrel so I can practicing my mount and swing, and manage where I'll drop the pattern. That costs me 2 AA batteries. The only thing I have to worry about is my wife coming in and telling me to cut it out because Jeopardy is on. :lol3:

Hence the high dollar comments and the defensive positions taken by those who delve as deep as you and others have done. I do know just the ammo expense and the range fees are out of this father of four with two kids in college's budget.


I'm totally with you on this one. I'm not Creosus - that's why I do the majority of my practice in little dribs and drabs. It's not just the money - it's whether or not your kids need you around to do stuff like teach them about the Ottoman Empire or quadratic equations. Moms and Dads do have it tough and kids can't eat clays. If there's no extra money in the budget to shoot. You don't. If there is money to buy three cups of coffee at starbucks a week? I'll drink cheap-ass tea instead and go buy a round of skeet. Sometimes choices are easy, sometimes tough and as a parent - sometimes (depending on money or grades) you don't have choices at all.

I do see the benefits of shooting and do not think the result of years of practice shooting will lead to the detriment of cementing bad habits. The subtle psychological, analytical, and dissecting nature of playing clay games at a high level are not the skills which attribute as directly as asserted IMHO.


Maybe for some. Personal experience here was that I had to rewrite everything I thought I knew because some things that were foundation points for me were simply not constructed right. I simply couldn't get better without doing some deconstruction.

While I do not disagree they offer some transcendent benefits what they do most is lead to getting better at the game. Proper gun fit, and keeping ones head down on the stock and learning lead are so fundamental they do not need the immersion in 10000 rounds "FITASC" to learn.


I think that there's a little conflation going on. Because guy shoot clays regularly to better their game doesn't mean those guys shoot lots of clays all the time. Because some guys shoot a local tournament doesn't mean they also go to the US Open, The Nationals, The Gamaliel Cup, the Latin American open or the Dubai Open either. You don't have to spend a 75k a year to learn and people shouldn't be thinking that at all. If you are competitive by nature and want to see how your skills stack up against like shooters though? Tournaments are a great albeit pricey way to find out pretty quick. You don't have to shoot them all or any for that matter. But for the guys that do shoot and talk about it? It's no more elitist then talking about having a backyard barbecue. You do it, it's fun and then because it's fun you do it again later on.


If you want to get better you shoot. If you want to get better faster you take instruction from someone that knows how to explain the fundamentals, and that can tell you how to apply them after they have diagnosed your swing. Then, you start off by trying to shoot everything inside of 30 yards. Spend a little money here, and a little time there, and after a few years suddenly you'll recognize that you aren't going through 3 cases of ungodly expensive "Thunderbomb Long-distance McCrusher" shells a year to bring home a whopping 50 ducks. That day you'll see that you are shooting less than a case a year of regular old duck loads - and have 90 birds on the tally.

Yes, learning will certainly cost some money - but over the long haul whoever makes the effort will recoup some of those costs. Look at it this way, three cases of Hypersonic 3.5s will cost some guy 930 bucks. Not including shipping... That's some seriously expensive crap right there.

What if the same guy buys one case of estates for 100 bucks - then uses some of the money left over to get a lesson, and follows the lesson by shooting 25 rounds every couple of weeks for the 6 months leading up to the season? Someone is going to benefit and it won't be the ammo companies.

Besides there is no guarantee one will receive any additional instruction nor need any if they are participating in clay shooting or shooting on their own. Tons of trigger time will help anyone and every target gives feedback every time even the feathered ones.


There are no guarantees for anything… But if folks ask for advice at a tournament - they'll get it… They just have to make sure they ask someone that can give them answers that are applicable.

I guess I never understood the dominant eye thing either...LMAO! :oops:

People shooting too high IMHO is the single detrimental issue facing most in the field...I agree letting them get close is a sign of ones experience and without a doubt produces success.


Yup. It's no secret that shells are marketed to drive folks to shoot ridiculously long. Guys that believe that long shooting is made easy because of additional speed and recoil are just fed into a vicious cycle.

This is the merry-go-round they ride... They buy a shell on the promise it shoots long. Shooting long with the shell lowers the percentage of hits because long shots are dumb. Then by chance they hit one bird out of 10 shots then all the unibrows in the blind with them yell "Yippee!" and then they all go buy more of those expensive shells.

When you add up the variables such as shell specifications, distances and percentage of successful DRT shots, seem like shells such as Hypersonic are crack for the math impaired. That's some real success on the part of the marketeers, convincing people they will do better with something that actually lowers shooting performance. I applaud the ammo company marketing teams on that effort because it's wicked, and I like that. :lol3:
Last edited by slowshooter on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:04 pm

wow.. that's a lot of reading up there.

Havn't been on in a bit and buzzed through all the posts here,

I do agree with most everything, and thinking along the lines of labeling.. It is safe to say that though both practices have transferable skill, they are not the same and shouldn't really be used as comparisons to each other. Ducks are ducks and clays are clays...

The nice thing about clays is you can repeat the shot, practice the shot again and again until you are so good at it you can do it blindfolded.

The neat thing about ducks is you don't know what they'll do... ever. They come in low, flare into the sun or moon screwing up your retina permanently then buzz around your head 3 or 4 times and then just as it looks like they're effing off they drop in feet first. You only get the once chance and then that specific moment in your duck hunting career is gone forever an non-repeatable and no one believes you anyways. Plus you can eat them.

It's like comparing the differences in driving an F1 car and a semi-trailer truck... it's all the same, but it's totally different and one goes by so, so much faster.

Mugz.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby marsh-mello » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:56 pm

Thanks guys for the response...those were some really good positive posts. I wouldn't mind shooting a round or two with any of you guys. Hell it's entirely possible I might even learn something... :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Last edited by marsh-mello on Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:57 pm

The one thing about shooting odd angle distance clay targets is they are smaller than most ducks so , you shoot a load
and choke that will give you a hotter core in the pattern . Thinking what Muz is saying , yes there are second shots at birds
that can be very tricky but , we have learned to kill with the first shot while it's in the Break /Kill zone by knowing how effective
our experience is at that range . I'm not putting down anyone as far as good gun pointers / hunters , if you know your ability
at different ranges and are loaded with the right size shot along with understanding your pattern , you are most likely successful .

This clay target business is for understanding and gaining knowledge of target/Bird speed along with finding the line and
Shooting the lead....... :yes: It all help's to save ammo :lol3:
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby slowshooter » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:48 am

3200 man wrote: It all help's to save ammo :lol3:


And these days that's not chicken feed!
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby marsh-mello » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:16 pm

I don't know if I would say it's "saving ammo"? Perhaps ultimately making its use more efficient? No one is saving an ammo when they go target shooting, they are using it all up and having fun at the same time I imagine.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:37 pm

To tell you the truth , I get more enjoyment out of killing a limit of birds with the least amount of shells than I do shooting
400 clay targets in a day . I say this because of the practice on the range has paid-off , when I hunting for something to eat !
Shooting competition targets just shows you 2 things , # 1 is how good you really are and # 2 is how deep you have to dig
into your hunting money :yes: but , with experience and good form , you might get some money back :lol3: :lol3:
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby slowshooter » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:54 am

3200 man wrote:To tell you the truth , I get more enjoyment out of killing a limit of birds with the least amount of shells than I do shooting
400 clay targets in a day . I say this because of the practice on the range has paid-off , when I hunting for something to eat !
Shooting competition targets just shows you 2 things , # 1 is how good you really are and # 2 is how deep you have to dig
into your hunting money :yes: but , with experience and good form , you might get some money back :lol3: :lol3:


Same here. Having been that guy that shot a lot of shells and didn't have much to show for it on the strap. I'm much happier not going through as many shells as I used to - and ending up with a few more birds.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Dbag » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:39 am

Regarding sporting clays and wild bird shooting. I shot sporting clays competitively in the late 80s and early 90s on a regular basis and during that time I was lucky enough to have the time and finances to travel the country to learn from some of the top coaches. During that time there was a variety of different techniques, swing thru, pull away, sustained lead, soft focus to hard focus etc. But Ive got to say the absolute best instructor, who has since passed away,was Chuck Dryke. The first two days of his instruction were nothing but working on visual acuity. He told me that most good wild bird shooters had great eye focus not on the bird but a very specific part of the bird and were able to consistently hit the target because they have subconsciously trained themselves to focus like this. There has got to be something to this when people watched him fix, clear and and ink dot 5 rounds on a wobble trap machine throwing international speed while borrowing observers guns. His philosophy was not the gun, not the ammo,not shooting sight pictures, but the well trained, focus eyes.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:45 am

Yes , that's one of the disciplines a guy learns on the clay courses , how to focus on a target , along with many other
techniques ( as you've mentioned ) but , the one that works the best is , Confidence in making the shot ! When you understand
what needs to happen , to do this , you know you can do it more times than Not ! We all know our foot position in the mud
can alter our swing and with window shots , between standing vegetation can be more instinctive than skill but , once these
are learned on the clays course , you will be better prepared to put success on your side . This is the same for looong targets
( being clay or live birds ) with a good educated guess at the distance and a good feel for forward allowance , you understand
how much time it takes for the shot charge to get to the target and how to compensate for the wind , that's blowing .

I don't mind limiting-out with 10 or 12 shells while hunting with other hunters , as I have just as much fun shooting their
cripples in the air , playing back-up after I'm done , because I know how !

With practice , you could too !
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