Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

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Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby Booches » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:53 pm

Missouri has some of the best looking and well managed waterfowl areas. Kansas areas seem to be good at times but need a little help. Missouri has flooded corn, Kansas has flooded cockleburs. When will areas like the Marais des cygne try to add acreage to the area that is flooded. Units like F and G seem to only get 1/2 the water they need. There are lots of acres that sit choked in Reeds Canary grass, marestail or ragweed. Bob Brown, Four Rivers and Grand Pass are all premiere waterfowl areas that pull thousands of birds to Missouri. Step up Kansas
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby billythekid » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:01 pm

Missouri does a good job, but you have to deal with all the bumpkins over there.
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby T Man » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:31 pm

Missouri has a ton more money going into their fish and game departments than Kansas does. I was told at one time it is a half percent or half cent of their sales tax goes into the program.

Neosho WMA is so poorly planted this year because they couldnt get the implements into the fields to plant this year because of all the rain we had this spring.
Botiz630 wrote:How much does an apostrophe cost down south? Must be quite a bit, based on how sparingly you use them.
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby TBS » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:33 pm

Booches wrote:Missouri has some of the best looking and well managed waterfowl areas. Kansas areas seem to be good at times but need a little help. Missouri has flooded corn, Kansas has flooded cockleburs. When will areas like the Marais des cygne try to add acreage to the area that is flooded. Units like F and G seem to only get 1/2 the water they need. There are lots of acres that sit choked in Reeds Canary grass, marestail or ragweed. Bob Brown, Four Rivers and Grand Pass are all premiere waterfowl areas that pull thousands of birds to Missouri. Step up Kansas



Kansas officials don't care about habitat and hunting conditions. They only care about marketing KS outdoor resources to the non-resident and hope to collect on license fees and "stimulate" the rural economies by bringing in thousands from across state lines. They even made it official when Governor Brownback and Secretary Robin Jennison changed the Dept name to Wildlife, Parks, and TOURISM. I doubt KS will ever have anything remotely close to Missouri in regards to public resources. First, our budget is a fraction of what Missouri has, and our elected officials give little consideration to the resource itself. They are much too focused on the non-resident dollar to give 2 shakes about developing and expanding habitat.
IF I AGREED WITH YOU, WE'D BOTH BE WRONG.
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby radfordc » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:52 pm

Everything you say is true about the difference between Kansas WMAs and Missouri CAs. BUT, your chance of getting to hunt in one of the MO CAs is usually pretty thin. They typically turn away as many party's of hunters as they admit on a given day especially on weekends and holidays. The blessing and curse of being wonderful hunting areas.

Here in Kansas, even with the sometimes too many hunters, I've killed lots of ducks in the WMAs this year. But, I may never get all the cockleburrs out of my stuff.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if all the WMAs were managed for ducks like those in MO and while we're at it add another 100% of acreage to each of them. Oh to dream!
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby MNH » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:29 am

Having just moved back to the state, I've had that buring question for years. I had thought Maris Des Cygne was going to start planting corn in a few areas. I actually thought they tried, spilled corn and then it became a baited area?? But MO has the template, just duplicate it. Plant the corn, id blind sites and end hunting in the early afternoon. Have majority daily blind sites reserved for in staters and daily drawing for rest. Or like MO & their lottery system. That would make world class public hunting, just like MO.

I really think the MO Dept of Wildlife have influence the mallard migration pattern. That and the upper -middle mighty miss being turned into a giant shipping canal with minimal feed areas. I think more ducks would start migrating south from NW MO vs hanging a left and the MO & heading east. C'mon Kansas, its not that difficult, if lowly MO can do it, so can KS.
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby mudpack » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:53 am

radfordc wrote:Wouldn't it be wonderful if all the WMAs were managed for ducks like those in MO and while we're at it add another 100% of acreage to each of them. Oh to dream!


Yes, it would be wonderful. It would also be impossible.
The WMA's can't add acreage unless someone wants to SELL acreage. The guys who own the land around the WMA's have a gold mine and they aren't about to sell it. Only thing that would change the situation would be "eminent domain"....and we're fortunate that it isn't being invoked.

Understand, guys, that the present conditions on our refuges are the result of the weather we've been experiencing for the last three years.....i.e. drought. Without water, the managers can do very little to grow the flora the ducks need. Actually, the food available at some refuges this year was surprisingly abundant. The refuges I hunt were very, very good until ice-up.
As far as modeling our system after Missouri's, from what I understand I'll take our way over theirs. As hunters, we seem to have much more freedom than they do.
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby B.E.Nelli » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:22 pm

mudpack wrote:
radfordc wrote:Wouldn't it be wonderful if all the WMAs were managed for ducks like those in MO and while we're at it add another 100% of acreage to each of them. Oh to dream!


Yes, it would be wonderful. It would also be impossible.
The WMA's can't add acreage unless someone wants to SELL acreage. The guys who own the land around the WMA's have a gold mine and they aren't about to sell it. Only thing that would change the situation would be "eminent domain"....and we're fortunate that it isn't being invoked.

Understand, guys, that the present conditions on our refuges are the result of the weather we've been experiencing for the last three years.....i.e. drought. Without water, the managers can do very little to grow the flora the ducks need. Actually, the food available at some refuges this year was surprisingly abundant. The refuges I hunt were very, very good until ice-up.
As far as modeling our system after Missouri's, from what I understand I'll take our way over theirs. As hunters, we seem to have much more freedom than they do.



More freedom in what way? Do elaborate please.
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby mudpack » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:25 pm

Do we have lotteries? Do we have shooting ending at noon? Do we have assigned blinds? Reserved blinds?

Yes, we have the possibility of crowding and being set up on. Which is the lesser of two evils?

I'll take the freedom to hunt any day I want, all day, any area that my scouting tells me will be good. That's what I meant.

Not everyone will agree with me, but as someone who lived and hunted many years in a state that tightly controlled their waterfowling in the manner just described, I'll take the Kansas way every time.
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby B.E.Nelli » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:52 pm

There are plenty of public places with none of the restrictions you just listed. We have it all over here ;-)
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby radfordc » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:10 pm

mudpack wrote:
radfordc wrote:Wouldn't it be wonderful if all the WMAs were managed for ducks like those in MO and while we're at it add another 100% of acreage to each of them. Oh to dream!


Yes, it would be wonderful. It would also be impossible.
The WMA's can't add acreage unless someone wants to SELL acreage. The guys who own the land around the WMA's have a gold mine and they aren't about to sell it. Only thing that would change the situation would be "eminent domain"....and we're fortunate that it isn't being invoked.


Many of the existing WMAs could increase the amount of huntable acreage by constructing new water control structures, dredging silted in marshes, and by pumping water into existing areas that don't get enough natural rainfall. I suppose if we ever get back to "normal" rainfall amounts things will vastly improve...or maybe bone dry is the new normal.
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby radfordc » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:15 pm

mudpack wrote:Not everyone will agree with me, but as someone who lived and hunted many years in a state that tightly controlled their waterfowling in the manner just described, I'll take the Kansas way every time.


I would even be happy with having a few select "quality" marshes being tightly controlled. Benedict Bottoms is an example. While the habitat there has never been quality, there are times when the hunting is spectacular. The drawing system gives everyone a shot at hunting there even if you can't hunt it more than once every year or so.
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby 007 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:47 am

I'm with mudpack on this. I want to get up early, go to a public spot I have in mind. If that spot is taken, go to plan B - different spot. No lotteries. Sure, there are frustrations to be had at times but those tend to be few and far between in my experience. For the most part, guys (and girls) tend to spread themselves out in the marsh appropriately.

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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby cluckmeister » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:31 am

007 wrote:I'm with mudpack on this. I want to get up early, go to a public spot I have in mind. If that spot is taken, go to plan B - different spot. No lotteries. Sure, there are frustrations to be had at times but those tend to be few and far between in my experience. For the most part, guys (and girls) tend to spread themselves out in the marsh appropriately.

007


Ill third that opinion. I don't want the state involved telling me when and where I can hunt
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby cyoung24 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:52 pm

Basically this same topic was posted a few months ago. Some guys need to do a little research before bad mouthing so e of the WA's in KS. First off I would not want a draw system or losing the places at say 1pm. First off the size of the areas would greatly limit the number of people that could hunt, a lot less than MO. Also we all know that drawings would not be limited to residents only. So we would maybe get to hunt those areas once or twice a year and if your a weekend hunter like me possibly never get to hunt it. If we closed all the areas at 1pm they would be unbelievably crowded without a draw system. Everybody that was gonna hunt the afternoon is now forced to hunt the morning, essentially doubling the number of hunters. I would much rather get to the marsh at 10am and hunt the rest of the day than fight the morning crowd.

Ok, then you say just make the WA's as big as MO's, easy enough right? Impossible. MO has had a sales tax in place for decades that goes directly to the Dept of Conservaton. That means EVERYTHING that is sold in MO has a portion of the taxes go to the MDC. On top of that MO has over twice the population of KS and way more tourism. I read that the gravel budget for the roads in 4 Rivers was more than the entire budget for Marias des Cygnes. So propose a tax like that for Kansas? Fat chance. To start it would never come close to the income of MO simply because of population and the size of the state's economy. Also good luck passing a tax that goes to recreational areas in the economy and era we're in. The MO tax was passed along time ago in a much different time and there's talk of repealing it now. Overall Comparing Kansas to Missouriis like comparing apples to oranges. We just happen to border MO so we see it.

Finally I'm tired of people ripping on the managers of the KS WA's and no I'm not one of the mangers. Everywhere I hunt has fantastic habitat ecspecially when their hands are tied by budget constraints and politics. From conversations I've had many of them are on our side. Yes there is not flooded corn but there has been in the past and it was either too wet to plant or flooded out then we had a long dry period that prevented what did get planted from growing. Plus I think it's overrated. People think flooded corn is the only food ducks eat and the only way to hunt them I believe due to hunting movies that depict it. I'll take flooded millet or smartweed anyday. I think the main reason people are upset when there's no flooded corn is that they have nowhere to hide easily. I wish there was some corn simply to keep the bucket squatters away from where I hunt.
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby fireman1293 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:55 pm

[quote="radfordc"]Everything you say is true about the difference between Kansas WMAs and Missouri CAs. BUT, your chance of getting to hunt in one of the MO CAs is usually pretty thin. They typically turn away as many party's of hunters as they admit on a given day especially on weekends and holidays. The blessing and curse of being wonderful hunting areas.



You couldn't be more wrong, and if I disliked internet scouting as much as guys on this forum from Kansas and Arkansas then I wouldn't bother telling you this.

Four Rivers WMA is 13,900 acres and well less than half of that is reserved for the draw system. The rest is open public, walk-in hunting. We have several others that have open walk-in hunting too. We also have several lakes that are great for waterfowl hunting as well.
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby mudpack » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:20 am

radfordc wrote:I would even be happy with having a few select "quality" marshes being tightly controlled.... The drawing system gives everyone a shot at hunting there even if you can't hunt it more than once every year or so.


Does everyone not have a shot at hunting there now, under the present system?
How does a system that restricts who hunts and when, give more opportunity?? :huh:
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby radfordc » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:37 pm

mudpack wrote:
radfordc wrote:I would even be happy with having a few select "quality" marshes being tightly controlled.... The drawing system gives everyone a shot at hunting there even if you can't hunt it more than once every year or so.


Does everyone not have a shot at hunting there now, under the present system?
How does a system that restricts who hunts and when, give more opportunity?? :huh:


Not more opportunity....more quality. Most of the complaints I hear are about too many hunters in too small an area. How do you solve that problem??
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby cluckmeister » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:25 pm

radfordc wrote:
mudpack wrote:
radfordc wrote:I would even be happy with having a few select "quality" marshes being tightly controlled.... The drawing system gives everyone a shot at hunting there even if you can't hunt it more than once every year or so.


Does everyone not have a shot at hunting there now, under the present system?
How does a system that restricts who hunts and when, give more opportunity?? :huh:


Not more opportunity....more quality. Most of the complaints I hear are about too many hunters in too small an area. How do you solve that problem??


That's a easy question to answer, make it illegal for anyone under 49 to duck and goose hunt or even be within in 25 miles of the local marsh LOL
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby mudpack » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:29 am

cluckmeister wrote:....... make it illegal for anyone under 49 to duck and goose hunt or even be within in 25 miles of the local marsh LOL


Perfect solution; only make it 59 unless accompanied by someone over 65. :biggrin:
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby ksfowler166 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:12 am

mudpack wrote:Do we have lotteries? Do we have shooting ending at noon? Do we have assigned blinds? Reserved blinds?

Yes, we have the possibility of crowding and being set up on. Which is the lesser of two evils?

I'll take the freedom to hunt any day I want, all day, any area that my scouting tells me will be good. That's what I meant.

Not everyone will agree with me, but as someone who lived and hunted many years in a state that tightly controlled their waterfowling in the manner just described, I'll take the Kansas way every time.

I totally agree mudpack we could use more water. The local marshes Perry and Clinton have excellent cover and habitat for ducks and hunters but there is no water in the pools. I would first blame the weather and then blame the KDWPT for not pumping or having broken machinery.
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby mudpack » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:40 am

radfordc wrote:Many of the existing WMAs could increase the amount of huntable acreage by constructing new water control structures, dredging silted in marshes, and by pumping water into existing areas that don't get enough natural rainfall. I suppose if we ever get back to "normal" rainfall amounts things will vastly improve...or maybe bone dry is the new normal.

Theoretically, that's possible. Practically, it is not. The reason? Mainly money.
Dredging, structures,, and pumps cost money. I know that Kansas WMA's are presently operating on thin budgets; all the money in their allocations is accounted for with present needs.
As far as pumping water; from where??? In Kansas, as in most western states, water is allocated. You can't just pump it out of a river/creek or out of a well whenever you want. I daresay the WMA's that have wells are already pumping all they legally can. There ain't no additional water available in Kansas.

You are right on one thing, rad; if we ever get back to "normal" rainfall amounts things will vastly improve...
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby radfordc » Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:52 pm

I'm hunting in Wa state today and got to see how they manage "Quality Hunting" sites. They have permanent blinds that are available 'first come, first gets it'. Each blind has a parking space with a numbered stake...first vehicle in the space gets the blind.
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby mudpack » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:05 am

radfordc wrote:I'm hunting in Wa state today and got to see how they manage "Quality Hunting" sites. They have permanent blinds that are available 'first come, first gets it'. Each blind has a parking space with a numbered stake...first vehicle in the space gets the blind.

I've hunted refuges that did it that way.
The ducks very quickly learn what those blinds mean.
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Re: Missouri versus Kansas Waterfowl Mgmt

Postby fireman1293 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:45 am

Kansas and Missouri have some of the same problems.

1-Some of the managers that are over certain WMAs don't know what they are doing as far as food,vegetation and building blinds.
(ie. Cheyenne Bottoms-who builds a concrete blind in the middle of nothing that is on a mound of dirt 5-8 ft. above the water level?)
2. Plant food and manage it for the entire season (different height of food for different times in the year, flood higher-later)
3. I'm ok with reservations for blinds on public land, but have a plan B close by for those that drive a long distance to hunt (ie. Schell-Osage in Mo has 4 rivers 15min away with 13,000 acres of all day walk in hunting.)
4. Get more property, I live in SWMO and we don't have any public marsh within 2 hours. I've been told its because of the soil conditions won't allow a marsh in our part of the state. Create more public access to the lakes and rivers for people to hunt. Its frustrating to have a public waterway but all the access to it is controlled by private land owners.
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