Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

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Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby duckdozer » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:19 am

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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby fowlhunter » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:49 am

You beat me to it! We've talked to the KDWP and they said this is the best way to go about this epidemic hitting Kansas public and WIHA ground. Public and WIHA grounds need to stay public and not for guides/outfitters to profit!
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby TomKat » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:29 pm

I signed it.
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby FowlPwrcat » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:08 pm

ditto
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby cluckmeister » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:41 pm

Grandson and I both signed. Hope to see something done about this other than just making them pay a small fee for a permit. The state could make it illegal for a guide to use public land and it wouldn't hurt my feelings
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby fowlhunter » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:29 pm

Thanks guys! So far there are 194 signatures and we started pushing it at 7:30 this am. Hopefully we get enough to get someone's attention.
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby RyanLane » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:13 pm

Everybody needs to send a link to your friends relatives whomever.

Then we need to get a draw like SD to happen.


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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby goodkarmarising » Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:48 am

Two things

If you are going to use a video for the petition don't use a video made by Tony Vandemore linked directly to Habitat Flats. That is exactly the things you'll are railing against with this petition. I am all for guides not being allowed to guide on public land and WIHA land in the state of Kansas but if it is private land then it is the farmer's or owners right to decide to lease the property, not allow anyone to hunt it or let who they choose to hunt on it.

I am not for a draw in Kansas for out of state hunters. It smacks against giving hunters the privelege of hunting. we should be encouraging respectful hunters instead of fighting each other all the time. The vast majority of us would complain and get bent out of shape if we were not allowed to take our guns across state lines, well I should be allowed to hunt in any state that allows it. Sometimes we as hunters are our own worst enemies when it comes to jealousy, eny and greed.
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby fowlhunter » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:17 am

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Petition ... _new_likes
Here is a facebook link to help spread the word.

What are the odds that Tony Vandemore uses public grounds? For what he charged I doubt very much he hunts anything that is private ground.

Also, this is not a petition about eliminating guide services. All that is trying to be accomplished is to keep them off public ground. Draws and days off aren't for to those whose schedules don't follow the norm. Again all that is trying to be done is to get the commissions attention. I've yet to talk to freelance Kansas residents who enjoy seeing guides profit off public ground.
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby ducknado » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:25 am

Habitat Flats owns a lot of ground, they lease/rent quite a bit AND they hunt public land...wherever the ducks are. We own some land not to far from them, and I've known one of the owners for several years. When we hunt in MO, we see them around off and on. However, they are the only guides we ever see out hunting like that.

I tend to agree with goodkarmarising about the draw thing. From what I've heard, SD is considering removing that rule in the near future (don't know what the source is, I heard that second hand). I like to hunt in other states, and when I move out of KS, I'd like to have the opportunity to come back and hunt with friends that still live here.

Do you really run into guides THAT often around here? Sorry, it's meant to be an honest question, not a fight starter. I've only been here 4 years, and have never seen a guide. Of course, I don't hit the big, popular areas, so that might be where they are all going?
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby cluckmeister » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:34 am

ducknado wrote:Habitat Flats owns a lot of ground, they lease/rent quite a bit AND they hunt public land...wherever the ducks are. We own some land not to far from them, and I've known one of the owners for several years. When we hunt in MO, we see them around off and on. However, they are the only guides we ever see out hunting like that.

I tend to agree with goodkarmarising about the draw thing. From what I've heard, SD is considering removing that rule in the near future (don't know what the source is, I heard that second hand). I like to hunt in other states, and when I move out of KS, I'd like to have the opportunity to come back and hunt with friends that still live here.

Do you really run into guides THAT often around here? Sorry, it's meant to be an honest question, not a fight starter. I've only been here 4 years, and have never seen a guide. Of course, I don't hit the big, popular areas, so that might be where they are all going?


It doesn't matter whether a hunter runs into a guide using state or federal property or not, In my humble opinion they shouldn't be able to profit from using land that's overseen by the government and paid for by tax payer dollars. Our areas are few and they don't need the added hunting pressure of a guide and his clients.
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby ducknado » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:40 am

There are TONS of people that use public land to make a living:

fishing guides
cattle ranchers
gas and oil companies
logging companies
truck drivers (well, anyone that drives for a living..taxi drivers, etc. is using government funded roads to make a living).
...
That's what I get in 5 seconds of thinking about it. How are they any different?

If you aren't seeing any guides when you go hunting, is it really a problem?
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby fowlhunter » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:54 am

ducknado wrote:There are TONS of people that use public land to make a living:

fishing guides
cattle ranchers
gas and oil companies
logging companies
truck drivers (well, anyone that drives for a living..taxi drivers, etc. is using government funded roads to make a living).
...
That's what I get in 5 seconds of thinking about it. How are they any different?

If you aren't seeing any guides when you go hunting, is it really a problem?


Ranchers and farmers lease the ground like everywhere else, logging companies have to get special permits, truck drivers and taxi services pay special road taxes, and guide services/outfitters pay NOTHING to use public land.

Also I see guides every weekend on public ground. Guides provide a great service to sportsman, and there are some top notch ones out there. But they do not need to profit from public ground. If they had to pay a good price for permits, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby cluckmeister » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:58 am

fowlhunter wrote:
ducknado wrote:There are TONS of people that use public land to make a living:

fishing guides
cattle ranchers
gas and oil companies
logging companies
truck drivers (well, anyone that drives for a living..taxi drivers, etc. is using government funded roads to make a living).
...
That's what I get in 5 seconds of thinking about it. How are they any different?

If you aren't seeing any guides when you go hunting, is it really a problem?


Ranchers and farmers lease the ground like everywhere else, logging companies have to get special permits, truck drivers and taxi services pay special road taxes, and guide services/outfitters pay NOTHING to use public land.

Also I see guides every weekend on public ground. Guides provide a great service to sportsman, and there are some top notch ones out there. But they do not need to profit from public ground. If they had to pay a good price for permits, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.



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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby ducknado » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:05 am

OK, if you're seeing them every weekend that's a different story.

I'd be in agreement with a permit that requires fees per party that they have hunting on public land.

I'm always apprehensive when we give the the government power to start saying "you can't do this, you can't do that ...." because the government has trouble with keeping the lines in what I feel are the right spots. (for example they could just decide to prevent ALL hunting in some areas rather than trying to decide which hunters are allowed in...there are a lot of politicians that would love to do that).
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby goodkarmarising » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:06 am

fowlhunter wrote:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Petition-to-rid-paid-guidesoutfitters-from-publicWIHA-lands-in-Kansas/698481673508202?notif_t=page_new_likes
Here is a facebook link to help spread the word.

What are the odds that Tony Vandemore uses public grounds? For what he charged I doubt very much he hunts anything that is private ground.

Also, this is not a petition about eliminating guide services. All that is trying to be accomplished is to keep them off public ground. Draws and days off aren't for to those whose schedules don't follow the norm. Again all that is trying to be done is to get the commissions attention. I've yet to talk to freelance Kansas residents who enjoy seeing guides profit off public ground.


I am all for keeping guides from profitting from public lands, whether it be federal Army Corp Lakes, State Wildlife Areas, and WIHA areas...

but.....

It is extremely ironic that the video that is posted with this petition is one that was produced/made by a guide/outfitter. If you're going to start a petiiton to keep guides off public land, don't use a video from a guide/outfitter as the focal point.
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby mudpack » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:44 am

While I get frustrated when I see a paid guide setting up clients 100 yards downwind of me, or ferrying several boatloads of clients to different parts of the refuge pool all morning (and I've experienced both situations).....I'm not sure how a law prohibiting guide-for-pay can be effectively enforced.

Local game warden (LGW) boats up to a paid guide (PG) and four clients hunting over a spread at Cheyenne Bottoms. Four clients have non-resident Kansas licenses. LGW says to PG, "Are you guiding for fee?" PG say, "Oh, no, officer. These are my cousins from N. Carolina. We're just having a family reunion and enjoying the fine waterfowling that Kansas provides us."
LGW has to say, after checking guns for plugs, shell legality, etc., "Have a nice day."

How does LGW prove any money has exchanged hands for the hunt, without a lengthy and costly "sting" operation? In the field, the law is unenforceable. Even a sting operation would be very difficult, if the PG only accepts bookings from known clients and/or new clients with verifications provided by known clients.

I suppose the law against paid guides on public lands would tend to discourage most outfitters, and that would be a plus.
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby cluckmeister » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:48 am

I suppose the law against paid guides on public lands would tend to discourage most outfitters, and that would be a plus

Its like anything else unless theres a punishment hefty to deter it

Maybe a automatic 25,000 dollar fine and a 5 year loss of hunting privilege. but, a small fine like the 10 buck fine for not fastening your seat belt and the law would be useless,
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby fowlhunter » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:53 am

How are any laws enforced? I agree that you will have some people try to get by with it, but that's no different than any other law. If you poach a deer and put it in the freezer and post date a tag how could they prove it? While I see your point, saying "that's just the way it is." Isn't acceptable anymore. At the rate we are going the average Joe won't have any where to go in 15-20 years. The public land around me isn't safe to deer hunt now because of all the hunters. It seems like every year there are more hunters and less land.
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby mudpack » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:35 am

Just so you know, I did sign the petition.
Anyone know what the status is on this ??
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby cluckmeister » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:14 am

mud I sent you a PM reply
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Re: Petition to Stop guides from using public and wiha

Postby fowlhunter » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:54 pm

It's pretty much fizzled out. I'm not sure if people don't care or do not think it's a big deal, but it went strong for a few weeks and just died.
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