You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

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You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby DeadEye_Dan » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:28 am

Sigh*

I've hunted Saginaw Bay exactly ONCE this season (second day of the season, for those interested in the intimate details of my season).
Stop pretending you know who I am or where I hunt.

"We" is not "every hunter I know"....it's the 6-8 guys that I regularly hunt with.
I don't have the heart to kill 1000 puddle ducks in a season, I'd feel bad for the old ladies that feed them at the parks and the kids that like to shoot them on the youth hunt.

As far as the majority of duck hunter being "fair weather Joes"....You should be familiar with the term "hunter days" as measured by DNR/NRC...if my statement isn't true-they why to the majority of "hunter days" occur in October?...don't believe me, get the data for yourself.

As for the 5% comment.
M/L 40,000 waterfowl licenses are sold in the state. What 2 dozen people responded to this thread?? Go over to M-S Waterfowl and ask the same question...you'll get maybe 50 people to respond one way or the other (and you'll find lots of people happy about the change, this year - and some unhappy ones too). Lets round it off and say 100 combined for both sites. One quarter of 1% of all waterfowl hunters?? Look at this forum, the MDHA forum, M-S Waterfowl, (without discounting for individuals that use all 3 sites) you'll have what?? 250-300 regular posters?? Be generous and say 500 and its still only 1.5% of all purchasers of a waterfowl license. The group supporting you here isnt the majority. The majority of that 40,000 hunt 2-3 times a year - but pay the state the same $$ You and I do.

The migrations have already happened. It's fact. Look at the places I cited before.
I don't watch duck hunting videos/shows (don't like the 5 mins of duck hunting with 25 minutes of product pushing)...and I put zero stock in the opinion of a paid endorser.
I do listen to the 2-3 guys I know who have degrees in Waterfowl Biology and work for various states DNR's though.
Cold weather does move birds, no doubt. But it's not the #1 reason birds move.
Photoperiod & access to food sources are more relevant reasons why birds migrate, and certain species are affected by those 3 factors to different degrees.
(to that point- WFPBO counted over 5,000 BWT the last week of Sept & over 15,000 birds of all kinds in 2 days in early October...those birds weren't migrating because they were frozen out of wherever they were)
There are estimates of 60,000+ birds on LSC now.

The major migrations have already happened.

What I will agree with is the 10,000 birds on 1,000 ponds comment.
They are here now, but they are easier to kill in December & January when ice forces them to concentrate in available open water.

And there is my beef.

90% of the mallards killed in MI are Great Lakes mallards. (recovered band data)
Great Lakes mallards populations are estimated to be down 40% from long term averages.

And no one knows why.

IMO- we should have had a more restrictive limit on mallards this season (or last) until we can understand why the population is suffering.

It's also my opinion that we shouldn't set up a virtual slaughter of those same birds by having a season open when they have no place to go to escape the pressure.
1-2 days? Fine
2-3 weeks? Bad idea

By comparison a faulty bird count in 2009 completely CLOSED the canvasback season, and Scaup limits have been restricted since at least 2007, because their long term averages are similar to the GLM numbers...yet nothing has been done to restrict the mallard harvest.

Further, since the GLM population is suffering and the NRC has already shown the lack of willingness to restrict the limits- I'd bet dollars to dimes we're going to be looking at a shorter season (since its really length of season and not bag limit that determines the overall harvest) or an "in season" mallard closure (like with Cans & Bills in the recent past) in the near future.

So I hear guys advocating for a fourth zone (to accommodate 5-6% of the waterfowl hunters), which under current rules means we (the other 95% of the states waterfowlers) lose the split. We're all gonna want that split if we have a 30 or 45 day season.

So yeah, I get pissed when people refuse to look beyond their own couch and advocate for something that I truly believe is bad for the resource and has the potential to screw the majority of waterfowl hunters in this state.

PS.
I'm not sure what "website" you are referring to. I dont have a website.


Had you found my photobucket account, you would have seen these, and more...Oops, maybe internet sleuthing isnt your thing.



Image

Image

Image


I'd rather shoot divers, but every once in a while I'll slum it and shoot some cheeto eaters.

P.P.S
When did "duck season" become "puddler or mallard season"?? You know, guys can and do shoot divers & sea ducks out of W Mi ports...last I checked those were considered ducks too.
If you cant access the land to hunt now you already have 3 good options...
A)Learn to hunt divers
B)Lease ground of your own to shoot park ducks & kick the deer hunters out
C)Do neither, and expect everyone else to sacrifice their season for your benefit.
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby spartansfan » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:26 am

nice coot! :hammer: :hammer: haha just giving you a hard time there. i agree with most of that. but i think theyll reduce bag limits on mallards before they reduce the amount of days you can hunt mallards. they'll be way to many pissed off people if they closed part of the season to mallards because after all that is the majority of what puddler hunters shoot. and lets be real its all about the $$$ in the end.
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You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby DeadEye_Dan » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:48 pm

Hard to say.
Any mallard restrictions will be a last ditch effort and will be fought tooth, fang, & claw to the end as they make up a substantial part of most hunters bag.
IMO reducing the bag won't affect much, as the average hunter takes something less than an average of 2 birds/day as is. So backing down from a limit of 4 to 3 really won't affect much.
However, limiting the number of days the birds can be pursued will save (on average) 2 birds/hunter/day and therefore would have a greater impact than reducing a bag limit.
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby spartansfan » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:23 pm

i bet license sales would decrease then because many hunter days will be cut down because that is mostly what they shoot. and many wont think its worth it.
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby patrick.carrington » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:22 am

Now that your good and spun up, I'll drop the bomb I was holding hopeing you would wise up! If this doesn't teach you to research your point before you open your month, than your just one of those guys that will argue anything if you think your right lmao!!!!! Be my guest to argue with the FWS because from this report, adding a 4th zone would add exposer days and wouldn't affect harvest that much at all!!! Also take a look at the graphs at the bottom, your so called "averages" and "exposer days" are so far off it's not funny. You'll find that not only do you have not a clue what you are talking about but that this report proves it and that next year, thier will be a 4th zone in MI.

http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/NewRe ... 202011.pdf

So what did you think because I'm dieing to hear this!
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby DeadEye_Dan » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:09 am

patrick.carrington wrote:Now that your good and spun up, I'll drop the bomb I was holding hopeing you would wise up! If this doesn't teach you to research your point before you open your month, than your just one of those guys that will argue anything if you think your right lmao!!!!! Be my guest to argue with the FWS because from this report, adding a 4th zone would add exposer days and wouldn't affect harvest that much at all!!! Also take a look at the graphs at the bottom, your so called "averages" and "exposer days" are so far off it's not funny. You'll find that not only do you have not a clue what you are talking about but that this report proves it and that next year, thier will be a 4th zone in MI.

http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/NewRe ... 202011.pdf

So what did you think because I'm dieing to hear this!


Ummm....Thanks??
Even though this discussion is about MI season dates (or was), this is what I took away from it.
If the proposed action of allowing additional zones (ie. more/longer seasons) is adopted, the document says that duck exposure across the country would increase by 5-25% (depending on flyway) and harvest could increase by as much as 17% (across the country) or 2.2 million more dead birds.
A)That's pretty much what I said... :huh: (without the projections and I was specifically referring to MI. Couldnt find anything in your document specific to MI other than a graph of exposure days from 1950 forward)
B)If a 17% increase & 2.2MM birds is "not that much at all", I'd hate to see what you think is statistically significant!
C) page 16, (first paragraph) read it. Then go research the status of current GLM populations. Then give your opinion of what the future MI duck seasons look like. This is a USFW document, they only make the framework, the MI DNR/NRC set our seasons. And historically they have been more conservative than the Feds. However the document clearly states if mallard populations in any given area are suffering the Feds will chop seasons and bag limits...for all species.
D) I didn't see anything in the graphs that contradicted what I said. 1996 Mississippi Flyway hunters averaged 14.7 ducks per season. Nothing about birds/per day or days hunted. The most recent MI DNR/NRC info I've seen puts AVERAGE birds/per hunter/per day in the 2-2.2 bird range. I'm trying to find the doc, but it's lost on the interwebz somewhere.
E) Going to 4 zones means we lose our ability to split. Which means we ALL take it in the hiney if we get chopped to a 30 or 45 day season.

I guess you showed me.

I suppose you think the rest of MI will gladly give up their splits with the potential for shorter seasons and reduced limits a very real possibility??
I suppose you think the State will listen to the minority vs. the majority?
I suppose you think the state wont follow the $$$$ ? (where are all the managed areas again??)
Last edited by DeadEye_Dan on Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
assateague wrote:Wives are all against super cool, awesome ideas. If Columbus had been married, we'd all still be European.



WisconsinWaterfowler wrote: You just have to use the back of your throat and hum. That's how I would describe it anyways.
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby DeadEye_Dan » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:13 am

Cool.
I like your tactic. When getting horribly crushed in a debate, change the topic and try to divert...duck and cover.

Lets recap.

Start a thread complaining about season dates and get called out for not giving it a chance before you pass judgement.

Change topic to the "fact" that birds dont migrate in W MI until later, lose argument when faced with science, bird counts, hunter observations and other pesky details.

Recant previously stated "fact" and acquiesce the fact that birds are indeed here, but claim birds cant be hunted because deer hunters have all the ground leased, therefor later season dates are needed. Dont bother to hunt anything other than puddle ducks or try leasing a spot for ducks.

Try to discredit your antagonist by calling them out, and fail miserably by posting inaccurate information regarding websites & photos & hunting areas, and then scramble to "salvation-bomb dropping mode" by posting USFW document in a discussion about MI seasons, in hopes that taking it out of context will baffle and confuse, when in fact said document affirms your antagonist's points.


This is fun - Got any other smoke screens??
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby spartansfan » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:42 am

and boom goes the dynamite!!!
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby blackduckkilla13 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:33 am

Just my two bits. Long story short, I do not want the late season moved up. Having a late season one week after the regular season closes is not a late season. I will not get into the mud slinging going on, but what maddens me the most and why I earlier asked for contact infomation for the CWAC is that no survey was sent out to ask what we wanted. I know and hunted with a gentleman this fall that is on the commission. I listened as he talked and what it comes down to is Saginaw Bay and politics. The late season does not work for them because no matter what they are frozen solid in January. Their recommendation to move up the late season gives Saginaw Bay the potential, weather permitting, to get in another hunt. Next year, the Saginaw Bay area will be recommended to join the Northern Lower Pennisula zone so they can open a week earlier. Fine. I cannot beat probably the hot bed of duck hunting in MI. I hunt there each fall, once maybe twice, with one of my best friends. I have met many great guys there too (friendly and willing to share equipment/ blinds). However, I loved the late season in Newaygo county. I will speak for me and my hunting buddy only/ no generalizations about others. We scout non stop, year round, and knock on every door we can. We spend our hard earned money on duck hunting. We volunteer countless hours, started a DU chapter, pay for, build, erect, and maintain 16 wood duck boxes (past three years) and we volunteer to clean up wetlands each year. I am also a member of Delta. So for me, I am as involved in waterfowling as I can possible be. The late season was a great way to end the year. We do NOT shoot barreled ducks over small openings of water as alluded we all do in the late season. We hunt hard and we love the fruits of our hard work. Next time the state takes something away from hunters ask them. It is very easy for the state to do this since they have our contact info, so send us a letter, an email, or ask us to vote online before they make a decision that impacts the hunter. The same can be done for this threads new topic of a split hunting season. Put a poll on line, notify us to vote via email, notifications of a vote on MUCC TV, print an announcement in newspapers state hunting magazines, and let us at least vote.
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby spartansfan » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:42 am

just to make everyone happy they should close 2 random days in october and give the jan 1 and 2 hunt and the dec. 9 10th hunt
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby patrick.carrington » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:44 am

blackduckkilla13 wrote:Just my two bits. Long story short, I do not want the late season moved up. Having a late season one week after the regular season closes is not a late season. I will not get into the mud slinging going on, but what maddens me the most and why I earlier asked for contact infomation for the CWAC is that no survey was sent out to ask what we wanted.


If you google MI CWAC, most of there contact information is on there.

Dan, Yes lets recap,

I have hunted my area for 12 years, no need to give it a chance as I have seen the same turf over and over each year and I know what the outcome is going to be.

Every ducks has a differnet migeration pattern and migerates for differnet reasons so to tell me the migeration is over is the same nonesence you accuse me of. We can all agree that if a food source and habitat is around, weather or not, there not moveing (puddlers). Divers are a different story and I'll agree with you that that migeration is over. You said earlier that band data shows 9 out of 10 birds we kill are from MI. If thats the case, Mi doesnt have a Mallard migeration lol.

I believe my statements were true and many agree. Birds or no birds, the private land owner/hunter relationship is the only way to hunt ducks/geese in alot of areas in S/SW MI and tring to overpower a deer lease which is normally about 50 to 100 dollars an acre is a privelage that most of us can't afford.

I did call you out and the links posted all back my arguement. You have not posted one yet in support of yours. It's all "dimes to dollars" and "my opinion" or "my buddies the bio's". Give me something. I'm a pretty open person to change to support good hunting opertunity. Thiers just alot of imformation that you have put out that is very hard to believe and most of your information i have looked for and cant find which is why have have asked you several times to prove your point. If you say we'd all take it in the rear for a 4th zone and a 30-45 day season, I'll take it if it means less hunter effort with more harvest success which is mentioned alot in that report.

The "bomb is no more childish than your emotional *sigh's and yes, it's childishlol.
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby patrick.carrington » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:41 am

To your first statement
A.) That is what you said, didn't debate it.
B.) Doesn't matter what I think, the top of the document says in big bold letters that is doesn't affect it enough.
C.)True, they will chop them if nessacary and yea, Great lakes mallards are haveing issues and they do make the flyway framework but until the feds think it wise to cut the dates or bag limits, why debate it. CWAC wasn't worried about it. They were more worried about the split and the guides that sit the board getting the dates they wanted. My opinion weights nothing in this and until the feds say hey MI, we need to talk about reduced Mallard harvest, I'll stick with shooting 4 a day!
D.)They are off and until you prove me wrong with a document that has those avereages, no one believes you and you can clame all day that you lost the link in the web. To be honest, I dont care what the averages are, I care about haveing some fun shooting ducks and it's not happening and has nothing to do with my skills or the skills of others.
E.) True take the 4th zone and loose the split but why are you dissing the 30-45 season if you haven't tried it yet!!!! Your opinion again.

Heres's what I'll say, you started this at the beginning with you ruler of all duck hunting comment with mad skills and big deals and God complex posting from a simple thead about moving the dates and what others thought about it. You complained about whinning from SW MI yet your from there. We need to improve our skills! You called yourself an antagonist and refered things to your 5 year olds behavior. If you want to PM me and continue this debate, great but this is pointless. You are right. Changing the season is a horrible idea and how stupid of me to think that it would ever change. Its perfect just the way it is.
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby spartansfan » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:57 am

where the heck are you paying 50-100 dollars per acre. thats crazy. try like 15-20 per acre.
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby sws002 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:26 pm

We aren't, but that's become the going rate for good ground around here (keep in mind, we are battling already existing deer leases, so we'd have to pay more than a typical lease to top the existing lease). To us, it's not worth it to pay that kind of money, just as easy to buy more dekes, try and get permission on adjacent land and run traffic.
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You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby Smackaduck » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:33 pm

Those aren't crazy prices. I have friends that pay up to 25,000 for a duck lease. And it's normally for one blind, and all they can hunt is that one blind. No roaming no deer hunting, nothing but duck hunting that one blind.
If they're dumb enough to be lured in by plastic you're really just doing them a favor.

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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby spartansfan » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:31 pm

Smackaduck wrote:Those aren't crazy prices. I have friends that pay up to 25,000 for a duck lease. And it's normally for one blind, and all they can hunt is that one blind. No roaming no deer hunting, nothing but duck hunting that one blind.


so in other words A. they have more money then they know what to do with. B. all's they care about is the number of ducks they kill. C. they're to lazy to scout. is what I get out of why someone would pay 25000 for a duck lease
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You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby Smackaduck » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:45 pm

A. Yes
B. Yes
C. Yes

Lol.. We actually got to hunt one of these pits a couple years ago. It was an experience.
If they're dumb enough to be lured in by plastic you're really just doing them a favor.

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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby spartansfan » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:25 pm

you're also talking Louisiana prices not michigan
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby patrick.carrington » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:51 pm

spartansfan wrote:you're also talking Louisiana prices not michigan


I own ten acres in Calhoun County and had a guy offer me 1000 dollars to hunt because I am bumbed up to a QDMA property. It might be different in other area's but the leases for deer on some of the farms around here are anywhere between 500 to 20,000 dollars depending on the quailty of deer on the ground. Most of the time its a land lease when there that expensive becuase the guys hunt everything from mushrooms to deer. Theres's one deer lease over by the Eaton plant that pays 34,000 on 400 acres. He's a lawyer from detriot that leases and as you can guess theres a pond that is loaded with ducks so we stare at them and drowl. What I would do to have that kind of money to blow on hunting haha.

Around me, the only lease I would think about would be on the river systems where the birds work year round. Most of our hunting is done in a field for both geese and ducks. They change fields around here like crazy so tring to lease a field wouldn't do us any good. Most of the farmers are very nice and let us hunt, just not during firearm deer because they hunt themselfs which is understandable. That's why we like the late season so much is theres a 100% chance that we can get permission on a field after scouting. During the reg season, you could easily put 5,000 miles on your truck over 15 days and find a lots of birds but it's pointless becuase you'll never get permission to hunt.
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby rnteeh721 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:55 pm

That's Michigan for you let them fly threw so everyone else south of us can have fun shooting all the ducks
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby waterfowlhunter » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:32 pm

I have 140 acres in 2 locations in the thumb, One is wooded with a flooded gravel pit and one is bean fields with a 2 acre pond. LOTS of geese all Season long (over 200 there right now acording to my dad) but VERY FEW ducks and None past October. BUT at my house south of flint I live on a river and just the last few days the Mallard population has skyrocketed. Right now as I type I could easily kill 6 to 8 with one shot and the majority are greenheads. But I do not hunt them (unless I see another one with double bands down there :biggrin: ) SO in one area of MI I have NO ducks on our property and in another I have too many to count. Point is that if you want to hunt all season (the current season) Just move with the ducks, Scout and hunt where they want to be. Do not wine and cry for different season dates just to suit the availability of ducks in your own back yard. :thumbsup:

MOST of the duck hunters I see or know only hunt October. I hunt to the end then again in the late season (for geese) and after October I pretty much hunt any zone or spot on the bay I want because "most" of the hunters have packed it in, they hunt the first 2 weeks and then that is all they want. The draw area goes from 130 parties in the first 2 weeks to around 40 parties then down into the 30 range rather quickly.
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby 4drakes » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:27 pm

I too loved the late season being in early Jan it was great. SO i guess i will work this weekend since there are no ducks Where i hunt.
Last edited by 4drakes on Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby spartansfan » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:50 pm

4drakes wrote:I too loved the late season being in early Jan it was great. I am working this weekend instead of duck. Once again MI dnr dropped the ball


so they dropped the ball since they didnt know your work schedule?
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby waterfowlhunter » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:59 am

spartansfan wrote:
4drakes wrote:I too loved the late season being in early Jan it was great. I am working this weekend instead of duck. Once again MI dnr dropped the ball


so they dropped the ball since they didnt know your work schedule?



I see he edited his post after you quoted it. :crying:
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Re: You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Postby spartansfan » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:22 am

haha ya i noticed that. people just love to make up excuses to try to sound good.
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