President Bush and my trip to Mexico

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Postby BurnZ » Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:51 am

Boomn4x4 wrote:First what caught my attention was the state residency of those that have voiced their opinion. Georgia, Alaska, Kentucky, Utah, Kansas, Ohio, Oklahoma, Idaho, Nebraska, Washington, Wisconsin, Michigan, Minesota, Texas, and ..... New Zealand?


We all live in the same country, this is a problem that effects everyone regarless of what state we are in.
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Postby Boomn4x4 » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:13 am

Yes it does affect everyone. My questions is where is everyone's information coming from. Is it coming from the local news paper, the evening news, or is it coming from an area where you have first hand knowledge. Are any of you imigration specialists, or economists?

I understand that without verbal communication it is easy to misinterperet the tone of conversation, and I assure you I am not swinging a stick or pointing fingers. Please don't take my questions as personal attacks.
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Postby duckplucker » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:05 pm

Boomn4x4 wrote:
The only state that is represented in this forum is Texas. I am curious as to what everyone has experienced to justify their opinion. Once again, I don't wish to criticize anyone only to present a question.


My reply to the above posed question is simple: The largest city around where I live is Emporia, Kansas. While I do not have any exact numbers or percentages, I do know that Emporias population is nearly, but slightly under, 50% Mexican-Americans. I do not know how many are legal or illegal, but I have seen sights that :pissed: me off. Many drive around in their cars with Mexican flag licence plates, decals, antenna flags, flags draped in the back window, etc. They want American rights, live like your an American with American Flags. Many have Mexican flags ABOVE the American flags on flag poles, if they even ahve American flags at all. Many do not know a lick of english, nor do they try to learn it. Rather, they depend on us (meaning white Americans) to learn Spanish to talk to them.

I am 1/8 Mexican, and not ashamed to say it. My great grandfather was full blooded Mexican, and came stright from south of the border. My Grandma tells me stories of how they were NOT allowed to speak ANY spanish in America. They learned English and respected the American way of life. That is how it should be.

I have nothing against Mexicans or any other immigrants wanting to come into America, as long as they do so LEGALLY. If they are willing to go through the process to come here, thats great. If they will pay taxes and work for and earn a living, thats Fantastic. But if they are going to sneak over here, live off welfare and medicaid, not bother paying taxes, and reap all the benefits and rights provided in America without working for it, then send em back to Mexico where they belong. :hammering:



*quick edit: I am not meaning this in any form of angry tone, and do not want anyone to be offended or take it that this is attacking their views. Everyone is entitled to his or here own opinion: FREEDOM OF SPEECH :yes: *
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Postby LaRedneck » Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:34 am

see senior'...me comprend'e....oh crap they got me i've gone mexican help help help :laughing:

Guys it great hearing each others views on this topic and yes we as "Amercians" have freedom of speech so whatever someone says let not get bent out of shape and send nasty grams, there no need it that crap. :thumbsup:
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Postby kiwismakebetterhunters » Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:48 am

LAredneck wrote: and yes we as "Amercians" have freedom of speech :


Does that mean I gotta shut the hell up?!!! :toofunny:
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Postby Boomn4x4 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:39 am

duckplucker wrote: I do know that Emporias population is nearly, but slightly under, 50% Mexican-Americans. I do not know how many are legal or illegal, but I have seen sights that :pissed: me off. *


Taken from the context of your wording, you are not taking a stance on illegal immigration, you are expressing a predijuice towards a nationality (which of course you have every right to do so).

In your post you express your concerns on flying Mexian Flags and speaking Spanish, but you conclude your argument (in all caps) FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

Of the 50% Mexian population you point out I find it very unlikly that more than a handful are aliens...
"Many drive around in their cars with Mexican flag licence plates, decals, antenna flags, flags draped in the back window, etc." ...
If they are driving around, they have a license plate and drivers license. You can't get either as an alien.
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Postby Gooseboy » Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:46 pm

[quote="Boomn4x4"]

The only state that is represented in this forum is Texas. I am curious as to what everyone has experienced to justify their opinion. Once again, I don't wish to criticize anyone only to present a question.
quote]


Do i not count for Oklahoma?


Also watching new this night DID YOU KNOW Mexico sends the U.S. 1.4 million barrels of oil a day?
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Postby Swamp Puppy » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:48 pm

duckplucker wrote:
"Many drive around in their cars with Mexican flag licence plates, decals, antenna flags, flags draped in the back window, etc." ...


sooo...it ticks you off when people drive around with non-american things on their license plates? what about all the people that have the confederate flag on their license plates? or on bumper stickers or widow decals..or wear it on hats or T-shirts. that is not just non-american, but technically it is ANTI-American. surly as someone who feels so strongly against a person displaying the flag of their native country on their vehicle..your eyes must literally bulge out of your head with hatred when you see a person flying a symbol that represents a group of individuals who rebelled against the US government.
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Postby Gooseboy » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:05 pm

:withstupid:

What is wrong with bieng proud of your heritage? What Swamp Puppy said is a very good example with the Confederate flag.
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Postby Swamp Puppy » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:13 pm

If i got ticked off everytime i saw some flag other than the US flag I would be ticked off every minute of every day. there is a large scandanavian presence here in the NW. mainly because of the numerous shipping ports. over the years some of these people have settled down here and made lives for themselves. they have meeting halls for Finnish Brotherhood and some other group of Norwegiens. outside of their meeting places are flags from their countries. they have bumper stickers that say things like "proud to be swedish" and crap like that.

who cares?? so what?? they aren't saying that they hate america..only that they are proud of their ancestry. remember..NOBODY is from here. we all come from somewhere else. trace your family history back far enough and you, yes YOU, are an immigrant.

me?? I'm Scotch, Irish, English, and Dutch. with a smidge of american indian tossed in. my family fought with the Loyalists (that's the English) during the american revolution..and when England lost, they left for the Canada before returning to the states some years later.
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Postby kiwismakebetterhunters » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:18 pm

:withstupid:


Ok this is from an outsiders perspective. And I'm gonna be serious now. :yes: America isnt right or left. It isnt spanish or english. It isn't brown, black or white. Its not a place of conforming to certain ideals. It is however the free market place of ideas, thoughts and expression. It is by God FREEDOM. :yes:

Having said that as Americans you have the right to disagree with anybody, be racist, be sexist, be bigoted, pull out the race card, hate Bush and even hate Mexicans. It is wrong however to regulate or remove anybodies right to do these things, unless they also remove others inalienable rights.

Even in New Zealand theres a little bit of AMERICA in all of us. :thumbsup:
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Postby goldhunter470 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:40 pm

kiwi said:
Does that mean I gotta shut the hell up?!!!


Yes!!






Just kidding!! :salude:
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Postby Boomn4x4 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:14 pm

swamp puppy, kiwi, gooseboy....... thank you for having an open mind. I personally feel that too many people take views that are not supported by anything other than what they hear from the media.
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Postby HuntingWife » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:34 pm

Boomn4x4 wrote:If they are driving around, they have a license plate and drivers license. You can't get either as an alien.


You can't get Medicaid or welfare as an illegal either. You have to have a SSN, although that does not mean you have to be an American citizen. Although I do feel compelled to point out that many people (citizens and illegal aliens alike) do not feel obligated to have a valid driver's license in order to drive!
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Postby goldhunter470 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:42 pm

huntingwife wrote:

You can't get Medicaid or welfare as an illegal either. You have to have a SSN, although that does not mean you have to be an American citizen.


You do need a SSN to get welfare but when you use the ER as a primary care provider you are a drain on the system. Not saying only illeagals use the ER as such but if you are working at a job with no benefits and cannot get wefare because of fear of deportation the ER is the only solution.
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Postby goldhunter470 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:50 pm

goldhunter470 wrote:huntingwife wrote:

You can't get Medicaid or welfare as an illegal either. You have to have a SSN, although that does not mean you have to be an American citizen.


You do need a SSN to get welfare but when you use the ER as a primary care provider you are a drain on the system. Not saying only illeagals use the ER as such but if you are working at a job with no benefits and cannot get wefare because of fear of deportation the ER is the only solution.


Although I do feel compelled to point out that many people (citizens and illegal aliens alike) do not feel obligated to have a valid driver's license in order to drive!


I drive truck and can tell you people could have ten drivers licenses and it still wouldn't make a difference. It's not the illeagals who shouldn't have them, its the women!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Postby Oregon Honker » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:51 pm

I work with a few of thes people and the other day one was pretty up set and throwing racial crap at a few white people so i ask him "just how many of your race died in ww1,ww2 ,korea,vietnam. fighting for the USA "
he diddent have much to say after that :pissed:

I am not a racest at all but if they open a can of worms i'll let it fly to an extent
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Postby GKO » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:54 pm

I am new to this forum and live the reality of this topic everday being that I live in Central Texas.

Yes, Mexican Nationals ( aka illegal aliens ) can get Texas State Drivers License', Insurance, they can own property, take out loans, send thier kids to public School, receive welfare assistance, medical treatment all as if they were legal citizens.

Why the hell would they not want to come here? I don't blame them. The reality is, the majority of them are great people. They work hard, and want to work, and generally have very high moral and family values. From my experience. There are always the few in any population that are bad element.

We as a Nation have to stop the hemorhaging, close the Border first, before we can deal with the ones already here.

After closing the border and stopping the flood then how do we deal with the ones already here. I say we assimalate them and make Taxpayers out of them.

IMO trying to round them up and send them back would be costly and would have detrimental impact on our economy as a whole. Especially here in Texas.

Finding the quanity and quality of Natural born Citizens to do some of the trades these people do would be impossible.

I know this because I have first hand experience dealing with both categories, Citizens and Aliens. I have hired Contractors who employ aliens and find that the quality and quantiy of their work is very good. They generally start early and work at a minnimum of a full eight hours.

Real American Craftsmen are hard to beat. But, they are harder to find because of the proliferation of alien labor which has spawned a competitive landscape that has made it the way construction business is done.

I blame all of this on our Federal and State Gov't's that have ignored the situation for so long that now anybody that is not using cheaper labor is out of business.

There was a time when Local Law enforcement would hold and detain illegal aliens for INS to deport. Over the last 15-20 years, that act has been eliminated from thier duties. Now, if a State Trooper pulls one over on a trafic violation, he is treated as a natural citizen as long as he has his liability insurance. INS beyond the Border is way too thin to be effective in making a dent in this population.

So I ask, who created this problem? Who are the the real bad guys here? Is it he Mexican Nationals who seek opportunity trying to make a better life for thier own? Is it the empoylers who are, in some sense, almost required to hire them in order to stay in business in some trades?

I put it back on our own Gov't and the Mexican Gov't. Our Gov't must deal with the bleeding then the current population. The Mexican Gov't must creat an economy that makes all of this a mute point.

I don't appreciate the drain these people put on some of our resources, Welfare, Medical..etc, anymore than the next guy, but until the 'Gov't' takes the first step toward dealing with this matter correctly, we all must live with it the best way we know how.

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Postby duckplucker » Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:23 pm

Boomn4x4 wrote:Taken from the context of your wording, you are not taking a stance on illegal immigration, you are expressing a predijuice towards a nationality (which of course you have every right to do so).


Read the last paragraph of my post. It clearly states that if they come in legally, I don't have a problem with it. And as for being predijuice, I find it hard to believe that I am going to be against a heritage that I share; Again my post reads that I am part Hispanic.
I can see your point that if they are driving, they are probably legal. But on the flip side, if you steal a car without a license, you broke the law twice (cant drive and theft) - so if they are here illegaly, they probably arent going to see driving without a liscense as a big deal.

Swamp- Yes, it does upset me off to see confederate flags and the like. I am not "bulging with hatred," but I dont like to see it. I can see your point about it not saying they are against America, but pround of their ancestry. I never really thought of it like that. That still doesnt account for why they want to support their old ancestry more that they do America.

And to clear up a few things about my post that seem to have provoked controversy (I dont know if the reactions came from my post or the topic as a whole, but I feel compelled to say this). I do not Hate Mexicans, nor do I dislike them in any way. I disagree with some actions they do, but to each their own. I stand by my idea that the American flag should go above any other national flag.
My post is ended with all caps freedom of speech, but my argument is not. THere is a difference. And I do feel that freedom of speech is one of the best rights given to Americans, but if by using your rights they infringe on anothers, you no longer have the right to do something. Why should America learn to speak a secondary language, when those who dont know english could learn the Official Language of the United States. (and flying flags is not part of freedom of speech)

Lastly, I do not "feel so strongly against" those who sport other nations flags. I will admit that I don't like what I see, but I don't dislike them for doing so. No, I don't like that our city is more decorated with Mexican Flags than American. No, I don't like to see most hispanic-driven cars with signs of Mexico all over. But its not thier fault that more people dont raise american flags, or have them tattooed all over their cars. My only view is if Mexico is so highly valued, and such an apparantly great place, Then why would anyone want to be in America?

I have not mentioned much about Confederate Flags, or other national flags, because this topic seems to me like it was about Mexican's and Americans, not to be confused with Mexicans vs. Americans. Im not saying one is better than the other. Im not trying to be derrogatory toward HIspanics or Mexico. My reply was to boomn's question about where I got information over my views, and I reported where and what I saw. My reply specifically stated that I wasn't being discriminatory, and still am not. This is what I see, and my opinions drawn from such sights.
I don't like being attacked for something I never said, so if you disagree with something I say, tell me. I wont be angered over someone not agreeing with me or trying to persuade/change my views. I will be angered if someone uses quotes from my post then uses their interpretation of what i said to make me say something completly different. I know text is hard to decifer tone of voice, and what someone is implying. I hope I didn't make anyone mad from what I've said.
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Postby kiwismakebetterhunters » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:21 pm

Jeez I wish I could just cross an invisible border! :laughing:
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Postby goldhunter470 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:42 pm

Jeez I wish I could just cross an invisible border!


It's not that long of a swim, is it?? :laughing: :laughing: Anyway, why would you want to leave that island paradise? The less we hear about a place on the news the better off you must be. Maybe I should start swimming!! :salude:
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Postby LaRedneck » Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:21 am

Not funny, it long and alittle borein but if you don't like it here move to Aussy land

Three Cheers for Australia!
>
> Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
>
> A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.

>
> Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state and its laws were made by parliament.

> "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on national television.

> "I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option," Costello said.

> Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country.

> Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off".

> "Basically, people who don't want to be Australians, and they don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then they can basically clear off," he said. Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.

> AMERICA and Canada..... ARE YOU LISTENING?
>
> After Sydney not wanting to offend other cultures by putting up Xmas lights... After hearing that the State of South Australia changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face covered...

> An Australian citizen wrote to an Australian newspaper: IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.

>
> However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia.

> However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.

> This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.

> This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the language!

> Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push but a fact because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, Because God is part of our culture.

> We will accept your beliefs and will not question why, all we ask is that you accept ours and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.

> If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like " A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

> We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means keep your culture but do not force it on others.

> This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this.
> But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, "THE RIGHT TO LEAVE".

> If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here
> You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.
> Pretty easy really, when you think about it. I figure if we all keep passing this to our friends (and enemies) it will also, sooner or later get back to the complainers, lets all try, please.
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Postby kiwismakebetterhunters » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:07 am

>Really bad duck hunting in Austrailia

>Nutty gun laws

>Tiny Trout.

>And theres Australians
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Postby DeaDux » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:50 am

that crap is funny kiwismakebetterhunters! Cheap ass labor for damn sure thats a price they should have to pay for bein here illegelly! they need to contribute to the economy in some way! As for not speaking ENGLISH and flying thier flags and all that crap, well i think that's just garbage!! If your gonna be here, speak the damn language and keep the allegiance to your home country to the confines of your own home! This is AMERICA not mexico!!!!! all that mumbo jumbo about free speech dont mean sh*t here to me i dont know about you fellas but if your live in america at least act AMERICAN! if not GO HOME! It's like "we're not in kansas anymore todo" well you know what "we're not in mexico anymore paco!"
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Postby duckplucker » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:32 pm

Couldn't have said it any better LA.
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