Any lab pups?

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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Blackfoot Inc » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:42 am

This thread brings out some interesting points. With all the health tests being preformed these days are breeders/Testing pricing out the average dog owner?

"Awesome Bloodline" fact is most Pedigrees have very common names associated with them, Candlewood, Super Tanker, Honcho, Lean Mac, Super Chief, and the list goes on to about 15 common names. Of these 15 names most have known issues that "AREN'T" publicly advertised. As with most industries corruption is in play.

Started Dogs, are generally considered Field Trial washouts. A wide verity of reasons contribute to why a dog may be sold as a started dog, but it's almost a guarantee that training issues are a major reason, Marking. Most "Pro Trainers" are chasing derby points for their clients dogs, which normally results in pushing young dogs to hard, too fast. By pushing hard these trainers skip steps which create holes in a program. Also, when pushing young dogs pro trainers tend to train with an Ecollar, rather then teaching first and making corrections with a collar.

Splatt, while you and Trap have made a Farmers Only.com connection this is not always the case. Many of these dogs have been rode hard and put away wet, then sold for someone else to deal with.
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Bluesky2012 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:52 am

Blackfoot Inc wrote:This thread brings out some interesting points. With all the health tests being preformed these days are breeders/Testing pricing out the average dog owner?

"Awesome Bloodline" fact is most Pedigrees have very common names associated with them, Candlewood, Super Tanker, Honcho, Lean Mac, Super Chief, and the list goes on to about 15 common names. Of these 15 names most have known issues that "AREN'T" publicly advertised. As with most industries corruption is in play.

Started Dogs, are generally considered Field Trial washouts. A wide verity of reasons contribute to why a dog may be sold as a started dog, but it's almost a guarantee that training issues are a major reason, Marking. Most "Pro Trainers" are chasing derby points for their clients dogs, which normally results in pushing young dogs to hard, too fast. By pushing hard these trainers skip steps which create holes in a program. Also, when pushing young dogs pro trainers tend to train with an Ecollar, rather then teaching first and making corrections with a collar.

Splatt, while you and Trap have made a Farmers Only.com connection this is not always the case. Many of these dogs have been rode hard and put away wet, then sold for someone else to deal with.



The price for health tests is 200$ or less, so does that price out a poor person? Yes, but if you can't afford 200$ then you can't afford vet bills so you shouldn't have a dog in the first place. And that is 200$ one time in a breeders dog's life, so spread that among a few litters and it is negligible. That means a breeder is lazy and often ignorant. As well, if a breeder is smart, knows it's dogs bloodline and what genetic traits the dog carries, selective breeding would quickly eliminate the need for these tests. Therefore crappy backyard breeders are the reason hip, joint, eic, and other issues still exist.

Started dogs are only on occasion field trial washouts, but not because of "skipped steps", poor training, use of an e-collar etc. your trying to throw your "British trial" mantra across the board here but the fact is, American labs trained with a collar are far superior to British labs. Look at the requirements for the tests.

Many pros enjoy training to transition work and sell dogs there because it's what they enjoy. But even the "field trial washouts" that do occur typically mean the dog is not from the absolute apex of breedings, but is still typically far superior to an average lab, and would make one heck of a hunting dog.

Think about it, if a pro wants the best FT dog, they are going to invest the best training and effort into it until it is shown that dog won't perform as well as the top 1% of labs. So why then would it makes sense for the pro to leave "holes in the program", "skip steps", etc?

You're making up facts and you know it. Present a good argument, not a made up one.
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Back for more » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:56 am

I'm not taking side nor want to be in the debate but that was funny as hell

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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby quackadikt » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:07 pm

Blackfoot Inc wrote:Started Dogs, are generally considered Field Trial washouts. A wide verity of reasons contribute to why a dog may be sold as a started dog, but it's almost a guarantee that training issues are a major reason, Marking.


I'd have to say that this is a big hunk of crap. While you're definitely right in some cases, saying that a a started dog is almost guaranteed to have training issues is BS. Like Bluesky said, lots of guys just train dogs to a point and sell them, or they're brokers to an extent for gundogs.

Even most "washouts" will make a great gun dog. Maybe they don't run hard enough, or maybe they're ability to mark starts falling off at 200 yards. Maybe their lines on casts aren't straight enough or maybe he breaks down and hunts on his own a little when he gets to the area of a fall *gasp*...Field trial dogs are held to ridiculous standards that aren't exactly normal. I'd take my gamble on a "washout" or started dog any day if I came across one for a good price and could watch him work a little.
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Bluesky2012 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:21 pm

quackadikt wrote:
Blackfoot Inc wrote:Started Dogs, are generally considered Field Trial washouts. A wide verity of reasons contribute to why a dog may be sold as a started dog, but it's almost a guarantee that training issues are a major reason, Marking.


I'd have to say that this is a big hunk of crap. While you're definitely right in some cases, saying that a a started dog is almost guaranteed to have training issues is BS. Like Bluesky said, lots of guys just train dogs to a point and sell them, or they're brokers to an extent for gundogs.

Even most "washouts" will make a great gun dog. Maybe they don't run hard enough, or maybe they're ability to mark starts falling off at 200 yards. Maybe their lines on casts aren't straight enough or maybe he breaks down and hunts on his own a little when he gets to the area of a fall *gasp*...Field trial dogs are held to ridiculous standards that aren't exactly normal. I'd take my gamble on a "washout" or started dog any day if I came across one for a good price and could watch him work a little.



Exactly. A field trial is way way beyond what a regular hunter needs. If a dog was even close to becoming a trial prospect, then it is likely to be one heck of a gun dog for anyone else.

This is like saying two Olympic runners had a kid together. The kid was a good college runner, but didn't make the olympics. You're assuming his coaches must have coached him poorly and he was genetically flawed.

Yes that kid may have not been good enough for the Olympics, but I'd hate to race him.
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Blackfoot Inc » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:36 pm

Never said they wouldn't make great meat dogs....because that's not true."Gasp"

British Mantra, hardly!!! Nothing British about Mike Lardy's program. However I'm interested in your 15:15:45 program?
Big difference between teaching a dog first, then making "corrections" when needed with a collar. Also, working with pups up to transition is fun as well as easy.
bluesky, thanks for your service.

Splatt, just messin with you! I know your not a Farmer.

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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Splatt » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:42 pm

Trap was no wash out.
Never was even run in any tests.
He was bred, and trained at the same place.
Lee picked Trap for me based solely on getting to know me some, what my intended purpose for getting a dog were, and knowing her dogs well enough, to pick the one she felt was a match.
I've ran Trap in just a few tests so. Only ones local to me up here.
With where Lee left off and I picked up, Id say Trap is well on his way to his master title.

Besides an awesome hunting dog, decent hunt test participant, he's an awesome buddy to me.

Yep.
Farmers hit the nail square on the head.

A shameless brag.....
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby quackadikt » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:06 pm

Blackfoot Inc wrote:Never said they wouldn't make great meat dogs....because that's not true."Gasp"

British Mantra, hardly!!! Nothing British about Mike Lardy's program. However I'm interested in your 15:15:45 program?
Big difference between teaching a dog first, then making "corrections" when needed with a collar. Also, working with pups up to transition is fun as well as easy.
bluesky, thanks for your service.

Splatt, just messin with you! I know your not a Farmer.

"If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart"
Rex Carr


The *gasp* wasn't directed at you...I forget that you're so sensitive sometimes.
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Bluesky2012 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:08 am

Hey for anyone that's not a pro and doesn't 100% know how to train through every situation, the 15:15:45 method works great. Heck I'm doing the 45 part right now haha
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Blackfoot Inc » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:08 am

Done some of my best thinking 45ing!!
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Splatt » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:16 pm

Traps gonna run next weekend for his title in HRC seasoned.
Slowly, tests by test, he's moving up the proficiency ladder.
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby --(NastyBoy)-- » Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:58 pm

Splatt wrote:Traps gonna run next weekend for his title in HRC seasoned.
Slowly, tests by test, he's moving up the proficiency ladder.


I don't see you on the list. Unless Traps call name is different and your not the handler. But you could be signing up the day of the event. :beer:

Will Traps be running both days?
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Splatt » Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:12 pm

I procrastinated and didn't enter before the closing.
HRC, allows entering at the test.
Only 5 are entered on Saturday, and 4 on Sunday.
There won't be any problems getting in to run.
With the low seasoned entries, I should be able to go to finished and see what's expected of the dogs, and be able to train for his next go around of tests.
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby frogskins01 » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:07 am

You can't really show off the ribbons because you basically paid for them. I think it's cool and everything but I just feel like you really didn't earn those. I don't really care about hunt tests but I am going to at least try it out. Just to see all the hard work hours and money I put into my pup when he gets his first retrieve on a hunt and when he becomes a jr hunter will be all worth it. That I did that not a trainer just a couple of friends showing me what to do and practicing every day. I really had no idea what I was getting myself into when I bought zeek but it has been worth it. If I didn't have Blackfoot, nasty, or Mary I wouldn't have the amazing dog I have now nor the knowledge to train a future dog.
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Back for more » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:28 am

frogskins01 wrote:You can't really show off the ribbons because you basically paid for them.


:eek:
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby quackadikt » Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:07 pm

:lol3:

Boy, you're a real piece of work froghumper.
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Splatt » Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:02 pm

So explain how I didn't earn them?
Trap dudnt come programmed with whistle sits or casting or many other technical training.
He came with just the basic sit, stay, and a huge desire.
If I can't take credit for getting him to where he is now, then who can?

God??

Divine intervention right?!!!!

Go smoke another one dude.
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Blackfoot Inc » Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:56 pm

I guess there's not an absolute definition for Started, but my understanding is a started dog comes with the ability to Handle.

Wow! You spent 3K for a pedigree, sit and here?

I have a friend with some Arizona property...LOL :yes:
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Splatt » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:58 pm

There more things. He had other basics done.
ff,cc,had a bit of whistle sit, intro to a gun, etc.
But basically he could hunt from day one.
I did the final technical stuff. swim by, wagon wheel, double t, etc.

Yeah, for 3k, to me, money well spent.

Your idea of started and others, Im sure, differs.

Check the dog boards, and see what 3k gets you.
Certainly not a dog ready for senior level. Started, at best, most likely.
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Blackfoot Inc » Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:22 pm

Your Shameless Brag picture, did Trap win all those ribbons?
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Splatt » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:22 pm

I won't say won them.
He earned them by passing the standards set for the levels.
You should know that. Did you run your black female in senior yet?
If so, how'd she do?
Junior isn't worth running as you said.
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Back for more » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:27 pm

So ......... Anyone ready to bust some birds soon ????
It's almost that time boys .

Lets all get along this year lol

WHERE'S THE " pictures to get the blood flowing thread " ?
"When the tires hit the mud , it will right the wrongs"

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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby frogskins01 » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:44 pm

You should get 25% credit. You earned that much but all the things you mentioned your dog came with are the foundations that makes your dog good. It's ok if you buy a started dog or a finished dog just don't show your shameless ribbons that you paid some one else to do all the hard work and you take the credit. As far as you taking a crack at masters don't you have to get 4 passes in a year not 1 out of 4? Also Blackfoot works his arse off with his lab she'll probably become a master way long before you dude.

Soooo

Why don't you smoke another rock and ill smoke another cigarette BROTHER[VICTORY HAND]️

And maybe we can smoke together this weekend at ukc
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby Splatt » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:00 pm

It'll be awesome if she gets master.
Its just an accumulation of 4 passes.

However you wanna look at what I deserve. I have blown 2 tests now due to handler errors.

They ribbons don't mean as much to me as my dog being my buddy and hunting partner.

If your gonna be up here, sure, lets have a smoke break and talk hunting.
I truly hope others have better dogs than I do, and I know there are.

I was just passing on what a good breeder can do to match someone up with a great companion and quality hunter.its all good.
We all have wonderful animals that fill that certain spot in our lives.

Look me up.
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Re: Any lab pups?

Postby quackadikt » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:16 pm

Back for more wrote:So ......... Anyone ready to bust some birds soon ????
It's almost that time boys .

Lets all get along this year lol

WHERE'S THE " pictures to get the blood flowing thread " ?


Jeez us I am...maybe froghumper can teach all of us how to kill a duck and train a dog this year through an instructional pictorial :rolleyes: I mean, are you TRYING to be a douche-pickle froggie?
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