paying For Geese???????

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paying For Geese???????

Postby mailyard » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:27 am

a couple of guys in my area just started leasing fields for geese. I have permission for most of the fields, and only hit them a few times a year at best.

1st. You need the day off from work
2nd. The birds need to be there
3rd. The season must be open.

It seems silly to me to lease a field when you might not ever shoot it. (if i had the tons of $$$ I might think different)

Well anyway I hope the other farmers in the area dont jump on the wagon. Have you other VT boys been seeing this??
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Postby HotDog » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:56 pm

I've heard of some leased fields around the preserve in Addison. And some along route 22a.
I'm lucky to have a friend that farms just north of there that lets us hunt.
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Postby HuntsCTRiver » Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:27 pm

I was thinking of moving over to the middlebury area in the next two years but if this trend is going to continue then I don't want any part of it. I've "hunted" waterfowl in GA and all the land down there is tied up in hunting leases. It totally sucks cuz all the poor folks are crammed onto public land come duck season.
Last edited by HuntsCTRiver on Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby treedog » Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:11 am

in 1987 I had retired to Utah and my brother who lived in Somerset, VT died, he left me his place in Vermont. Long sotry short Bennington County and in the Conn. Valley are the only places Geese are found there in huntable numbers at all, for 16 years I have watched folks pay their lease fees so that 40 different hunters can all mob the same 1200 acres each season. "Clubs" and Leases are common in that southwestern part of Vermont, gun clubs that simply wanted members now vote on whether a person can join or not.

My hunting buddy there explains that this is the way it is done in the cities to the south, CT, NY, NJ, MA, he grew up paying to hunt, trying to get in good with someone that would get him in a private club, this is simply the world they live in and when they come to the country they bring their ways with them.

That is NOT a judgement, it is an observation.

Anywhere you have an influx of people that grow up in a society that money greases the wheels and makes all things possible you are going to have leasing and gun clubs.

The simple math is how many city folks are having kids that move to the country versus how many hillbillys like us are having kids who can hang onto the old ways?

Three pieces of land that I had hunted back in the 70's with my brother are now Clubs, long lists to join, and pretty stiff yearly dues, even longer lists of what is allowed, what size deer you can shoot, who can hunt when and where, etc etc.

I'm an old man, surprised that I may see another season, but you young folks need to make sure the Gov't ( much as I hate to say it) keeps buying and expanding public lands, Half the land the Nature Conservancy buys they shut down to hunting, DU gets into property deals but doesn't make sure we can hunt it, the National Forest Folks have already caved into pressure from antis to stop logging land that really needs to be cut back, if you want to hunt when you are my age, and want your kids to hunt, you msut make sure public lands are available for them to hunt on.

Or hit the lottery so they can maybe get on a waiting list to join a club. :thumbsdown:

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Postby vt dukhntr » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:32 pm

I have heard of the goose club in the Addison area leasing large fields down that way. I know of an individual out of Charlotte that has given a lot of thought to leasing so he can better establish his own guide service. Should I come across a land owner that says they have leased him land I will inform them of his intentions of making money off them without letting them know it.

I can't see the value in leasing lands in VT. There is such a huge path of where the geese feed that you could pay for land and hunt it only a few times each year. I will never pay a lease to hunt geese....they aren't that good. I would help a farmer, give him gifts once in a while, but never going to pay cash for hunting rights for geese.

My opinion in the guys leasing lands here is that they are too lazy to instead volunteer their time and effort to a land owner. Too lazy to scout, and too lazy to get up early enough to get out and set up before the crowd. I think we should get laws about taxing those lease monies instead of going under the table.
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Postby treedog » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:23 pm

Well, all income above $600 needs to be declared.

That is the law, has been since 1932, you aren't cheating Uncle Sam are you? :huh:

At the same time though, any man that turns another in to the Feds won't be drinking from my mason jar anytime soon. :hammer:

Simply go hunt their leases and say you paid Joe Blo $150 at the Diner in town that very morning, or his brother John last night at the tavern for a one day pass to the lease. If they get touchy, apologize, pick up your geese and leave.
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Postby HuntsCTRiver » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:22 am

I like how you think treedog.
I guess if things turn bad on me after I move I can just pack up and relocate to the dakotas.
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Postby vt dukhntr » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:25 pm

Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to run squealing to the feds about lease money. Really the only person I would say anything to is the land owners that lease to a particular individual. The land owners that give him permission to hunt are not aware that he is running a guide service on their lands making money off their generosity. That's an issue with him that isn't really so much related to the subject of the thread.
As for leases in general they drive up the cost for the average Joe to go out and enjoy hunting. So many people complain about losing gun rights, and hunting rights, etc... yet leasing land can and will eventually drive up the cost of hunting to the point where a lot of average joes can't afford it. I'm much more in favor of permission granted in exchange for labor. Get your hands dirty on the grounds you want to hunt. Give a little something back to a land owner that's affordable for everyone.
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Postby mailyard » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:41 pm

i guess i am just angry it is inevitable. I went to arkansas and hunted with charles "hammer time" snap, and he was bragging he had basically exclusive rights to every bird within 30 miles which is great from a business standpoint. But that really sucks for all of the local hunters. One local was telling me they barely go out anymore beacuse they cant compete with the $$$ of the big operations
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Postby vt dukhntr » Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:26 am

Thankfully that isn't as likely to happen here. You have to also realize a lot of the midwest and south that are familiar with leasing, the land owned by 1 guy is 1000s of acres. It's easy to wrap up a lease with 1 or 2 purchases. Around here one guy might own 1000 acres total, but its spread out over an entire town and not centrally located to one hunting spot. In a lot of cases you would need to buy several small leases.
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Postby ronvt » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:35 pm

I could not disagree more. It is getting harder and harder to hunt local fields. Increased hunting pressure and increased homes, decreased fields. Farmers are being aproached by more and more hunters every year. The lease is inevitable. It may not happen this year or next, but it is coming. As far as being lazy...I think you have it wrong. I have volunteered to work on farms, to split the birds taken, or whatever it may take...only to be turned down. Guys that have been hunting fields in the past act like they own them and are not willing to share. I have aproached other hunters about allowing me to hunt with them..only to be turned down. Waterfowl hunters can be the nicest people in the world...until you want to hunt THEIR field. I scout 3xweek, and my hunting partner does the same. But it is getting to the point of considering leasing. We are responsible, dedicated, commited waterfowl hunters who in the next year or two will be introducing our kids to waterfowl hunting. I am not asking for anyone to give up there honey hole, only if you have permission on multiple fields to allow other hunters to have a chance. How much fun is it for kids on an unsuccessful hunt? I can deal with that, but new hunters will lose interest fast if the hunts are not successful. I am taking two trips this year to hunt geese in other states. I am going with 4 guys. It will cost alot of money. Why should I not take that money and lease local land? I am sure farmers could use a little extra. Once the leases strart, hunters will be outbidding each other in upcoming years. I don't blame the farmers...there caught between a rock and a hardplace. Should they give permission to me, who is willing to work on there farm, split the take, be thankful, apreciative and a steward of the land or, should they let there high school friend hunt who they have known there whole life? Leases are already in the other parts of the state, if they come north, ask yourself why. I forget who said this: We have met the enemy and they are us!
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Postby yellodog1 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:18 am

The more we get in to leasing hunting land, the more it cuts off hunting opportunities to those that cant afford it. How do we get younger hunters interested in the sport if they dont have access to the land.
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Postby ronvt » Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:50 pm

I totally agree. But with hunting pressure increasing and available farms decreasing, both myself and my hunters partners have noticed that it is getting more difficult to find land to hunt on. We make every opportunity to ask permission on all the land we hunt, not just the posted land. I think alot of hunters ask permission and never hunt that land or only get out once or twice. So when you ask the farmer he is under the assumption his land is already being hunted. I would prefer to hunt the old fashioned way: scout, find the birds, ask permission, hunt, and share the game with the landowner. We all know that what determines a successful hunt is the amount of birds in the area. So it makes sense that you would be contacting different landowners through the course of a season. I do not want to lease land to lockout other hunters, only to ensure that I do have a place to take my kids when it comes time. And if that requires a lease....so be it. We get younger hunters interested in hunting by becoming a mentor, going to state and federal programs designed for kids, (mississquoi and dead creek). These programs are some of the best I have ever encountered. I recently attended the Mississquoi waterfowl program with my daughter and I have to say....it was superb.. The employees at the refuge deserve a medal. It surpassed all my expectations and my daughter loved it.
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Postby magogwhacker » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:27 am

Lets not forget that the price of milk is so low most dairy operations are not profitable.....can you blame 'em for making a little quick cash on a lease? I agree that its too bad to see things go that way, but it may be inevitable.
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Postby Simba » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:13 pm

I'm new here and while I would agree that access to the resource is one of the biggest obstacles to pretty much all hunting, I don't think that leases will be having a huge impact on Vermont. Landowners just don't own enough contiguous parcels to control an entire area for one thing. Another consideration is that although many live here and enjoy hunting here, I just don't think the waterfowl hunting is good enough to justify large scale leasing. I also don't think that you would be able to document much of the leasing going on. I wouldn't turn anyone in but I'm sure most of that land is in the current use program. If land is in current use, the landowner can post it but he can't charge a fee for hunting it. If he gives permission to hunt, it must be for free. That's another reason I don't think you'll see large scale leasing. The farmers just can't charge enough to offset the extra property taxes they would have to pay. With that being said, I think we are our own worst enemy. I have permission to hunt a fair amount of posted land, and granted it's mostly for upland hunting, but the stories the landowners tell me of disrespectful hunters is alarming. I work hard to treat them with respect, leave their property the way I found it, and let them know when I am there. It's a complicated problem and no easy answer.
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Postby yellodog1 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:45 pm

Thats another issue that Simba brings up. Land in Current Use being Posted. To me that is beyond belief, that you could put 100's of acres of your land in current use to reduce your taxes, and then post it. I dont have a problem posting a certain percentage of your land for yourself, but if you are getting a break on your taxes, it should be open to hunting and fishing.
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Postby Simba » Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:48 pm

I just want to make sure I'm not miss-quoted. Land enrolled in current use can be posted and I really don't have a problem with that. The purpose of current use is to keep the land open and free from development, not to give the public hunting rights. I think a landowner has the right to regulate who has access to his land if he chooses to. Even if they are getting a tax break, they did pay for the land and are paying some taxes. And in most cases, it is the land that provides them with an income. So I have no problem with them being enrolled in current use, posting their land, and then granting permission to hunt or not as they see fit. The legislature says that if your land is in current use, you cannot charge for the use of it for things like hunting. In effect, you can't get the tax break, and then create an income from it with activities other than farming. I would have to look up the regulation to be specific on what is allowed or not. I know it's a drag if it's posted, but would you rather have a sub-division on the property?

From my experience, much of the friction between landowners and hunters is caused by hunters themselves. I know that the ones that create the problem are very much in the minority but if a landowner gets treated with disrespect, or a hunter trashes one of his fields, that is the perspective that he will making decision with. And a person's perspective is their reality, even if it is flawed.
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