Blind Laws discussion, Good, Bad??????

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Postby Big Shorty » Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:44 pm

pec - I read that when it came out a few years ago. They hit all around the issues, but the commission lacked support to really go after it, although - they actually stated that most of the blind law structure was satisfactory. But, if you reconvened a commission like that today - who knows what they would recommend, considering the fallout from VDGIF management late last year.
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Postby MIKE J. » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:06 pm

PEC, thanks for the link, yes it answered my questions for the most part. some of the survey comments were interesting. :thumbsup:
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Postby cut_un » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:41 am

Soooooo, seems to be more wrongs that rights on this topic, is there anyway we as waterfowlers can "right" some of these "wrongs" and (try) to bring both sides together???? After all, we should try to leave this world better than we found it :cool:
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Postby LEWDOG » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:11 am

BS I have always been told that as far as east of I 95 that the blind laws wasn't at Eastern Shore and Back Bay b/c these two spots are where guides are at and that they didn't want them . I can see how this could be true with them renting land to guide on that they wouldn't want to have to buy a license too . Plus if blind laws was in those areas people would put up water blinds instead of paying big bucks to use a guide .

Then there is this thing knowed as navigable waters which I though was water deep enought to run a boat but come to find out is waters that commerce has taken place on . Well Market Hunting at one time was a business so a ditch could be navigable waters . That would make the I 95 line to work in the blind law thing b/c it would be my guess that market hunters of waterfowl would have been done only on the east side of the state , being that there was a heck of a lot of fowl here doing those days .

:smile: LD :smile:

PS:
LEWDOG - to your point about residing in the county in the which the blind is situated, I offer the following. At issue would be the limitation of "public" water throughout the state, whereby taxes, licenses, and other paid monies by sportsman could not be enjoyed due to the boundaries of their residential jurisdiction. Further, some boundary areas would need clarification - considering that waterways are often used as the definition of boundary lines for localities - which would mean money spent by the state to exactly define the "middle" or "channel" of particular waters.
I see what you are saying and agree , I would change what I said to "own land in the county of the blind" . But really the blind laws work here in Mathews and anywhere where there is a coast , it's when you take these laws in a river or lake that they start to break down :smile: .
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Postby Big Shorty » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:17 pm

cut_un wrote:Soooooo, seems to be more wrongs that rights on this topic, is there anyway we as waterfowlers can "right" some of these "wrongs" and (try) to bring both sides together???? After all, we should try to leave this world better than we found it :cool:


Not by my count, cut_un. The commission a few years ago (refering to pec's link above) was really deemed to review the situations across the state. As such, they did not recommend whole or sweeping changes - merely tweaks of verbiage, and specific locality revisions. Notice - they supported the bulf of the laws as written - that means that "our" peers and people on the commission AGREED with the laws, as they stand. So - given a carte blanche review - they LEFT THEM ALONE. Ergo - not as many WRONG as WERE RIGHT.



The ONLY issue that I I have with blind laws is the floating tag regulations (un-enforceable, and mean very little to protecting the "rights" of the license holder). The stationary blind laws however, are fair and enforceable. Partuiclarly, they protect the rights of the property holder.
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Postby LEWDOG » Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:11 pm

Now I have a question no two questions , (1) Does one have to have a blind tag and license on a Stationary blind on land that they own the hunting rights to if they don't care if other hunters hunt within the 500 yards of said blind ? (2) To read the law as writen a boat that has anything other then paint must have a floating blind license . But if a floater doesn't care about the 500 yards that comes with the tag & license why can't they hunt it without the tag and license ?

I have 6 stationary blinds and 5 floating blinds , every year I pay my money to get the license for each of the fixed and I buy two for the floaters (move the tag to the one being use) but I put the tags inside them so anyone can hunt around them when I am not hunting them . I buy them b/c a local GW told me that I must 20 years ago or more , but two years ago when I was up at a meeting at DGIF I asked these questions to the head Bio at richmond in the parking lot before the meeting and he told me that I didn't have to , I still do b/c it's better to be safe then sorry .
One more thing , where does PIT BLINDS fall into this mix ? I had a idea of taking a old fiberglass boat out to a sandy island and digging a hole and putting it in the sand , then using plywood make a top so the whole thing would be under the sand . I then could take a pump to get the water out of it before I hunt it .

Botton Line - the State of Va. is going to get its money , all of this blind money is going into the GP funds and will be use anywhere anyway that they want to use it and all us little people can do is pay the man :pissed: .

:eek: LD :eek:
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Postby LEWDOG » Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:30 pm

BS I agree with everthing you have said on this subject except for this
The stationary blind laws however, are fair and enforceable. Partuiclarly, they protect the rights of the property holder.
If you had of said they protect the rights of the owner of the hunting rights holder it would have been 100% . I say this b/c of a fixed blind knowed as a Water blind , for a waterblind has rights over a property owner after the cut off date , as well a float blind owner .

:smile: LD :smile:
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Postby Big Shorty » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:56 pm

LEWDOG wrote:Now I have a question no two questions , (1) Does one have to have a blind tag and license on a Stationary blind on land that they own the hunting rights to if they don't care if other hunters hunt within the 500 yards of said blind ? (2) To read the law as writen a boat that has anything other then paint must have a floating blind license . But if a floater doesn't care about the 500 yards that comes with the tag & license why can't they hunt it without the tag and license ?


Simply put - the law says:
§ 29.1-340. Hunting waterfowl from unlicensed blinds and without season license.

It shall be unlawful to hunt migratory waterfowl on the public waters and shores east of Interstate Route 95 in the Commonwealth from unlicensed stationary or floating blinds. For the purposes of this article, the term "public waters" means public waters which are navigable in fact. Any person hunting waterfowl shall also have a season license to hunt.

Thus - no hunting from unlicensed blinds....period.


LEWDOG wrote:I have 6 stationary blinds and 5 floating blinds , every year I pay my money to get the license for each of the fixed and I buy two for the floaters (move the tag to the one being use)


LEWDOG - I hate to tell you - but you are breaking the law. While the state says you can have 2 float blind licenses........

§ 29.1-342. Floating blinds.

Floating blinds shall mean floating blinds permitted by law in the public waters. They may be used in any position in public waters at different locations from day to day if the blind is anchored the required distance from any other blind, unless agreed otherwise between the parties. Licenses for floating blinds shall be limited to two floating blinds in any one season, to any one applicant.


.....the law also says........

§ 29.1-346. When license for floating blinds issued; distance from stationary blinds.

Licenses for floating blinds permitted by law, in the public waters, may be obtained on and after July 1. Floating blinds shall have a license plate supplied with the license for that season affixed to the blind. Floating blinds, including any accompanying boat or tender, shall anchor or tie out at least 500 yards from any licensed stationary blind for shooting, whether on the shore or in the water, unless agreed otherwise between the parties.


So - I do not know how you have affixed two tags to two boats and somehow transfer the "affixed" tag to the other 3 boats - but it is illegal to do so, and punishable as a state game violation (although a federal warden may take the citation to federal court, depending on the circumstances)




As for your 6 stationary blinds - I hope all but 2 are riparian property licensed tags becasue.......

§ 29.1-341.1. Number of stationary blinds permitted; when erected.

Clubs or individuals who do not own riparian rights shall be permitted to license no more than two stationary blinds in the public waters in any one season. Stationary blinds shall be erected not later than November 1 of each year.

LEWDOG wrote:One more thing , where does PIT BLINDS fall into this mix ? I had a idea of taking a old fiberglass boat out to a sandy island and digging a hole and putting it in the sand , then using plywood make a top so the whole thing would be under the sand . I then could take a pump to get the water out of it before I hunt it .


It would be a blind, requiring a license, if you plan to harveswt, attempt to harvest, or hunt waterfowl from it.......period. No question about the intent, but I would question whose property you are going to do this on...public or private? Does not matter - you would need to tag it to be legal.


LEWDOG wrote:
Botton Line - the State of Va. is going to get its money , all of this blind money is going into the GP funds and will be use anywhere anyway that they want to use it and all us little people can do is pay the man :pissed: .

:eek: LD :eek:


I do not know if the money goes to the Virginia GP fund or not.......do you have a link or something from a website? I can't find anything......
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Postby MIKE J. » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:19 pm

§ 29.1-348. Obtaining licenses.

All applications for blind licenses under this article shall be made to the local license agent or clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which or nearest which the blind site is located. The clerk or local license agent shall be paid similar fees as for issuing hunting licenses. With each license the clerk or local license agent shall deliver a license plate bearing the number of the license, which shall be affixed to the blind where it may be easily observed. The Department shall furnish the licenses and license plates provided for in this article. The money arising from the sale of blind licenses shall be paid into the game protection fund.
(Code 1950, § 29-89; 1987, c. 488.)
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Postby LEWDOG » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:03 pm

Who me breaking laws , never heck I don't even drive over 55 on rt 17 . All of my blinds are on my rip hunting grounds and my float tags are affixed to the blind but the blind is moved from boat to boat .

I'm sorry but there is no way for the man to know now many floaters a floating blind tag is use on , IMHO a hunter would be a dang fool to buy 10 $35. license if he has 10 floaters unless they all are going to be use at the same time .
Just where does one find all of these "§ 29.1-340 , § 29.1-342 , § 29.1-346 , § 29.1-341.1. dang number laws and why would one want to find them in the first place ? I go to a sporting store to buy my license , I fill out the paper work and they give me the metal plates and stamps and a book title Virginia Migratory Waterfowl 200* - 200@ seasons and bag limits and in that book I find all the laws and such that I will need to hunt . That crap that you put up on here is for GW's and lawyers and as long as I stay in the blinds on the hunt I should never need to know about such things .
OK now that we are pass all of that let's go back to the pit blind deal , I see where a boat is a boat and if something is added (under sand with a plywood top) it would need a license , but what if it was just dirt ( a hole in the earth) ? wouldn't that be like a hollow tree , a natural blind ?

:smile: LD :smile:
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Postby MIKE J. » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:07 pm

(although a federal warden may take the citation to federal court, depending on the circumstances)



Big S, need more clarification on why the federal Warden would even be looking into blind violations. What federal statue is being violated.?


By the way thanks for the feedback on this topic.. I have learned alot in the last few days. :thumbsup:
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Postby FEATHERBUSTER » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:26 pm

AFTER READING ALL THESE POST, I REMEMBER WHY I LOVE TO HUNT WEST OF 95. ANYTIME ANYBODY GETS TIRED OF ALL THESE LAWS THERE IS PLENTY OF ROOM FOR MORE FLOATERS WITH ME WEST OF 95 :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
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Postby LEWDOG » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:19 pm

Thanks for the invite but I have this creek that I am the only blind owner on it , there are no homes on it and there is more mud then water , anytime I want to get away from people I go in there . It's nice b/c I know that I can get my limits of Black duck and Sawbills :toofunny: .

:thumbsup: LD :thumbsup:
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Postby Big Shorty » Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:41 am

LEWDOG wrote:I'm sorry but there is no way for the man to know now many floaters a floating blind tag is use on , IMHO a hunter would be a dang fool to buy 10 $35. license if he has 10 floaters unless they all are going to be use at the same time .


It is illegal, just the same. And the Warden can easily find out - all he has to do is see that tag number on different "vessels". Besides - you are posting on the internet that you "swap tags". While the internet can be an anonymous place, given the right circumstances, your identity can be acquired, and a n investigation initiated.

LEWDOG wrote:Just where does one find all of these "§ 29.1-340 , § 29.1-342 , § 29.1-346 , § 29.1-341.1. dang number laws and why would one want to find them in the first place ?


They are located here:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+TOC2901000. I for one want ot know the laws about hunting, other hunters legal limits, and my rights as a property owner. To each his own, I guess. - But, in all honesty - it's a self-development tactic. I enjoy personal growth bying educating myself in areas of interst and interaction, thus, I read the laws and regulations for myself, in lieu of depending on someone's elses opinions.

LEWDOG wrote:I go to a sporting store to buy my license , I fill out the paper work and they give me the metal plates and stamps and a book title Virginia Migratory Waterfowl 200* - 200@ seasons and bag limits and in that book I find all the laws and such that I will need to hunt .


Not true - those digest are condensed pamphlets, and are not complete regulation guide books. They address the most prominent matters regarding hunting - but this discussion isn't about the simple parts of the law, now is it? Let me ask you - is the "pit blind" question you have answered directly, clearly, and concisely in that pamphlet?

LEWDOG wrote:That crap that you put up on here is for GW's and lawyers and as long as I stay in the blinds on the hunt I should never need to know about such things .


Certainly your opinion to do so.....but, I do not take such risks. Besides, educating myself on the law allows me to speak intelligently to other hunters, sportsman, and Game department officials, when the opportunity arises.


LEWDOG wrote:OK now that we are pass all of that let's go back to the pit blind deal , I see where a boat is a boat and if something is added (under sand with a plywood top) it would need a license , but what if it was just dirt ( a hole in the earth) ? wouldn't that be like a hollow tree , a natural blind ?

:smile: LD :smile:


A blind, is a blind, is a blind....and requires a license. Nowhere does the statute define a blind by shape, material, or construction method - merely by size (must conceal a hunter or boat).


Mike J. -
Regarding the link - Thanks. I didn't read LEWDOG's post close enough last ime - he meant Game Protection fund, and abbreviated it GP........thus, I thought he meant General Purpose Fund of the Virginia General Assembly......my error, I Should have re-read his post for clarity.

Regarding the Federal Warden- Most "field" work is where a State Warden (VDGIF) is paired up with a Federal Warden (USFWS) and they patrol or investigate cases together, and they are enforcing all applicable Game laws for the area they are in. The purpose is to leverage the government's opportunity for enforcement - where the State Warden is the area "knowledge expert" on the ground, and the "heavy gun" is the Federal Warden for prosecutorial purposes. So - in the swapping float blind tags issue - the State Warden could start an investigation, and then find no other charges - thus a State Court appearence would be the matter of course. However, the investigation could reveal that not only is the person swapping float blind tags, baiting a marsh, and illegally trapping ducks - then the Federal Warden would engage the case and all citations are federally prosecuted. The difference being the gravity of the TOTAL nature of the offense, not just one single instance of swapping a float blind tag.

Basically - the Federal Warden will normally engage in investigations and cases of significant crime or violation. However, in certain areas of the Country - and Virginia in particular - they are the primary means of waterfowl regulation enforcement. Believe, I know first hand just how the Federal Warden can make blind laws his business.

On another note - there is no blind worth having when huntin in 65 degree weather......I am tired of breaking into a sweat setting decoys. My dog hasn't seen his neoprene jacket all year. Where is the cold and ice?
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Postby LEWDOG » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:36 pm

BS one must break a law before getting a court date , saying a law was broken is just talk and I do a lot of talking on these forums . If a GW would come to a chat room to find a law breaker that GW needs to look for a new job b/c he is clearly not doing the job he is getting paid to do . If one wanted to know who I am all they need to do is ask and I would give them the info needed to come see me . I saw a GW out in the marsh 20 years ago , he was federal . We talked for 30 min. or more , never seen him or any other GW again out in the marsh . 10 years ago I was using a public boat ramp and a local GW drove up and got out to check me in his wing tip shoes , that was the last time I used a public boat ramp .
I agree with mike about this thread the more we talk about it the more we learnbut out of the grand number of fowlers in this state there is so few that know about the blind laws . Most only know what is in the booklet that I was talking about , so yet I don't know it all I do know more then most .
I disagree with you on the natural blinds , for no one is going to buy a blind license for a low spot on a sandy beach or a hollow tree in a woods next to a pond nor would a GW would look for one on those spots . But hey if we all agreed all the time we wouldn't have anything to talk about on the forums , Right .

:smile: LD :smile:
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Postby Big Shorty » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:52 pm

You seem to have some definite opinions about the enforcement divison of the Game department, I see.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind, or even show cause as to good, bad or indifferent. I have experinces that have led me to be exacting in the regards of waterfowling, and I can only wish no one else ever gets into the same shoes.

My one peice of advice that I offer free of charge - so take it for what you paid for it - "Do not under estimate the government, at any level".
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Postby LEWDOG » Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:18 pm

BS not sure what to say about that first line b/c I can't form a opinion on there job being that I have only seen them doing there job out where our sport takes place twice in 20 years . Being that this thread is about blinds I think it needs to be said that traspassing isn't a game law so the GW's don't need to keep a eye out on blinds unless someone makes a call to say that they have someone traspassing and wants it to stop . For the most part waterfowlers have to much to loose to break any game laws , knowing that what they do is being watch by the public , GW's , VMP , VMRC , CG , and by other waterfowlers .

What is the game protection fund , I mean this fund is getting a lot of money that is earmarked to protect game so I have to ask FROM WHO or FROM WHAT ? While I'm at it what game , this is waterfowl money so why say game shouldn't it be Waterfowl Protection Fund ? I think it's just a fancy name for General Purpose Fund of the VDGIF , I'm sure that they have a coffee pot at work .

:smile: LD :smile:
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Postby Big Shorty » Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:02 pm

LEWDOG wrote: BS not sure what to say about that first line b/c I can't form a opinion on there job being that I have only seen them doing there job out where our sport takes place twice in 20 years .


I may have read the other posts in the wrong manner - I thought when you referred to seeing a GW twice in 20 years, that you were incinuating that they are not doing there job in your hunting area. Because you made the "wing tip" comment, I thought you were referring to their "lack of field work" and that they were more office oriented than field tested. Is that what you meant?


LEWDOG wrote:I disagree with you on the natural blinds , for no one is going to buy a blind license for a low spot on a sandy beach or a hollow tree in a woods next to a pond nor would a GW would look for one on those spots .


When you say "no one is going to buy a blind license" - you are incorrect. A hunter would buy it to have a 500 yard protection from infringment, as well as to legally hunt the blind. But - I will not make catergorical generalizations about EVERY situation - which many people do. Which is the big problem - EVERYONE wants BLACK AND WITE answers - when the reality of it is - some cases are judgement calls, require talented interpretation (GW training, legal research, etc), or are up to the prosecuting perogatgive of the enforcement agency. In other words - a low sandy spot, or a hollow tree may need a blind license - if the Game official says it does. Get my point?

LEWDOG wrote: But hey if we all agreed all the time we wouldn't have anything to talk about on the forums , Right .

LD



Exactly. :thumbsup:
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Postby LEWDOG » Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:37 pm

Please don't take this wrong but you don't have to quote everything just say what you want to say .
The wing tip comment was to show that that GW had no plans of going pass the tar road . The blind tag thing was done at the start of the season it's called a floating blind . One would buy it for there boat so when they find a good spot with a natural blind they have the 500 yards covered . Are you telling us that you have never hunted behine a tree or stood in some tall grass to hunt without buying a blind tag for it before the season started ?
By now you must know that I enjoy a good argument / debate and in doing it everyone learns things they didn't know , in this thread I found out that by law we can only have two floating blind tags which will save me $35.00 next time I go to get my license . I agree with you about floaters , they should be done away with being that there wouldn't be anyway of proving who was first . Many of a time I have put my floater on a spot and would leave it there all season to control the spot but never though that I couldn't prove it .

:smile: LD :smile:
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