Swamp Collie training help!

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Swamp Collie training help!

Postby duckmedic1 » Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:06 pm

I need some help! I've got a 5 year old male Golden Retriever. He's purebred, AKC registered, comes from a long line of hunting champs. He's been a family dog, but we worked with him some when he was young and he loves to retrieve. Not gun shy at all. I think there's still hope to hunt with him, I've just never trained him to hand and whistle signals. Never trained a gun dog... If anyone has done this before and would let me pick your brains about it I'd really appreciate it. I know this is the wrong time of year to start something like this, but the past year has been a little hectic and it is what it is.

Also, we're about to get him clipped, but if anyone has a female and would be interested in breeding with him , I'd love to talk to you

Thanks!
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby nvwaterfowl » Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:35 am

Get the book by Richardd Wolters "Water Dog" best book around. That's what I am using to trian my Choc. Lab pup.
Also DON"T clip his hair, He neeeds that for ventilation. Just my .02 cents. He's a nice looking GR.
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby Big Iron » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:39 am

Probably means getting his doo-dads clipped as opposed to his coat, although the girl dogs might make fun of him with short hair so that might make it hard to breed him....
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby bass_hunter » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:46 am

I second the book( Water Dog ) but get the dvd. If you live near me you can use mine. If i can get it back from the last person i loaned it too.
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby Tangier Island Slacker » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:54 am

You're gonna cut his nuts off at 5? Why do you hate your dog?
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby duckmedic1 » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:39 pm

Yeah by clipped I meant his manhood, but he's starting to calm down so I might save his dignity. I'll look into the book, thanks!
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby Dingbatter 2 » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:16 pm

Pretty easy to train a retriever. Throw a dummy (not your buddy!) into the nearest body of water and tell them fetch or "back". Once they figure that out you're good to go. My dogs just picked up on hand signals. When they couldn't find a bird or something I would yell and point and they would head that way. Make it fun and if you have a dog with half a brain you won't have any problems. I don't like whistles. Same goes for clowns. Both give me the heeby-geeby's. I guess that's why they made it illegal to use a rifle for duck hunting. There's always some idiot in the next blind or hedgerow blowing a whistle all morning long and just out of shotgun range. Probably works as a clown too. :lol3:
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby Mudgun » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:43 pm

Oh my Holy Gawd.

This thread is UPS RED NDA EARLY AM.

It delivers.
NOW WITH MORE 100% MORE VITRIOLIC SARCASM!!!
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby Have Gun Will Travel » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:37 pm

Mudgun wrote:Oh my Holy Gawd.

This thread is UPS RED NDA EARLY AM.

It delivers.



Planning to include dog training in your how to program? Seems there is a need. :lol3:
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby duckmedic1 » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:58 pm

Mudgun wrote:Oh my Holy Gawd.

This thread is UPS RED NDA EARLY AM.

It delivers.


... I have no idea whats going on here...
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby duckmedic1 » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:59 pm

Got to work with him a bit this morning with some fresh birds, he retrieves well and has a soft mouth. There might be hope yet!
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby missybuto » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:50 pm

Had a few in my time... Just be ready for when they come out of the beaver pond....looks like little black sambo..These dogs thrive on praise and showing off the fruits of their retrieve..Carries ducks and squirrels back to truck at end of day and wants you to vocalate her deeds along the way.. Rather spend time in the H2O than on land looking for cripples. Had her for 20 years she traveled all over the country hunting and fishing with me. She will be remembered for her exploits in the field as well as a buddy ready to go rain or shine.
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:44 am

Dingbatter 2 wrote:Pretty easy to train a retriever. Throw a dummy (not your buddy!) into the nearest body of water and tell them fetch or "back". Once they figure that out you're good to go.

Yep- that's all there is to it :lol3: :lol3:
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby kahunna » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:10 am

missy - Girlfriend, you may want to re-watch Tam Hanks' movie "Cast Away" or you could stay in a Holiday Inn Express tonight.
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby labman63 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:03 am

You beat me to it Swampy, that made me chuckle pretty good. I have been doing all this training and drills and teaching blinds and all along all I to do was point. Also there are a whole lot better stuff than Waterdog. It is so outdated.
To the OP, at the age of your dog I would probably just let him pic up what he sees fall and help him on the rest. You can teach simple handling in he yard if you have the time. First teach sit to a whistle. Then have him sit facing you and toss a bumper left and give him a left over(hold arm straight out and say OVER. Do this for both sides then back over his head. Hold arm straight up and say BACK. This should get you some rude handling on hunting distance birds. Good luck.
PS if that don't work just point lmao



swampbilly 1980 wrote:
Dingbatter 2 wrote:Pretty easy to train a retriever. Throw a dummy (not your buddy!) into the nearest body of water and tell them fetch or "back". Once they figure that out you're good to go.

Yep- that's all there is to it :lol3: :lol3:
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby nvwaterfowl » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:32 am

To Labman

quote: "Also there are a whole lot better stuff than Waterdog. It is so outdated"

Well if is so outdated than please tell us what is better. Since most of the trainers today use the same methods
as are in "WATER DOG"to train their dogs. In fact I have seen some of these supposed well trained dogs, :lol3: the minute the gun goes off they break.

Just remember this book was originally written back in the early sixties. More than likley before any of the newer trainers were even born.

So again tell me what's better.
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby duckmedic1 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:20 am

labman63 wrote:Also there are a whole lot better stuff than Waterdog. It is so outdated.


I have minimal experience when it comes to training dogs, but I will say I've talked to a lot of experienced people, and Water Dog comes highly recommended. I think you're the first to say something negative about it lol. From what I've read it seems like a pretty solid method. What else would you recommend? I've got the Wildrose kennels DVD too I've yet to watch
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby recoil slinger » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:06 am

duckmedic1 wrote:
labman63 wrote:Also there are a whole lot better stuff than Waterdog. It is so outdated.


I have minimal experience when it comes to training dogs, but I will say I've talked to a lot of experienced people, and Water Dog comes highly recommended. I think you're the first to say something negative about it lol. From what I've read it seems like a pretty solid method. What else would you recommend? I've got the Wildrose kennels DVD too I've yet to watch
ive had the book and highly reccomend it. i might still have it if you wanna borrow it. just dont see y my wife wont retrieve. ive read it five times :thumbsup:
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby Big Iron » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:51 pm

Waterdog is like Vince Lombardi, best of his time but if he came into the NFL and tried to coach like he did in 1965, Bill Belechik would work him like a rented mule.

Nothing wrong with Waterdog and you can train your dog using it but Tom Dokken, Evan Graham, Mike Lardy (among others) have all written books/developed programs that will produce a better dog...in most cases.
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:19 am

Good discussion here on this guys, glad, (real glad), to see it can be discussed civily for once :clapping: :yes:

Labman is right, there is training material out there that would be considered more informative than Waterdog, that can offer up some more solid fundamentals in terms of field work and/or a reliable Gundog trained for utility.
That said-
Although Waterdog a little antiquated, it was material that a lot of us have used, (and some still do) that did in fact, get a dog to a level that a dog would retrieve most birds. Can't remember what pro said it, but "If you can teach a dog to take an OVER and a BACK a fella' can find most birds.
While that's somewhat true, I've always tried to impress upon folks that the training material that you choose to use should be based on a couple things-
*Your goals for the dog in the end
*Your ability to dedicate the time to properly train regardless of the training material that's chosen.

The 1983 copy of Waterdog I used back then got me to a point, however that level left me with a lot of training holes and blanks that needed to be "filled in" as the years went on. There's nothing any more disheartening than casting your dog BACK to a blind where the dog needs to swim out across the creek, run through cover, negotiate an obstacle, then cross another creek to pick up a bird, and he just sits there looking at you as if to say- " Huh,..you talkin' to me boss :huh: ?"

So for me, if you're happy with what you've trained up in your dog, then that's great! As long as it works for ya', that's what's important. :thumbsup:
On the flip side-
Would hope that those who've chosen train to a more advanced level would get the same respect and not be judged as well.

Respectfully-
Folks that believe training a dog is "easy" might have a different definition of "trained".
And that's o.k. too.
However,.. find it amusing when the statement is made. Believe that sooner or later for some, there's tasks that one may ask of their dog and the dog simply doesn't have to skill set to perform what's being asked of it.
Think then- one will discover that it really ain't so "easy".

:beer:
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:41 am

nvwaterfowl wrote:To Labman

quote: "Also there are a whole lot better stuff than Waterdog. It is so outdated"


Well if is so outdated than please tell us what is better. Since most of the trainers today use the same methods
as are in "WATER DOG"to train their dogs. In fact I have seen some of these supposed well trained dogs, :lol3: the minute the gun goes off they break.

Just remember this book was originally written back in the early sixties. More than likley before any of the newer trainers were even born.

So again tell me what's better.

Know the question is for Labman, but if ya' don't mind, I'll give it a shot as well :beer:

If one insists on Non-Force training material, (which there's nuthin' in the world wrong with that), I'd consider Mike Stewart and the Wildrose Way. (If you can get past 'ole Mike chanting "This is how we do it"- 'The Wildrose Way" thoughout the DvD, then you'll be o.k. :yes: )

Just believe I walked away from his training material with more than I did with Waterdog.
And for those of you that advocate Waterdog and have trained with it, I'm not knocking you or your dawg at all! :smile: Heck I trained with it, and hunted a dog for over a decade with thousands of retrieves under the dogs' collar.
Again-
I did have to "fill in the blanks" afterwards however, because I wanted more than what I got out of it that's all :hi:
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby nvwaterfowl » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:11 am

I was not trying to denegrate anyone elses training method and if I did I humbly apologize.
This is somewhat new to me since this is my first lab. This is the book that was recommended
to me to start her out for obedience training. To that end it is working so far.
She is thirteen weeks old now and she sits and comes to her name when called. she has been doing this since she was 10 weeks old. She is retreiveing and returning a ball to hand about six out of seven times then she says I don't want to play no more. According to the book she is on schedule. Now I have to start her on heeling. We have had her since she was seven weeks old. In all likley hood I will be taking her to be trained by a professional. If any of you have someone that you consider to be really good and not real expensive let me know. She does retrieve the doken decoys I have to hand also. After about a dozen times of that she wants to lay down and chew on the cord at that point it gets put up. So any help would be greatly appreciated. One last thing she is a chocolate lab and weighs about 22 lbs now. Her name is Shelby.
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby Big Iron » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:56 am

Always keep a check cord her when fetching now, that way she always has to bring it back to you.

Train her yourself, if you dedicate even a little time to it every day chances are you will be much happier with the dog in the end and thousands of dollars richer than if you send her to a local professional trainer.
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby duckmedic1 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:49 am

Watched the Wildrose Kennels DVD last night, had a lot of good info. Geared towards starting the training from a very young age, so I didn't get much out of it for my current dog, but I'll definitely consider it in the future. Like labman said I think for where my dog is at now he'll be able to retrieve what he sees, and I can help him with the rest. Won't be perfect I'm sure, but it'll be fun to get the dog out there and see what he can do.
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Re: Swamp Collie training help!

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:36 pm

nvwaterfowl wrote:I was not trying to denegrate anyone elses training method and if I did I humbly apologize.

No worries, don't believe anyone saw it that way :smile:


She is thirteen weeks old now and she sits and comes to her name when called. she has been doing this since she was 10 weeks old. She is retreiveing and returning a ball to hand about six out of seven times then she says I don't want to play no more.

That's good! If it were me, I'd knock that down to 4 or 5 retrieves, (with no expectations). That way pup isn't ending the fun herself,..you are ending the fun, and you're ending it on a successful note- not a refusal from the pup.

According to the book she is on schedule. Now I have to start her on heeling. We have had her since she was seven weeks old. In all likley hood I will be taking her to be trained by a professional. If any of you have someone that you consider to be really good and not real expensive let me know. She does retrieve the doken decoys I have to hand also. After about a dozen times of that she wants to lay down and chew on the cord at that point it gets put up. So any help would be greatly appreciated. One last thing she is a chocolate lab and weighs about 22 lbs now. Her name is Shelby.

Again, pup more than likely getting bored with the same 'ole, same 'ole Singles. I'd reduce the amount of marks you're giving her, and end it with success.

Think of it this way nv,..what is pup accomplishing with a dozen or more meaningless marks thrown over and over again? Keep it short-n-sweet, and successful. Challenge pup from time to time by tossing a mark in the edge of some cover, and let her mark and sniff it out. Not too deep though, you want success.

Not knockin' 'ya, just keeping it real :thumbsup:

As far as HEELING, sometimes that is best left alone until HERE is understood. Some folks don't work on it until formal training. You don't want to suck the drive out of pup with too much structure early on. You can take it out, but you can't put it back in. I'd get pup on some live clipped winged birds, (pigeons) in the yard and introduce- let her give chase.
It's something a pro is going to ask if you've done yet. Let her be successful.

Lastly-
Keep retrieving and Obedience, (yard work) separate venues.
Then bring them together later in formal training.
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