Surface Drive Build **Update 10/20**

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Surface Drive Build **Update 10/20**

Postby sftull » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:59 am

Like many others, I have a need to go through some skinny water. Whether ridding creeks or trying to get into my favorite duck spot, my 40hp outboard isn't always up for the task. The large surface drive engines are great but are very heavy and cost ALOT. The Copperhead engines are great but after talking to Gil, he don't want to get into building surface drives for tall transoms.

So over the past few weeks, I have been working on a design, for a surface drive, that satisfies the following criteria..
Light weight(less than 175lbs),
The ability to handle any engine(Clone, Vanguard, Kohler, etc)
Costs less than 1/2 price of the large surface drives when fully modified.
Fits a tall transom.

Now I know some of you are thinking....Dude, just build a long tail and be done with it. Well I have a long way to travel, with a medium size load and don't want to travel at a snails pace.

The drive shaft and bearing cups are the only thing that will require machining. Everything else can be purchased, cut out with a pattern, then welded or bolted together. The power will come from a 16hp clone motor and after talking to the guys at Affordable Go Karts, that motor can be easily modified to over 30hp and be very reliable. This engine is great b/c its 84lbs and very cheap in price.

The first order of business will be machining the bearing cups. Its going to take a while on my small lathe.

Frame will be made from 3/16" steel
Image

As I make progress, I will post more pics.
Last edited by sftull on Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:59 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby guywithhat » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:15 pm

awesome... ill be following this build....
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby Erich_870 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:27 pm

Looking good! Are you going to have a clutch? What kind of belt are you using?

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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby sftull » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:24 am

I thought about a clutch but all the ones I have looked at already have a pulley on them. I would like to find one w/o a pulley already mounted on it.

The belt is a high torque timing belt, like the ones they run on proCharger type superchargers. I looked at the Tire Track pulley's and belts, like the ones the Top Fuel cars run, but it would cost around $1000 for both pulley's and the belt. With the pulley's costing about $450 each, if I needed to change one, it could get expensive.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby dexterherndon » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:01 pm

Great idea with the build, Every one wants a super light weight motor with tons of speed and power. Copperheads are great but the one down side to mine is it does not have a clutch. I would give dixie mud motors a call and see if he could use the affordable go carts engine on one of his frames. I bet the modded 13hp engine on his 12hp frame with clutch would be one bad a** motor. Or at least thats the idea I have been throwin around. Keep us posted this has caught my interest.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby we bad x 2 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:29 pm

dexterherndon wrote:Great idea with the build, Every one wants a super light weight motor with tons of speed and power. Copperheads are great but the one down side to mine is it does not have a clutch. I would give dixie mud motors a call and see if he could use the affordable go carts engine on one of his frames. I bet the modded 13hp engine on his 12hp frame with clutch would be one bad a** motor. Or at least thats the idea I have been throwin around. Keep us posted this has caught my interest.

i like the clucth idea ,but those dixie's are HEAVYy, i looked into them, what they post on there site for weight is not the actual they real HEAVY compared to a copperhead .i bought a copperhead 18 weight 135lbs bad as-s rig the problem with the clucthes out there they are heavy ,and most don't hold up ,i got real good with running the direct drive unit without the clucth no big deal good luck :thumbsup:
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby guywithhat » Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:50 pm

my homemade setups all are pull start.. i've just got in the habbit of pulling up with my right on the recoil and pushing down with my left on the tiller... start it with the prop outta the water... as for a neutral same thing.. just pick the prop outta the water... not that big a deal... just have to watch were the prop is goin if its out for a bit and its windy.... I don't use the motor pickin up decoys tho... my flocked heads would end up chopped heads... :yes:
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby dexterherndon » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:28 pm

Yeah I agree the 18 like my 12 is beast but really want a clutch for running timber(it makes it safer to run tight trails).
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby we bad x 2 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:38 pm

dexterherndon wrote:Yeah I agree the 18 like my 12 is beast but really want a clutch for running timber(it makes it safer to run tight trails).

just work the chit out of that tiller man :wink:
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby we bad x 2 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:43 pm

sftull, try to stick to a stock set up (motor), i've had mod motors ,there great until they start comming apart, nothing like stock when you out in 15 degrees and it don't break down ,the more you push the limits, less time you get out of them, unless your a gear head and like messing and wrenching them ,good luck
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby we bad x 2 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:45 pm

dexterherndon wrote:Yeah I agree the 18 like my 12 is beast but really want a clutch for running timber(it makes it safer to run tight trails).

what kind of 12 do you have? surface,longtail?
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby dexterherndon » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:54 pm

12hp copperhead surface drive
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby we bad x 2 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:08 pm

dexterherndon wrote:12hp copperhead surface drive

where you out of?
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby dexterherndon » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:35 pm

North Florida close to Tallahassee
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby sftull » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:17 am

Since I don't know much about clutches, I'm going to assume that it takes an electric current to make the clutch lock up. If thats the case, it would run my batter down pretty quick. So as of right now, if I run a clutch, it will be a centrifugal type.

Over the weekend, I did some comparison between 3/16" and 1/8" steel and I believe that 3/16" is going to be too heavy for this little rig. So I have decided to go with the 1/8" which will save weight and cost. I places I run are deep to shallow but all of it is pretty clean (no stumps, rocks, etc)....some mud and almost no vegetation. That being said, the frame won't get alot of abuse. I also stopped by NorthernTool and found (2) 3/4" tapered roller bearings and their races for $16. That's 1/2 the price I had found anywhere else.

sftull, try to stick to a stock set up (motor), i've had mod motors ,there great until they start comming apart, nothing like stock when you out in 15 degrees and it don't break down ,the more you push the limits, less time you get out of them, unless your a gear head and like messing and wrenching them ,good luck


My only reason to mod the motor was to hopefully spin a 11x10 prop. After reading the surface drive build by guywithhat, the prop needs to be spinning in the 3800 ~ 4200 rpm range...if I remember correctly. Unless I run it as a 1:1 gear ratio, which I don't think the motor can handle a 1:1, then the prop will never see those rpm's. I was going to run a 1:1.25 gear ratio, so I need some mods in the motor. Going to start with removing the governor, changing the emulsion tube, main jet, exhaust, valve spring and air filter.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby aeonstar » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:07 pm

ok a couple things here....30hp is a lot of power and if you run a little motor that has that much done it will just explode. Remember that marine applications are constant load. It's not the same as a on and off load that a kart would see.

Run a 1.5/1and maybe even a 2/1 belt reduction to get the prop spinning slower with more pitch. Small motors do not make torque like a big 1000cc vanguard does. If you want a small motor to push as hard as a big one you need to multiply your torque and spin the motor faster. A stock prodrive spins a 1.5/1 reduction

go here for all your parts. they have every thing you need to build anything from a mud motor to a space shuttle.
http://www.mcmaster.com
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby sftull » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:04 pm

Run a 1.5/1and maybe even a 2/1 belt reduction to get the prop spinning slower with more pitch.


I was planning on using a 22 tooth engine pulley and a 32 or 34 drive shaft pulley from http://www.mcmaster.com/#timing-belt-pulleys/=exmgtf If that doesn't work, then I could always go with a 44 tooth on the lower end.

What is everyone's opinion on prop size? After looking at the mudbuddy site, they recommend a 11x10 for a 21hp vanguard.
or
Do you think the 10x8 would be a better fit?

p.s. Ordered a 16hp clone today. No tax and free shipping... :thumbsup:
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby Erich_870 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:35 pm

sftull wrote:
Run a 1.5/1and maybe even a 2/1 belt reduction to get the prop spinning slower with more pitch.


I was planning on using a 22 tooth engine pulley and a 32 or 34 drive shaft pulley from http://www.mcmaster.com/#timing-belt-pulleys/=exmgtf If that doesn't work, then I could always go with a 44 tooth on the lower end.

What is everyone's opinion on prop size? After looking at the mudbuddy site, they recommend a 11x10 for a 21hp vanguard.
or
Do you think the 10x8 would be a better fit?

p.s. Ordered a 16hp clone today. No tax and free shipping... :thumbsup:


McMaster-Carr doesn't do well with links. Which belt/pulley combination are you going with? 30hp is a lot of power so you need to make sure you choose the right pulley tooth profile and belt width to survive.

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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby Griffin4590 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:40 pm

aeonstar wrote:ok a couple things here....30hp is a lot of power and if you run a little motor that has that much done it will just explode. Remember that marine applications are constant load. It's not the same as a on and off load that a kart would see.

Run a 1.5/1and maybe even a 2/1 belt reduction to get the prop spinning slower with more pitch. Small motors do not make torque like a big 1000cc vanguard does. If you want a small motor to push as hard as a big one you need to multiply your torque and spin the motor faster. A stock prodrive spins a 1.5/1 reduction

go here for all your parts. they have every thing you need to build anything from a mud motor to a space shuttle.
http://www.mcmaster.com

solid info here. A mod motor like MB black death series ect is one thing but modding a motor trying to get high RPMs out of it is another. I have raced go carts as a kid and those motors blow up all the time. reliable to them is a few races without issues. not max RPM for hours and hours. Its also not a big deal if they blow a motor where as it could leave you stranded way out there. that extra 2-3mph isn't worth it.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby guywithhat » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:52 pm

iam buildin my 6.5hp engine up for my shorttail... I don't think I am gonna rev it way up there... might just tweak the govna' so it will hit 4000 up from 3600ish... and build it to make more power. I put the filter/adapter/custom header/gx140 emusion tube/ and a #90 main jet... threw the winter I plan on gettin a cam, bump up the compression with a 18cc head, mild port/polish, lap the valves, lighten up the flywheel. make it as effecient as it can be. then drop my gearing down from 1.625 to maybe a 1.4 or lower if it has the snot to move the boat along... hopfully I can build power instead of RPM's....
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby harryhyde » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:09 pm

Here's an idea to try if the 16 hp doesn't work out, and you aren't broke yet. I have been batting this idea around in my mind, then all of a sudden it showed up in Wildfowl magazine several issues back as a boat design winner.

Make a mud motor out of a snowmobile engine. The guy in the article used an Arctic Cat 340cc engine, which probably has close to 40 hp. If you used say a 440 or 500 fan, you would have close to 50 hp, but only use 30 of it so your reliability and gas economy doesn't suffer.

I am just dying for a tree to fall on the back end of my Ski-Doo Touring 500, because I already have a large chainbox/ drive tube and prop that can be used with the motor. I am pretty sure I could put it together for less than 150 lbs, and have 48 HP.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby we bad x 2 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:07 pm

harryhyde wrote:Here's an idea to try if the 16 hp doesn't work out, and you aren't broke yet. I have been batting this idea around in my mind, then all of a sudden it showed up in Wildfowl magazine several issues back as a boat design winner.

Make a mud motor out of a snowmobile engine. The guy in the article used an Arctic Cat 340cc engine, which probably has close to 40 hp. If you used say a 440 or 500 fan, you would have close to 50 hp, but only use 30 of it so your reliability and gas economy doesn't suffer.

I am just dying for a tree to fall on the back end of my Ski-Doo Touring 500, because I already have a large chainbox/ drive tube and prop that can be used with the motor. I am pretty sure I could put it together for less than 150 lbs, and have 48 HP.


that rig was bad ass and he did the whole project for 1000.00 or so would like to see a video on that
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby sftull » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:52 pm

I agree that 30hp is alot out of that little motor and would agree that it wouldn't last long turning 7k rpm's. I am planning on staying in 4-5k rpm range and I don't see any reason why the engine can't handle that. I will start out with the stock engine and mod it as needed. I am not looking for alot of speed..... I have a 40hp outboard for that. This will be a light weight, reliable and cheap to build surface drive that can get me into the skinny water.

I have looked into the the snowmobile setup, but I don't have alot of access to snowmobile parts here in SC, so I'm going to stick with a clone.

McMaster-Carr doesn't do well with links. Which belt/pulley combination are you going with? 30hp is a lot of power so you need to make sure you choose the right pulley tooth profile and belt width to survive.


8 mm pitch pulley x 30mm wide. The pulley on the top will be a 22 tooth and the bottom will vary. Will that work?
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby dexterherndon » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:14 pm

Sftull did you talk to the folks at affordable go carts about the engine, It says on the site they can build a engine for you, I was wondering if they could match the 13 to your needs meaning for mud motor instead of 7000rpms. Wondering if they could put a rev limiter and build the motor more for muscle instead of speed. My other question is why didnt you opt to go with the 23hp vanguard. It is 3 year warrenty with 23hp and weighs 77pounds instead of the 13hp clone weighing 86 pounds? The 23 also has lots of mods that can make it an empressive motor that is mud motor tested. I like the 13 but the 23 sounds like it would get better results.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby Erich_870 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:19 pm

sftull wrote:
McMaster-Carr doesn't do well with links. Which belt/pulley combination are you going with? 30hp is a lot of power so you need to make sure you choose the right pulley tooth profile and belt width to survive.


8 mm pitch pulley x 30mm wide. The pulley on the top will be a 22 tooth and the bottom will vary. Will that work?


There's a detailed design process but you'll be right at the upper limits of the 8mm belt. You may need to go to the 14mm but it will take some more numbers to figure that out.

Send me a pm if you want me to run the numbers. I'll go over the rest of the info I'd need.

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