Surface Drive Build **Update 10/20**

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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby sftull » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:47 pm

Sftull did you talk to the folks at affordable go carts about the engine, It says on the site they can build a engine for you, I was wondering if they could match the 13 to your needs meaning for mud motor instead of 7000rpms. Wondering if they could put a rev limiter and build the motor more for muscle instead of speed. My other question is why didnt you opt to go with the 23hp vanguard. It is 3 year warrenty with 23hp and weighs 77pounds instead of the 13hp clone weighing 86 pounds? The 23 also has lots of mods that can make it an empressive motor that is mud motor tested. I like the 13 but the 23 sounds like it would get better results.


I did talk to them, but I grew up drag racing so I am pretty confident I can put the parts together. I was also thinking about building it for torque rather than hp. The reason I didn't go with the vanguard is b/c I got a new 16hp clone for $289 with no tax and free shipping. The vanguard will be $700 more....i can build the rest of the surface drive for that.

There's a detailed design process but you'll be right at the upper limits of the 8mm belt. You may need to go to the 14mm but it will take some more numbers to figure that out.


I didn't see a 14mm pitch option on mcmastercarr.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby dexterherndon » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:11 pm

300 is a great deal for a engine. Hek the best deal i found a 23 is 1400 so yeah u got a good deal. Havin knowledge of these would def help lol I dont have that kind of background. Congrads on the build hope it goes well, keep us posted. Cant wait to see some of these high hp light weight rigs on the market.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby harryhyde » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:57 am

sftull wrote:I agree that 30hp is alot out of that little motor and would agree that it wouldn't last long turning 7k rpm's. I am planning on staying in 4-5k rpm range and I don't see any reason why the engine can't handle that. I will start out with the stock engine and mod it as needed. I am not looking for alot of speed..... I have a 40hp outboard for that. This will be a light weight, reliable and cheap to build surface drive that can get me into the skinny water.

I have looked into the the snowmobile setup, but I don't have alot of access to snowmobile parts here in SC, so I'm going to stick with a clone.

McMaster-Carr doesn't do well with links. Which belt/pulley combination are you going with? 30hp is a lot of power so you need to make sure you choose the right pulley tooth profile and belt width to survive.


8 mm pitch pulley x 30mm wide. The pulley on the top will be a 22 tooth and the bottom will vary. Will that work?


Great stuff sftull. I am really interested in what you end up with for belts, I may go that route next build. So far I have only used chain. What type of tensioning device is needed?
I'm sure you have thought of this, but that modded 16 hp block will probably not produce a full 30 hp at 5000 RPM. Probably around 22 or something. You will want to prop accordingly. Of course like aeonstar said you can gear it down more and gain torque, at the cost of prop speed.
Have you thought about aluminum for your box and drive tube? It would save weight. Maybe your welding equipment is the limiting factor?
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby Griffin4590 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:59 pm

dexterherndon wrote: My other question is why didnt you opt to go with the 23hp vanguard. It is 3 year warrenty with 23hp and weighs 77pounds instead of the 13hp clone weighing 86 pounds? The 23 also has lots of mods that can make it an empressive motor that is mud motor tested. I like the 13 but the 23 sounds like it would get better results.

I wondered the same thing. only thing i can think of is the price difference
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby sftull » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:32 pm

Great stuff sftull. I am really interested in what you end up with for belts, I may go that route next build. So far I have only used chain. What type of tensioning device is needed?
I'm sure you have thought of this, but that modded 16 hp block will probably not produce a full 30 hp at 5000 RPM. Probably around 22 or something. You will want to prop accordingly. Of course like aeonstar said you can gear it down more and gain torque, at the cost of prop speed.
Have you thought about aluminum for your box and drive tube? It would save weight. Maybe your welding equipment is the limiting factor?


The belt tensioner is still up in the air. I'm not sure it its going to be spring loaded or a manual tension application. I am not going to try for 30hp right off the bat. That would cost another 1100 to 1300 for the parts. I'll try for solid mid 20's and see where I get. I'll prob gear it for a 1.5:1 right now.

I would LOVE to build it from aluminum but I can't weld aluminum and don't really want to pay someone to do it when I can weld steel. I have a friend with a tig that will weld aluminum, but he's not real good at it and I can weld steel pretty well. My welder is flux core, so the weld isn't real pretty but its strong.

I wondered the same thing. only thing i can think of is the price difference


Yes, the price difference was the deciding factor. $289 for the clone vs $1400 for the vanguard. I would love to have a big vanguard but Briggs is very proud of them, which they should be.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby flightstopper » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:02 pm

Where did you find the clone motor?
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby sftull » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:32 pm

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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby sftull » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:31 am

I ordered the motor Monday afternoon and it arrived just a few mins ago. That was FAST for free shipping.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby Griffin4590 » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:11 am

better get to building. you should be out there killin ducks right about now
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby sftull » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:32 am

I have only been able to hunt ducks once, opening morning, and we shot 11. I am trying to have this build done before next season.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby sftull » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:48 am

My transom mount came in. It needs to be cleaned up and repainted but its very mechanically sound.
Image
Image

I will be making some aluminum bushings that will go in the hole you see in the picture above. These will allow a 5/8" bolt, to pass through them, thus allowing me to connect the transom mount to the belt housing. One thing I have been racking my brain with is how to add trim to this mount. Most others have a threaded rod that allows for this, but since this mount sits all the way down on the transom, I can't put the usual threaded rod trim on it. I has the 4 normal set tilt points that can be adjusted by moving the little rod up and down...like a normal outboard.

Trim might not be an issue with a motor this small but I know it helps on the larger surface drives. If anyone has any ideas on how to add a few degrees +/- of trim to this thing, I would be very appreciative.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby bighop » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:05 pm

You could thread the inside of the aluminum bushing in the mount and use allthread and a jam nut to adjust height, but the the bushing will have to spin in the mount instead of the bolt in the bushing. Or a set of spacers on top of your bushing to hold the motor up, and experiment until you find one that works.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby XhailGC » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:22 pm

sftull, PM sent.

I am close to you and my cousin and I are both planning on building 14HP surface drives. He is certified in welding aluminum. Maybe the three of us can get together and knock out 3 at once.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby aeonstar » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:59 pm

Ok so what hp outboard did that come off of. You might be fine with 12hp or so. lets say you get your motor to 20hp, it will break. The forces generated by a surface drive are not like a outboard......
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby gupsy2083 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:22 am

I am not saying it wont break, but I doubt it they are factored and engineered for 5 times the amount of the working load, you'll be fine... my 2 cents...
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby sftull » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:34 am

It is from a 35hp outboard. I bought it based on the amount of weight it needs to hold. I am not an engineer but an outboard mount and one made from scratch work the same way. If I use it 2 years or 2 minutes and it breaks, then I'll make a transom from scratch.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby sftull » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:26 am

Over the weekend, I had some time to myself, so I decided to do some machining. I machined the aluminum plugs that go in the transom mount as well as started on one of the bearing housings. On the bearing housing, I started with a 3" diameter x 4" long aluminum slug.....my little bench top lathe struggled to say the least. Once the parts are done, I will snap some pics.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby Indawoods » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:31 pm

for what it's worth, mig welding aluminum is not any harder than flux core welding steel. aluminum will blow out quicker than steel, but getting your heat right solves it.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby guywithhat » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:26 am

Indawoods wrote:for what it's worth, mig welding aluminum is not any harder than flux core welding steel. aluminum will blow out quicker than steel, but getting your heat right solves it.


I find flux core welding steel easy .. maybe I should ask my doctor about Aluminum and if its right for me...... if I built my setup with the same thickness aluminum as it is steel now... would it be as strong? Iam assuming it would be lighter... and my access cover has nuts welded on the inside, Iam assuming you don't weld steel to aluminum.... I don't know much about it.. just how to do it.... :huh:
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby sftull » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:09 am

for what it's worth, mig welding aluminum is not any harder than flux core welding steel. aluminum will blow out quicker than steel, but getting your heat right solves it.


I have tried to weld aluminum with my flux core welder (using wire for aluminum) and with a regular welder (using a aluminum spool gun) and I get the same results...Swiss aluminum(cousin to Swiss cheese :no: ) Like you said..its all about the heat.

I find flux core welding steel easy .. maybe I should ask my doctor about Aluminum and if its right for me...... if I built my setup with the same thickness aluminum as it is steel now... would it be as strong? Iam assuming it would be lighter... and my access cover has nuts welded on the inside, Iam assuming you don't weld steel to aluminum.... I don't know much about it.. just how to do it.... :huh:


I think you would need to use thicker aluminum for the build. IMO, 1/8" aluminum is pretty thin for something like this. The thinnest aluminum I am using on this build is 1/4" and the thickest is 3/4". You can't weld steel to aluminum to my knowledge, so you would need to either tap the aluminum or weld aluminum nuts to the back side.

Image
Here is a pic of the aluminum bushings that hold the 5/8" bolt. There is another one on the bottom side and there will be rod ends at the top and bottom of the mount, which will hold the belt housing.
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby HR2labs » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:07 pm

No you cannt weld steel to aluminum but you have to protect the two diferent metals they reacte to each other over time they will start to corroide take alook at the old aluminum trailers that have steel bolts there is a white flaking powder apperance that the " rusting ' part .
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Surface Drive Build

Postby flightstopper » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:20 am

The key to welding aluminum is keeping contamination out of the weld, clean the chit out of it. A welding shop can hook you up with what you need there. Also make sure you don't try to use the same shielding gas as you would welding steel, will not work...
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby sftull » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:03 am

So over the weekend, I got out some of the scrap metal from the scrap yard and started machining some parts. Once I get everything machined, I'll take it all to a welder and have it all welded together.
Image

These parts were made to fit the drive shaft tube that I found.
Image

A tapered roller bearing and lock collar do inside this part of the flange. Here you can see the race for the bearing...it will be pressed into the flange.
Image

The little 7x10 lathe had its hands full trying to machine these parts but it got the job done. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I still have to machine the bearing housing for the prop end and then most of the machining will be done.
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Surface Drive Build

Postby flightstopper » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:08 am

Looks great
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Re: Surface Drive Build

Postby harryhyde » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:35 pm

flightstopper wrote:The key to welding aluminum is keeping contamination out of the weld, clean the chit out of it. A welding shop can hook you up with what you need there. Also make sure you don't try to use the same shielding gas as you would welding steel, will not work...


If you use argon it will work on steel and aluminum. I will take your word for it on the other gases, as I have not used them.
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