Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

A forum to discuss taxidermy techniques and mounts.

Moderators: Pete-pec, sprigpig1

Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby The Waterfowler » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:09 pm

I found this article quite fascinating and very believable. Hope someone takes the lead to do some DNA testing. Just the idea of them still existing is exciting. Remember several bird hybrids were thought to be a new species, like the Brewer's duck, etc. I would think Eric, aka AAR would find this interesting as well. One can always dream!!

Good read.

http://www.macroevolution.net/labrador- ... wfTTqogGc3
Helping waterfowl make bad decisions since 1961.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
User avatar
The Waterfowler
hunter
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:30 pm
Location: Mississippi


Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby Pete-pec » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:14 pm

I think it is very believable. Look at the mallard complex for example. There is so much hybridization amongst mottled, and blacks (including Hawaiian and Mexican), that it would be diffucult to argue at what duck came first and then what strains came from that one duck.

Look at a Baikal teal and the green-winged blue-winged hybrid and how similar they are. Or the fact that the gadwall is related to so many species, that nothing would surprise me. Pat, you yourself must have had some hybridization in your aviary that must have resembled some birds that didn't look like their parents, but perhaps looked like another common duck all together?
User avatar
Pete-pec
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 3138
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:39 am
Location: Southern Wisconsin

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby beretta24 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:18 pm

Thanks for sharing Pat, interesting indeed.
User avatar
beretta24
State Moderator
 
Posts: 5924
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:54 pm
Location: MN

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby duxrus » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:50 pm

Very possible and makes perfect sense
duxrus
hunter
 
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:01 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby sprigpig1 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:59 pm

Very intriguing ... Could you imagine? You would think the cornell lab of ornithology would be all over this doing DNA tests.. Maybe they are already? Regardless, cool article. I enjoyed reading it. Thanks for sharing Pat.
"suppose you were an idiot; and suppose you were a member of congress, But I repeat myself".- Mark Twain

"Go to heaven for the climate , go to hell for the company".- Mark Twain
User avatar
sprigpig1
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 1460
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:16 pm
Location: Reno,NV

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby The Waterfowler » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:57 pm

[. Pat, you yourself must have had some hybridization in your aviary that must have resembled some birds that didn't look like their parents, but perhaps looked like another common duck all together?[/quote]


Yes Pete, I've still got one hybrid I raised that I don't know what it is for sure.
Helping waterfowl make bad decisions since 1961.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
User avatar
The Waterfowler
hunter
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:30 pm
Location: Mississippi

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby beretta24 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:46 am

The Waterfowler wrote:[. Pat, you yourself must have had some hybridization in your aviary that must have resembled some birds that didn't look like their parents, but perhaps looked like another common duck all together?



Yes Pete, I've still got one hybrid I raised that I don't know what it is for sure.[/quote]
Pics?
User avatar
beretta24
State Moderator
 
Posts: 5924
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:54 pm
Location: MN

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby The Waterfowler » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:47 pm

Hang on, will get one.
Helping waterfowl make bad decisions since 1961.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
User avatar
The Waterfowler
hunter
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:30 pm
Location: Mississippi

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby hillbilly.. » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:54 am

Interesting read... the thing that sticks out to me the most is the head on the Labrador doesnt resemble either of the 2 theyre claiming it to be mixd with Granteed ive never held either of the 2 in my hands. Also the charariatis characteristics of the beak dont either. Its head seems to resembly most divers minus the canvasback. These are my thoughts on it atlest.
hillbilly..
hunter
 
Posts: 1340
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:27 pm
Location: gaylord mn

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby The Waterfowler » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:26 am

To paraphrase a famous movie line, "Hybrids are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you'll get." Once genetic recombination occurs it can produce some oddities. I'd like to believe that there is a Holy Grail still in existence.

Figure this one. I know what it's not, but don't know for sure what it is and I raised it.

Image
Helping waterfowl make bad decisions since 1961.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
User avatar
The Waterfowler
hunter
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:30 pm
Location: Mississippi

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby hillbilly.. » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:06 am

Im gona say gwt pintail off top of my head
hillbilly..
hunter
 
Posts: 1340
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:27 pm
Location: gaylord mn

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby Pete-pec » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:19 am

The problem with hybrids is the fact that sometimes the teal family make nothing like their parents. The BWT and GWT look like (or resemble) a Baikal teal. Then take the gadwall which genetically speaking is related to several teal species, and because of that, when you start crossing certain species, you get birds that start to look like some of their old genetically related cousins.

The Labrador duck is an example of an idea that isn't too far fetched, even if it is only speculation. I believe we probably have many populations of birds that long ago were once parented from two different species, and then formed their own wild population.

Because the gadwall influences so many traits in birds, and doesn't really look gadwall, your bird could be anything. Is there a chance that this particular bird could be a hybrid's hybrid? In other words a hybrid that bred to a third party that wasn't part of the original (two-party) strain?

It has many characteristics that could be a few ducks in my opinion. Wing looks GWT or pintail (I don't know the size of the bird). The head and throat patch again could be pintail (throat) and GWT (green stripe). The tertials look longer than usual, and resemble falcated, but probably not? I guess pintail GWT or possible hybridized version of that, if there was a possible third party involved....but if you don't know, I CERTAINLY don't know.
User avatar
Pete-pec
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 3138
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:39 am
Location: Southern Wisconsin

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby The Waterfowler » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:28 am

There wasn't a Pintail in the pen. Just Falcateds, Greenwings, Bluewings, Cinnamons, Eurasian Wigeon and American Wigeon. Bill doesn't indicate a Wigeon so the mix is from the other 4 I believe, but strong feather groups aren't there to sway me one way or another. I'm guessing Falcated something. Again the genetic mix can be fickle at times to produce odd combinations. Mallard/Pintails and Mallard/Gadwalls are pretty much universal and even Mallard/Wigeon but when you mess with Mother Nature you can get a curve thrown at you.
Helping waterfowl make bad decisions since 1961.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
User avatar
The Waterfowler
hunter
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:30 pm
Location: Mississippi

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby Pete-pec » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:43 am

Perfect. My original guess was going to be falcated something, but didn't expect you to have any. So doesn't wing resemble GWT enough to think falcated GWT then? I know, I know, you weren't witness to the copulation.
User avatar
Pete-pec
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 3138
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:39 am
Location: Southern Wisconsin

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby The Waterfowler » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:01 pm

Could be, but only the drake and hen know for sure!
Helping waterfowl make bad decisions since 1961.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
User avatar
The Waterfowler
hunter
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:30 pm
Location: Mississippi

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby Pete-pec » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:09 pm

The Waterfowler wrote:Could be, but only the drake and hen know for sure!



:devil:
User avatar
Pete-pec
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 3138
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:39 am
Location: Southern Wisconsin

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby sprigpig1 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:58 pm

That's awesome! Falcated X GWT?
Look at the scaps on that thing! Cool bird Pat.
"suppose you were an idiot; and suppose you were a member of congress, But I repeat myself".- Mark Twain

"Go to heaven for the climate , go to hell for the company".- Mark Twain
User avatar
sprigpig1
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 1460
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:16 pm
Location: Reno,NV

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby beretta24 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:20 pm

Dang, I was thinking there was some gaddy in him. Neat nonetheless.
User avatar
beretta24
State Moderator
 
Posts: 5924
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:54 pm
Location: MN

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby hillbilly.. » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:53 pm

The Waterfowler wrote:Could be, but only the drake and hen know for sure!



Could have been dark so maybe they dont even know lol.

Has any body ever takin a brewers duck and bred it with another brewers duck.to see what the out come was. Or do some actually belive that hybrids are steril. When they were veiwing the labrador is there any word on the population numbers of the steller and common in those books.
hillbilly..
hunter
 
Posts: 1340
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:27 pm
Location: gaylord mn

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby The Waterfowler » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:15 pm

Haven't seen that but the Brewer's Duck isn't a sterile hybrid so it could be done and your guess is as good as mine what the offspring would look like. You're breeding a F! to an F1 that is a 50/50 Hybrid they could all come out Gadwalls or Mallards or Brewer's Ducks which follows the laws of genetic recombination. You could have 33 1/3% Mallards, 33 1/3% Brewer's Ducks, and 33 1/3% Gadwalls in each clutch depending on the gene match. Each parent would pass along either a species gene for Mallard or gene for Gadwall.

Eider populations are enormous although the YK population in Alaska of Steller's has taken a hit the Russian population is huge and Common Eiders are circumpolar as are Kings.
Helping waterfowl make bad decisions since 1961.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
User avatar
The Waterfowler
hunter
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:30 pm
Location: Mississippi

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby duxrus » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:41 pm

Speaking about all the cool Artic ducks, Pat, have you ever killed a smew ? I tried buying one from a breeder the other day but apparently was a few minutes too late and someone beat me to it :fingerhead:

While we are talking about hybrids, what about my Ross goose question ? Many people on another cite said they have seen female blue geese that were extremely small like the one I have and believe they are true blue geese. Could a Ross/Blue goose hybrid just turn out to look like a very small blue if say the father was a ross where most of the maternal characteristics would show ?
duxrus
hunter
 
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:01 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby Pete-pec » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:48 pm

Let it go Brian! It's a blue ross! Just busting your chops buddy. Like I said, buy a ross head, and you have a ross. Just pull it out two years from now, call it a blue phase ross, and no one will know the difference. ....except me! I never forget lol
User avatar
Pete-pec
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 3138
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:39 am
Location: Southern Wisconsin

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby duxrus » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:13 pm

Pat has spoken so it is a hybrid . It now belongs to me and going on my wall :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: That thing is already turning into jerky so it will be hitting the workbench soon

I slept thru genetics so I have to ask questions :grooving: I just was wondering if that could cause a different variation in visible characteristics ? Does maternal and paternal differences matter from what is seen in the hybrid young ?
duxrus
hunter
 
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:01 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby hillbilly.. » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:46 pm

He has a smew in his collection i saved his picture on my phone because i thought it was a cool looking bird and i was looking a breeders and 400 is what i seen them going for.
hillbilly..
hunter
 
Posts: 1340
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:27 pm
Location: gaylord mn

Re: Labrador Duck, Worth the Read!

Postby The Waterfowler » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:04 pm

Actually I have three Smews.

Brian, I have often thought the Blue Phase in Ross' Geese was a sex-linked trait as all the one's I've seen were females. Maybe, maybe not. Have identified quite a few hybrids, both White Phase and Blue Phase also. But the Blue Ross' all have the characteristic blue stripe running up through the dorsal part of the head to the crown, never a full white sock down far on the neck, the blue being almost black looking and the white almost silver looking upper wing coverts. The Blue Ross we killed at my club this year was no different. I told the guys when the dog was still a hundred yards out that it was a Blue Ross' and they didn't believe me till it got to the pit. We were contacted by a grad student in Idaho that is doing his Masters or PhD study on the Blue Ross' and begged for the carcass to do DNA testing. As soon as I skin it I will head it his way along with some White ones we killed the same day to do some testing. It's hard to get away from noticing the hooked upper mandible on hybrids as it seems pronounced. The black cutting edge may be there but the full grin patch shouldn't be in a Blue Phase.
Helping waterfowl make bad decisions since 1961.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
User avatar
The Waterfowler
hunter
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:30 pm
Location: Mississippi

Next

Return to Taxidermy Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron