condor season

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condor season

Postby webtoe » Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:27 pm

no more lead bullets allowed for big game in my area of california because of a bird that should have been extinct years ago. I am sure there will be a shortage on barns x bullets for next season .
I hope this BS doesnt spread to other states. :mad:
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Postby manitobawoj » Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:57 pm

You have got to be kidding, that's a load of crap. What next?
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Postby Greg Wile » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:33 am

This is what we all will be facing at some point in time along with the ban on lead sinkers and jig heads for fishing.
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Re: condor season

Postby Dano135 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:58 pm

Lead is poisionous, get over it.
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Re: condor season

Postby dakotashooter2 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:07 am

Sadly lead is just a minor player in condor deaths. The biggest problem is they are terrible parent that don't have the ability to properly care for their young . This leads to poor recruitment to replace those that die off. FWIW not only have they found lead in dead birds but bottle caps, cigarette butts, rocks and all other kinds of junk birds should not be eating. They can't even prove that the lead came from bullets or game scavanged by the birds that were shot with lead bullets. It could be naturally occuring or roadside debris. And just wait. Most non lead bullets mushroom like the once hated black tallon bullets. They will then claim the birds are dying because the jagged edges of the expanded bullets are "tearing" the birds throats or stomach.
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Re: condor season

Postby duckman27 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:36 pm

Dano135 wrote:Lead is poisionous, get over it.


Do I feel someone getting a little butthurt? :huh:
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Re: condor season

Postby duckman27 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:41 pm

With just minutes of thought on this subject I have come up with a 4 step plan on how to solve this problem

1) Kill off all condors since their population continues to decline and they're nothing more than a glorified vulture
2) Restock the area with normal vultures that are proven to be more hearty than a condor
3) Everything that a condor could do and then some will be achieved by the new vultures
4) Call it evolution and the world moves on

With this plan the condor issue is solved, lead is able to be used again, and a better substitute for the condor has been introduced. Genius right? :biggrin:
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Re: condor season

Postby Huntfish12 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:53 am

duckman27 wrote:With just minutes of thought on this subject I have come up with a 4 step plan on how to solve this problem

1) Kill off all condors since their population continues to decline and they're nothing more than a glorified vulture
2) Restock the area with normal vultures that are proven to be more hearty than a condor
3) Everything that a condor could do and then some will be achieved by the new vultures
4) Call it evolution and the world moves on

With this plan the condor issue is solved, lead is able to be used again, and a better substitute for the condor has been introduced. Genius right? :biggrin:


:thumbsup: I like this!
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Re: condor season

Postby dakotashooter2 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:12 pm

One should note that If hunting was closed in the condor areas they would likely starve off in 10 years and this nonsense would be done.
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Re: condor season

Postby phutch30 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:19 pm

Wow! you guys are great. Because of a little inconvenience you want an iconic species that’s in dire straits (because of us) to be eliminated. Condors arent almost extinct due to natural causes, we caused it. As a biologist, I find your attitudes very refreshing. What a wonderful attitude to have for a group of ‘sportsman i.e. wildlife enthusiasts.

Are lead bullets the only reason condor recovery is slow NO, is it a significant factor? 100% yes. Lead poisoning is the leading cause of death in adult condors. BOO HOO you can’t use lead bullets that also poison several other species. I wouldn’t blink an eye if all lead was banned for fishing/hunting. There are plenty of substitutes that work fine and don’t poison wildlife. It actually takes very little lead to put a raptor, condor or waterfowl out of commission. Hunters love to thump their chests and say what great conservationists we are, So what gives?
....its like taking x-lax when you have a bad cough. It wont clear up your lungs, but it sure stops you from coughing
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Re: condor season

Postby GGC » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:49 pm

I'm with Phutch on this one. These birds are in trouble because of us... I don't get how a bunch of supposed "conservationists" which is how we hunters always like to portray ourselves (and personally I think that is true about most hunters) can be so out of touch with this issue. Lead is a problem for Condors, shooting non-lead is not a big deal. I have lived and hunted in the Condor area for my entire life, and have shot Barnes bullets the entire time. They work... no question... so why is this viewed as a problem by some hunters?

I did a test with a hunting buddy a number of years ago (prior to the lead ban). We got on a herd of pigs, waited until two were standing side by side at the same distance of 180 yards from us and did a 1.2.3. shoot. We then counted the distance each lung shot pig went after the shots. He was shooting a .300 Wby Mag with 180gr Nosler Partitions and I was shooting a .300 Wby Mag with 180 gr. Barnes X. His pig went 18 feet, mine went 18 feet. That same friend of mine and I went to Zimbabwe this past August on a plains game hunt. My buddy likes Berger bullets, I'm still a Barnes guy, it's all I shoot. When the PH saw my buddies loads he asked him not to use them, too many wounding shots with Bergers over the years. His comment was that as a PH for the past 18 years he has seen thousands of animals shot with dozens of different bullets and he will not shoot anything but Barnes and does his best of insist his plains game hunters do the same.

Anyhow my point is that the alternatives to lead are out there and they work well. Why not do whatever we can to save this, the largest bird in North America. This incredible animal has been here since the Late Pleistocene, much, much longer then we have!
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Re: condor season

Postby duckman27 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:02 am

It'd be way more cost effective though just to let them die out or whatever happens. Millions of dollars will be poured into helping a dying species that will more than likely never recover. If there is noticible progress being made, then continue with the conservation efforts. If no progress is being made and the population is still declining nomatter what is being done, then let nature run it's course. A good example of this is the Whooping Crane. Their populations are steadily increasing from extremely low numbers which contitutes funding towards their conservation. A bad example is your beloved condor. It's numbers keep decreasing while the money being put into them keeps increasing. Doesn't make much sense to me :fingerhead:
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Re: condor season

Postby RustyGunz1960 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:10 am

I used to defend hunters and hunting with far more conviction in the days before the internet, when I was only exposed to my own merry band. I‘m sad to say I can’t do that now. I can only hope few non-hunters read forums such as this. God help the future of our sport if they do.
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Re: condor season

Postby duckman27 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:16 am

RustyGunz1960 wrote:I used to defend hunters and hunting with far more conviction in the days before the internet, when I was only exposed to my own merry band. I‘m sad to say I can’t do that now. I can only hope few non-hunters read forums such as this. God help the future of our sport if they do.


Maybe it's just the way that my professors have been teaching me but from everything I've heard so far from them is that you're conservation efforts need to be practical. In some cases, such as the condor, the inevitable is only being prolonged. There are no real signs of improvement with the species so is their any real point in dumping money into them. The are many other species that could better use the funding. This was taught in Freshman Ecology/Conservation so it seems like a fairly simple concept
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Re: condor season

Postby RustyGunz1960 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:57 am

duckman27 wrote:
RustyGunz1960 wrote:I used to defend hunters and hunting with far more conviction in the days before the internet, when I was only exposed to my own merry band. I‘m sad to say I can’t do that now. I can only hope few non-hunters read forums such as this. God help the future of our sport if they do.


Maybe it's just the way that my professors have been teaching me but from everything I've heard so far from them is that you're conservation efforts need to be practical. In some cases, such as the condor, the inevitable is only being prolonged. There are no real signs of improvement with the species so is their any real point in dumping money into them. The are many other species that could better use the funding. This was taught in Freshman Ecology/Conservation so it seems like a fairly simple concept


Having a degree in Natural Resource Management myself, followed by 29 years working in the field, I don’t base any of my stances on what any one professor or person stated to me. Too often in those cases you are dealing with opinions rather than facts. And I do not disagree that sometimes a cause is a hopeless one. But this thread is not about the millions of dollars “wasted” on restoration efforts. It is about, or at least started on, the subject of having to use existing alternate ammunition to alleviate one of the factors affecting the situation. I’ve had to use non-toxic shot for waterfowl for almost as long as I’ve hunted. The world or our sport didn’t come to an end. We survived lead being removed from our gasoline and our paint as well. And considering bag limits, I can only assume that the average waterfowler expends a great deal more ammo than big game hunters do, so I can’t see expense being a great issue. But in the end, I’m not as against your willingness to debate the course of action regarding the condor as I am disgusted by others who simply don’t give a crap about anything else in the outdoors other than their own immediate interests.
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Re: condor season

Postby GGC » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:03 pm

Duckman27

I'm not sure where you are getting your data, but I don't think it is an accepted fact the the California Condor is doomed to extinction or that the recovery efforts are not working.

This is real data:

•1950s: 150+ birds (California Department of Fish and Game)
•1968: 50-60 birds
•1978: 25-35 birds
•1985: 9 birds after extremely harsh winter and death of 6 birds
•Last bird removed from the wild 4/19/87

Since 1987, 169 condors have been reintroduced into the wild. In 2010, there were 384 living birds, with 181 living in the wild. The birds are successfully reproducing and hatching eggs in California and Northern Baja. There is also now a substantial population in Arizona (close to 100 birds).

It sounds like you might be listening to the wrong professors. My professors were hunters and conservationists. I studied with the best of them, receiving a graduate degree in Large Mammal Biology/Wildlife Mgmt and this is a real success story in wildife recovery.
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Re: condor season

Postby phutch30 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:42 pm

I just read a study that stated 67% of adult condor and 26% of juvi deaths are attributed to lead poisoning. Thats a BIG percentage.

We are winning slowly

"Since 1982 when the remaining 22 wild birds were captured in a last-ditch effort to save the species. Of the 390 condors that exist today, 210 are in the wild, with 118 in California, 73 in Arizona and 19 in Mexico."
Last edited by phutch30 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
....its like taking x-lax when you have a bad cough. It wont clear up your lungs, but it sure stops you from coughing
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Re: condor season

Postby duckman27 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:42 pm

Seeing that data it makes alot more sense to keep up the conservation efforts. The professor that taught that class is somewhat of an idiot and thats just the example he used :lol3: I admit that I was wrong :sad:
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Re: condor season

Postby RustyGunz1960 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:50 pm

duckman27 wrote:Seeing that data it makes alot more sense to keep up the conservation efforts. The professor that taught that class is somewhat of an idiot and thats just the example he used :lol3: I admit that I was wrong :sad:


No biggie. I'm wrong all the time. Just ask my wife. What is a biggie is anyone admitting it. That's rare, especially online. :smile:
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Re: condor season

Postby duckman27 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:58 pm

I like being proved wrong on stuff like this :lol3: I just learned something new today so I can't complain
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Re: condor season

Postby GGC » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:25 pm

Duckman27,

I am impressed, you are a rare man. Wish there were more like you!!!
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Re: condor season

Postby aunt betty » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:00 pm

One should probably read the book titled "Silent Spring" before you pass judgement.

Lots of things killed off the Condors including power-line designs that were 'perfect Condor killing machines'.
DDT probably did as much or more damage that the power lines.

I'm not a tree-hugger and I disagree with the lead ban since that really only affects waterfowl in general. Loons specifically.

The whole lead-ban is loony if you ask me.

Vent away. I feel your pain.

After further reading I'd like to also admit I was wrong. I would support this ban to save a species. Suppose for one minute that there were only 161 HUMANS left. How much would we spend to save THAT species? HUH?
Last edited by aunt betty on Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: condor season

Postby GGC » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:09 pm

Have read Silent Spring... good book, good lessons to be learned.

Lead bullets were not the cause of the Condor's decline but contributed some small part. What is clear is that they hamper the recovery effort when there are so few of them in the wild now.
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Re: condor season

Postby Gen. Lee » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:50 am

I have no doubt that lead poisoning will kill these birds, but what I am wondering is how do biologists determine that the source of the lead is bullets? Does "lead poisoning" refer to the levels of lead found in the blood of these birds? If so, surely there are a great many other sources of lead, both natural and man-made...

Is the conviction that lead bullet fragments (presumably found in the craw) put the lethal levels of poison into these birds more than just intuition or "common sense"? To be clear, how has it been scientifically confirmed that lead bullet fragments are the culprit, so to speak...?

One reason for my question is that condor populations are rebounding in states where lead bullets are still legal, are they not?
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Re: condor season

Postby phutch30 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:25 am

When they find dead condors they perform full range autopsies. The bullets or fragments tend to stay in the crop or gut rather than passing through. We get owls, eagles, hawks swans etc. every year with lead poisoning. It takes a really small dose to incapacitate a bird. Spring is rough on raptors here. Everyone is out shooting ground squirrels and many of those dead squirrels lying around get picked up by birds. The actual lead fragment the bird picks up may not kill it out right, but it makes them so sick that they end up on the ground exposed to the elements, which finish them off.

GGC-actually lead bullets were a significant cause for condor extirpation. Only they didnt ingest them. They got shot. But the main factor was poison.
Last edited by phutch30 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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