hell......you better believe it.

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hell......you better believe it.

Postby pappy » Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:25 pm

about a year ago i met a gentleman named don piper. he is author of a best selling book "90 minutes in heavan". we emailed him and he came to speak in a small country church in south carolina. he wasn't about money,instead he was about God. i saw him today on the today show on nbc. Don was killed in a car accident in texas and spent 90 minutes in heavan. his description was breathtaking.

there are those who are not as fortunate don piper...... a friend of mine was visiting a sick relative in the hospital when here heard terrible sceams from an elderly lady across the hall. he went to see if he could be of help to her. she was writhing in agony sceaming my feet are on fire!!!! ...my feet are on fire!!!! in less than 5 minutes she was dead. she left a testimony for those gathered around her. in her last fleeting breaths she was slipping away into eternity in hell.

listen folks....... the plan of salvation is simple.....if you believe in your heart and confess with mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord ye shall be saved.


good huntin.. :thumbsup:

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Postby 870 » Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:37 pm

thanks pap :thumbsup:
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Postby ducks1411 » Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:23 pm

How dare you. Seriously, how DARE you! I will admit right off of the bat that I am not a religious person. However, I competely respect those that choose to follow that path. I also try from time to time to understand it all, and this forum and this area of that forum has provided me insight from many different people and there respective views into the world of religion. And if you look back, not once have I posted anything and have kept my mouth shut. But this is over the line from my viewpoint. Anyone in the medical field like myself would have to agree, otherwise they don't understand medical ethics. Never under any circumstance treat someone as an object. That's not exculsive to the medical community, but it is a big one in it. You are using this woman as an object to drive your point across. You didn't know this woman. You know nothing about her past or how she ended up in the hospital, and you know nothing surrounding her death. You know only words that were spoken by her. Based on numerous studies involving people having brain activity monitored when the end comes, some people sense that they are about to die. Some people will even shout and thrash around thinking this will stop the process. They are afraid and do not want it to happen. Not everyone, most go peacefully. But some don't. And to use this and imply that she was a bad person by saying she was slipping away into eternity in hell, knowing nothing about her past or how she lived her life, is just plain wrong. I try not to interfere with people and their beliefs such as yourself, but when it is used that way, rest assured I will speak up about it. I hope you and whomever reads this understands my anger and does not read this as a bash against religion. I am just expressing my anger towards how religion was expressed in this matter.
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Postby 870 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:32 pm

With all due respect to you, and not meaning to answer for pappy, Jesus all through the New Testament used people as objects to drive home His points.

For example:

The woman who had been bleeding for a great many years, He used her to show He had the power to heal

The woman at the well who had many husbands and the man she was living with wasn’t her husband. He used her to show He knows all about our lives and sins.

He used Lazarus death and resurrection to show He has power over life and death.

He used the boy who was demand possess, to show He had power over Satan and demons.

These I’m pulling from the top of my head. Please take the time and read through it and you will find a ton of these object lessons.

So for what pappy has done he’s only following his Lord’s example. Quite frankly I find it very easy to believe, understand and receive what happened in the story or testimony that pappy shared.

870 peace out. :thumbsup:
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Postby ducks1411 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:43 pm

No disrespect taken. Thank you for your response. However, I still find it unexusable using her in the way she was used. Knowing nothing about her, knowing nothing about what she has done, you cannot assume she was a bad person. The mention of her going to hell means that she was a "bad person" correct? People are not objects. I totally respect your guys' opinions and am not looking to stir up trouble, I just couldn't let this one go without a comment. I surrender now and hope I have not insulted anyone.
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don't surrender!!!

Postby gracenjohn » Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:48 pm

Ducks1411 - surrender is not an option! If not here, then where else can we talk openly and honestly about the questions we have about God?

I would love to hear more about the studies you talk about and the monitoring of brain waves. I don't subscribe to the fear principle, so let's hear your opinion.

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Postby Benelli Nova Shooter » Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:10 pm

Way to go, Gracenjohn. I agree with you. Don't run from a fight, all that does is expose your undefended backside to the opossing side. Face it with total faith that God is on your side. :thumbsup:
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Please, My friends, don't wait until its to late. Accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior today.
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Postby maddiedog » Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:32 pm

Well let me use this example instead! My grandfather was not a spiritual person when he was younger. He had his first heart attack and he said he saw things he never wanted to even mention. Once he was healthy he accepted Jesus and gave up drinking and most of his anger problems. That led to the loving grandpa that I grew up with. I knew him and that is an absolutely true story!
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Postby dudejcb » Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:22 pm

I find this pretty interesting. I was raised Methodist, but have searched by reading Life after Life, The tibetan Book of the Dead, A short History of Religion by Karen Armstrong, and other things. I don't have anything against religion except that it has so oftern been use to exploit and manipulate for power, money, politics. so in our human quest to answer the unanswerable we, as a species, have come up wit lots of different notions obout who and what God is. Is God really a mean God who wants you to suffer. I don't remember any stories of Jesus like that. He preached loving thine enemy, tolerance and forgiveness if I remember correctly. so why would God be policeman in the sky--if you're deemed good, go the heaven--if your deemed bad go to hell. clearly some people need this threat of hell or they might be capable of anything.


The reality is we don't know, it's a matter of faith and wishful thinking. that's okay but whatever it is, it's probably well beyond our ability to comprehend, and I find it very egotistical that people feel free to speak for and represent God's thinking.

that said, what we can comprehend is the Golden Rule. You don't need the ten cammandments plastered all over the place to remind you what's right and what's wrong, it's easy to remember. so I tend to get exasperated by many holier than thou types who exhibit so little tolerance and unconditional love toward their fellow travellers.

It is refreshing however, to read the entries in this thread. It seems as though we have a groud of free thinking tolerant people. Let's test it. is anyone really offended that homosexuals or lesbians might actually find love, comfort and caring and want to extend to one another the legal benefits of marriage of civil union? (especially when it comes to health benfits and end of life issues.) I'm not gay, but I tend to think of gays as sort of like a duck I once shot that was clearly half hen, half drake. The poor thing must not have been able to experience many of life's joys as he was stuck in limbo so to speak. The lives of gays must liekwise be naturally difficult, and if they are able to find peace and happiness, I'm glad for them. Why do we see various churches and "men of God" spreading hate and oppression over gays and women.

another thing. Did God really write and publish the Bible? WAs jhe a writer and publisher? While I think the bible has lots of ilustory stories and lessons, it is often taken far to literally and used to justify intolerance and hate mongering. it is worthwhile to recall that the Bible was written and re-written by mere men who had specific goals in mind.

It's a hard one to wrap one's mind around but i do enjoy the conversation. Be well, do good deeds, and let the chips fall where they may.
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Postby 870 » Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:54 pm

[quote="dudejcb"]The reality is we don't know, it's a matter of faith and wishful thinking. that's okay but whatever it is, it's probably well beyond our ability to comprehend, and I find it very egotistical that people feel free to speak for and represent God's thinking.
another thing. Did God really write and publish the Bible? WAs jhe a writer and publisher? quote]

Well dude, no God didn’t write or publish the bible. He did however inspire the writers 2 Timothy 3:16 “ All Scripture is given by God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” The bible has nearly 40 different writers and it took nearly 1,400 years to write. The writers ranged from kings, statesmen to fisherman. All 66 books that make up the bible 29 OT, 37 NT all spell out Gods plan for mans salvation, all point to Jesus.

This book that you and others try to disprove as from God, when read, believed and applied to ones life has changed lives, cities and continents for the good. I can understand way people like you don’t want to believe that the bible is from God. It would mean that He truly exists, and the Bible is His Holy will for mankind. Then that would mean that Heaven and Hell exists Heaven for His followers and Hell those who don’t.

Not looking to speak for other regions, but for Christianity we have our fair share of skeletons in the closets, our region isn’t perfect that’s the fault of man not God. I can understand why people point and say look you’re not perfect! There right, were not, but we serve a perfect and Holy God. Man has been trying to disprove the bible; the next step is to disprove Gods existence. If man could do that then they wouldn’t have to yield their will and conform to what the bible says is Gods will is for their lives. Man wants to be in charge of his life, the captain of his own ship, to exercise his own free will.

The greatest minds of science and math for years have been trying to prove the theory evolution. For years our greatest minds in theology have taken their science and math and proved then wrong to the point where they will not even debate our theologians because they make then look foolish.

I have seen too many things that God has done in my life and in the lives of others not to believe in Him, I have to go. Later 870 peace out
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Postby kiwismakebetterhunters » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:59 am

Well done dudejcb. Very well put and good too see everyone is keeping a cool and sensible head. I do have many questions about the existense of God and I do actually find the bible very difficult to believe. I would be greatful if 870 could please post up the arguments for
870 wrote: For years our greatest minds in theology have taken their science and math and proved then wrong to the point where they will not even debate our theologians because they make then look foolish.
I have obviously been listening to the wrong debates. I was brought up in a very fudamentalist religion but have broken free. I was taught that science and reason was bad and that faith (belief without question or science) is a virtue. Any question I had regarding the bible was always meet with God will show you in time or that its not for you to know. I found the actions of the God of the old testament to be particularly repulsive.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

Leviticus 20:9
If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.
Exodus 35:2
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death


Do you maybe understand my concerns? I think that with todays morality, most decent people would be shocked. Why do we believe in a God who orders rape, paedophilia, incest, genocide, murder, slavery ect? I do also have many contridictions on hand as well as scientific impossibilities from the bible for anyone interested. As for evolution/creation please show me evidence for creationism. I will not pretend to believe in God so I wont go to hell because if a omni-present, omni-scient God truly does exist then he will know that deep down in me I dont believe. So I'll be damned to hell anyway. I am willing to throw away any of my religious disbeliefs, so debating with me is not in vain. This isn't meant to be antagonistic but these are the questions I sincerly have.

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Postby 870 » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:01 am

kiwi, There are many great books out there that could answer your question or questions pertaining to creation verses evolution. I sat in on a seminar once on this subject; the evolutionist never stood a chance. As the theories of evolution were presented the creationist stood on math and science and calmly destroyed their theories. When fact is presented over theory fact wins every time.

I’m not the one to debate on this subject. I’m not at all train in this as our theologians are. I’m only sharing what I saw. I hope you find the answers your looking for. If you want I can put together a list of books that could help you find the answers.
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Postby dudejcb » Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:28 pm

Well 870, it's goog to know you're keeping a closed mind and have this whole God thing all figured out.

For anyone to say that the creationists' arguments calmly destoyed the theory of evolution, geology and astronomy may be oneof the most silly things I've ever encounterd. It's ludicrous, and simply points to the fact that you heard what you wanted to hear and discounted the rest. Good for you, but I don't think you're honoring God by not fully utiolizing your God-given reasoning power... or lack thereof.

I am not trying to prove their is no God. What I am suggesting is that God my not fit your model odf how He manifest himself. Your model is, let's say, a bit confined to whatever the thinking was during the last 3 to 4000 years, excluding any new discoveries and interpretations of the natural world that have ocurred within the last 3 to 500 years.

Let's take a trip downmemory lane and recall Copernicus and how the pious of his time persecuted him for revealing that God had actually made the world round, which didn't conform with their absolute certainty that, no, God had made the world flat, as anyone standing outside in the daytime could clearly see. Their calm arguments reinforcing the flat-earth notion clearly won the day, for a while anyway. And if the notions "Copy" was tossing about made them uncomfortable, well then they could just throw poor old Copernicus into the cross-bar religious detention center until he got his God-think back on straight. Let's not even go the the witch hunts done by the Holy who used looking for "the mark fo the Devil" as a voyeuristic excuse to strip women naked and look at their privates up close so find a wart or mole which would be proff positive of theri Devilish nature and urgnet need to be burned alive.

With the intellectual limitiation you have imposed on yourself, and your devotion and belief in you very narrow fundamentalist Christian version of how to be a good person (and attain salvation), you should really be hunting ducks with rocks, and sticks... maybe a sling.

Personally, I think there may still be a few creation miracles for us to unravel, like, how was the universe formed and why. What was there before. Don't give me the stone-age thinking that puts God in the role of potterer, molding us all from clay and stone. If he really is a God, I imagine he has better methods up his sleeve. Just becuase we understand some of hoe nature works, doesn't make it any less miraculous!

Oh, and no wonder the "old timey religious narcissists" wanted the seventh day of the week off... that was well before the popular convention of the five-day work week and frankly, both the slaves and the slave masters needed some down time to sort through all the good things they were busily doing in the name of God. Here in Idaho where I now live, we have lots of Mormons. This religion is a hoot! It has magic seeing stones, disappearing golden tablets and best of all it was founded on the trinity of poligamay, misogeny, and pedofilia. Holy Cow!

From what I can tell Mormons spend all day Sundays laying their agenda for the coming week, and how they can best discriminate against anyone who is not an M; or how they can overtake and subvert the public school system to serve their ends; and whether or not caffiene is a bad thing, depending on whether or not the church owns Coca Cola. Or whether or not black people can go to heaven, depending on what the Supreme Court rules. Free thinkers all, and no personal, parochial, political, or economic interests ever have any impact whatsoever on any popular church-think, and certainly not nowadays. Right.....
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Postby thaner » Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:34 pm

kiwismakebetterhunters

I am glad you have questions and some knowledge of the bible. That's a great start and your interest is a good sign that God may be working in your heart. So let me try to address a few things.

First I am glad you pulled away from religion. I hate religion. God did not crate religion. Man crated it. God crated everything around you and then he sent His Son to die for your sins because you are an imperfect person and you are no sin free so you can't have a personal relationship with a perfect sinless God. Forget religion, and seek Christ your savior who loves you and died for you!

Where in the bible does it say God ever ordered rape, pedophilia, incest, and murder? A just and good God that hates evil and sin and who would order the destruction of sinful nations would in turn order things like rape, pedophilia and the like? You can't find that in the bible, but give it a try. Not only was this not allowed to defile the people during the battles and occupation of the holly land, but the Israelites were not even allowed to take things, ie pillage, let alone rape. I think you have God’s people confused with the people of the land they were removing. It was the people of the land that were so perverted they did things you can’t imagine like offering their live new born babies to the red hot hands of their God statues; these are the people God said to drive out and destroy, and rightly so.

Is it murder to defend yourself from your enemies? Is it wrong for a God that is perfect and without sin and who created all things to judge the evil of men's heart and to have them wiped out if they are totally depraved? Do you understand that his people going into their land would in short time be prayed upon by those people and the totally depraved barbarians of the area would degrade and corrupt the Israelites in a short time if they were allowed to live or would band together with the other tribes of barbarians and constantly battle the Israelites? Do you know many lived and that they and the other of the region did infiltrate and corrupt the Israelite nation to the point they were no better than the barbarian heathen they drove out?

Do you realize that there is more scientific support of cretinism than there is of evolution? Noting in the bible has been proven wrong. Do you know the bible says the earth is round and the universe is ever expanding and that was thousands of years before anyone in science ever even thought those things were possible?

Those who think they can find inaccuracy in the bible find what with current english and with our current use of the english language appear to be contradictions, but that are simple language issue that are not supported by the original language the bible was written in and the customs of the day. Anti creationists, or anti God people have gotten to the point now that they can't disprove the bible so now they are trying to explain the miracles of the bible in a way to explain God out of the events. They can’t disprove the events have happened because there is too much evidence of it.

The theory of evolution is just that, an unproven theory. A theory is not a fact, but boy do people and many scientists like to make you believe it is a proven fact. Do you understand that many of the ape like man creatures of evolution are based on fragments of sculls an not even whole sculls or whole preserved bodies? Have you ever seen the same scull parts filled out and fleshed out with correct human posture, modern dress, and hair style? Okay no brad pit, but I have a few relatives that aren’t much better looking. See much of what you are told and shown is slanted to the evolution point of view. Do you know that there is no fossil record to support evolution? Do you know that there are not links between different species of animal? Millions or billions of years of slow evolution and all we have is slight changes is specified species with not one fossil to show a link between two totally different species. How can you explain that all types of fossils of all different animals, fish and birds are found in the same layers of the earth? Wouldn't the old ones be on the bottom and new on top? Shouldn't you be able to dig down through time and find all the changes in animals over a long period of time with just cretin ones long ago and then increasing different ones over a long period instead of just find mixed up everything of every kind all together? Sounds like maybe God made everything at one time doesn't it?

Do not let anyone or me tell you what to think or believe. Seek God! He will show you the truth if you truly seek the truth. The bible make perfect since if your heart, mind and eyes are open to it, but man's eyes are closed to the truth. Only God can open you eyes.

God's Love and peace to you. Keep searching!
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Postby thaner » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:01 pm

dudejcb

I don't want to be confrontational, but aren’t you a victim of hearing what you wanted to hear and discounting the rest or God's word?

I don' know about 870's model, but my model is Christ died and resurrected for the salvation of man. My model is the life of Christ and my life is a personal relationship with Christ, and not some man made up religion of the type you speak.

Clearly you are confusing corrupt religious leaders and off track religious zealots with the true worshipers of God and Jesus Christ. The God of the bible and the risen Savior have noting to do with these individual and God will judge them for their acts. Don't you know it was these types of people that Christ apposed? Don't you know it was the religious people of the time like the ones you reference that crucified the Son of God! And by the way the bible says the earth is round and universe is an expanding so how can you say the bible is not accurate with astronomy?

My version of narrow fundamentalist Christianity is based on the work of God. God's way is the narrow say, says so in the bible. The broad path leads to destruction or what man is always up to.

Somehow I think we may just agree on something. There are many histories we have yet to unravel and I don't think that because we understand some of how nature works that it makes it any less miraculous. AMEN! And as soon as science can crate something out of nothing or a completely new element or new life form from basic mater I will think we are really starting to figure a few things out.

Don't get me started on the Mormon stuff. Just another off the wall religion, boy does the Devil love a good old religion based loosely on the bible. It really pulls them in. As soon as you get your eyes off God and the Salvation of Christ you can fall of into who knows what cult.
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Postby MICHI-GANDER » Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:56 pm

If this helps,

I can liken organized religion to a large group of duck hunters. All of the hunters will claim to shoot ducks and geese feet down in the decoys. Quite often you will find the same hunters consistently shooting high, and skybusting.

That doesn't make all duck hunters skybusting slobs. Just like the faults of some people invovled in organized religion doesn't make all people involved in organized religion hypocrites.

Do the recent word's of Jim Zumbo group hunters into a bunch who want to ban gun ownership.

The key to a good relationship with the savior Jesus Christ is focusing on him, and blocking out the bad. Church is very beneficial to my life. Although from time to time I have run into people I need to steer clear of. Just like I try to steer clear of the skybusters.

I hope this helps some,

Brian
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Postby dudejcb » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:18 am

Michi-Gander... you sound pretty reasonable and I agree. It's alwasy best to focus on the good and not the bad. Unfortunately the "bad" usually makes the biggest splash and often has the greater impact.

No Question: Jesus was a superlative human being, and likely a true profit. Most historians and theologians (including the early church) agree however, that Jesus was probably not a God but was an exemplary human being whom we should all strive to learn from.

It seems that when the bible was written, edited, and revised there may have been an attempt underway by some to exclude some information, and perhaps simplify other things and use stark contrasts to get the point across so that the average person of the masses, would get the big idea. this in turn seems to have lead many to some literal interpretations that in and of themselves tend to stray from the intitial averarching ideas of unconditional love, tolerance, and instead tend to lead, generally, in the wrong direction.

While we can all agree on the good points in the Bible and in Jesus, we need to be vigilant, and discuss the bad stuff so it does not take root in the form of bad public policy, hateful constituional amendments, ill-advised wars that drive wedges between us--in the name of fear, hate, homophobia, or whatever other boogey men that lurk in the corners of small minds.

So thank you for your soft and hopeful message, but also please be courageous enough to confront--in a peaceful Jesus-like manner--those idealogs and zealots who are not so tolerant of others and have missed the essential teachings of Budda, Chrisna, Mohammed, Sister Theresa and all others of good will.
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Postby thaner » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:01 pm

If Jesus is just a profit and not the son of God and in fact God in the trinity then all is lost and there is no God! The bible is worthless and we are all dead for eternity. The death of a man can't pay the price for all the sins of mankind. Only the sacrifice of God the Son could pay such a big price.
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Postby dudejcb » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:01 am

Thaner, I think we're may be making some headway.

In the original develeopment of the monotheistic faiths (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) the BIG deal was to forget all the other Gods (you know, goddess of fertility, war, etc.) and get with the one God concept. then after some pretty good progress over a few centuries, the Christians decided, quite a while after the crucifiction of Jesus, to go with the trinity, three God, notion. It served their purpose at the time as it elevated them in relation to Judaism giving them the inside track when it comes to knowing all about God(s). Now, would the Roman Catholics really do this? Hummm, they did a lot of other crazy political stuff, so it's not too far fetched to imagine them in a marketing mode to get some religious traction with the masses (no pun). Myth and religion (and politics toofor that matter) have always been pretty intertwined, generally to promote good notions and ideals, but often the stories are metaphors and not literal truths.

to pursue this metaphor idea further let's consider the notion of immaculate conception. did Mary really become impregnated without sex? Or, is it a metaphor that says one can be born again, change one's ways and live a new life--sort of like the myth of mary Magdelin being a prostitute who then became an apostle. When this metaphor gets interpreted literally it has mythical, magical qualities that elevate the story to a magical (religious) phenomena that fairly easily convinces those who don't necessarily take the effort to think things through for themselves to the conculusion it must be something ethereal. this has the added bonus of satisfying our innate quest to lend meaning to our existence, our dominion over other creatures and the earth itself, and that we are on the right side of God.

Is there a God? I like to think there is and find the notion of seeing my parents and grandparents again in heaven very comforting. Did those guys 2000 years ago have a monopoly on heavy thinking and religious insight? Probably not. I think if we look at the Bible as a life guide and look for the overarching messages and not always just the literal stories, we might treat one another--even those with other profits--in a more tolerant peaceful manner, and perhaps disarm the attraction and destructive power of their zealots, and ours... Falwell, Dobson, et.al.
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Postby 870 » Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:31 pm

dude where do come up with all garbage that you do? You need to list your resources because you have absolutely no idea what it is your even talking about!!!!!
Christianity from its conception has believed in the Trinity! The Father Son and Holy Spirit. We haven’t changed a thing from our beginning. Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness” Now from the NT John 14:16 “ And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever the Spirit of Truth.” In case you’re interested those were the words of Jesus, He was speaking about the Holy Spirit the third person of the Godhead.

As for Mary Magdalene becoming an apostle she wasn’t, the bible speaks of her as a disciple not an apostle big difference. So before you start with your long dissertations on the bible and how we really need to enlighten our selves and come out of our ignorance, try reading it first.

Now as for one of your other post, we Christians don’t recognize the writings of Buda and others that man has raised to godhood. For your information there is only one book that leads to life eternal and that’s the bible.

Now as you sit they’re totally enraged and your blood boils thinking that there is someone who thinks that my way of thinking is way off base. Stop for a moment and think “what if he’s right”,,, If your right I live my life as a Christian with a clean conscience I die and that’s it. If I’m right, you live your life according to your rules die and are lost in Hell for eternity.

At the risk of being banned from this site I must say, get your facts straight. The only thing larger than your intellect is your ignorance of the Bible.

A2 if you ban me, so be it. :thumbsup:
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Postby thaner » Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:47 pm

:huh: I don't think we are making much headway, but we can try. :smile:

I have a savior based on faith and the study of the bible and you don't based on study of a lot of miss leading information designed to discredit Christianity. If you don’t believe the bible then there is no heaven in which you take comfort to believe in. The only heaven I know anything about is the one in the bible and the bible is very clear that Christ is the Son of God and the only salvation and way to heaven is through confession of sin and acceptance of Christ as your personal savior. John 3:16. Now if your talking about the heaven of the Muslim religion I don't think your making much headway on that one either, but I am not expert on the Muslim religion and I don't have plans to be.

The trinity is referred to over and over in the New Testament and the New Testament writers refer to the Old Testament often making the connection between Christ and all the promises in the Old Testament. The Old Testament, once you understand it, refers to the trinity in Genesis 1:26. In Genesis it doesn’t say “I” it says “We” when God refers to himself. Thought the bible God is not visible being or is he describe as such, but in Genesis God walks with Adam in the Garden; this is the pre incarnate Christ. Moses wrote Genesis a loooooooooong time before Christ was born. There was a time when the religious leaders got together to work out some issues of doctrine and the trinity issue was addressed at that time along with may other issues, but don't confuse religious leaders discussing doctrine with the fact that the bible says so long before any of them were alive to question or discuss. Read the bible and don’t follow religious leaders. Read it for you self.

True there are other religions with one God. But those one God (note little g) religions don’t change lives the way Christianity does. They don’t take murders from vicious cold harts to loving committed Christian willing to give their lives for Christ and others. When was the last time you saw a murderess individual get ala and turn a new leaf. These days that’s practically a oxymoron with the radical Muslims. There my friend is the difference between your beliefs and the beliefs of other religions; these beliefs don’t change lives the way Christianity does if they make any change at all. Christ is a living God and changes lives by the thousand every day. It’s one thing to have faith in something and it is a different thing to have faith that saves and transforms in miraculous ways.

The bible is backed up my countless ancient documents. The bible is more accurate than any other translated document in the history of man. It is God breathed and he has maintained it's accuracy through the ages.

I am afraid it was not the Catholics that got the inside track on Judaism. I think Christ parity much took care of that. In order to believe your statements about this the Catholics would have had to have written the whole new testament and most of the old. The ancient manuscripts, which are proven to have existed long before Catholicism, make that impossible given they are word for word accurate when properly translated.

Try cracking a bible and do some reading in the real deal instead of reading all the stuff written about it. That stuff is getting you nowhere. Start in the New Testament first and then go to the old. Don’t spend a lot of time in Revelations until you have a much better grasp of the bible in whole.
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Postby dudejcb » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:33 am

You seem pretty rigid in your (non) thinking mind-set and you simlpy parrot the old line that reflects what you've heard, read, and had interpreted for yourself by church leaders. You make my point!

Your thinking doesn't make my blood boil, it just reinforces the idea that common sense isn't all that common, and shows the extent of religiosity's intolerance of free thought and that God might be more open minded than you are. But didn't free thought beget the one God notion that at first, wasn't all that popular? Your rigidity toward questioning and seeking truth may be approaching the self-congratulatory smug status similar to those whom Jesus threw out of the temple, who needed to re-think things a bit... even if just for sport.

I repeat, God is not a writer nor a publisher, in fact, it's probably blasphemy to attempt to speak for God, since he/she/it is likely well beyond our ability to comprehend.

It sounds too like you are intelligent design enthusiasts. It may be that there was some sort of intelligent design but I think hard evidence shows it followed a different path of development from the standard creationist model. Science doesn't really know what energy is, especially at the sub-atomic level. but the notion of string theory and the unlikly chance of life itself being successful is evidence of a diety's hand (metaphorically speaking).

Please don't get mad. Just think and read other things than just the Bible, and if your IQ is 100 or greater you may see more than you thought. Look at the beauty of our beloved ducks, geese, and our dogs. Do you really think God loves only us, and we are the only ones who may get into heaven because we are Christians? really now....
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Postby 870 » Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:23 pm

I’ll admit that I’m as dogmatic in my beliefs as you are in yours. The big thing that separates us is this. The things in which you believe you’ve been taught only and the things that I believe I to have been taught and experienced. I have seen the God of the Bible do some wonderful things in my life and in the lives of others. That some professor or author or even Darwin couldn’t explain away.

I find it rather arrogant when someone who hasn’t spent the time digging into the bible and really seek the truth, to slam Christianity and Christians. To have the attitude that we are close-minded, week or stupid just because we choose to believe in the God of the Bible, that we limit ourselves just because we look on further for the truth. If you loose your keys, then find them, why look any father?

“Faith is the assurance of thing hoped for and the conviction of things not yet seen” We as Christians base our lives on faith. When you see God move and create a miracle in someone’s life, we don’t need carbon dating, we could careless.

Like you I’ve watch the Discovery Science channel. To believe in what they teach, in our origin, is so far out there it takes a whole lot more faith than I have to believe. They speak of the missing link in the chain of evolution. From what I’ve seen they don’t have a missing link, what they have is a link, with a missing chain.

We are both too dogmatic to change each other, so we’re at an impasse. Well God bless. :thumbsup:
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Postby dudejcb » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:11 pm

I did not mean to "slam" Christianity or you, I was talking about the people who use Christianity or any religion for less than religious purposes, which has and continues to happen... unfortunately. You folks just struck me as guys who would be good to have a dispassionate discussion about some things that really matter, but are not alwasy discussed with many divergent ideas. Hope I did not affend, but I did try to provike some ideas and thought.

I used to be very involved in the church and eventually was turned off by the hypocrisy andintolerance, and the willingness of so many to behave poorly all week and then get absolution, only to goout anb complete Arsses all week and then repeat the cycle. So I left organized religion and focussed on raising my sons to be thoughtful, empathetic good people. They are. (they also are good duck callers an crack shots.)

I've read the Bible, and lots of other books, and occasionally the discovery or history channel. I continue to strive toward greater understanding of many things, including the weather, duck calling, fly fishing, and on and on. Few things give me a more one-with-God feeling than sunrises on the marsh or sundowns alone in the mountains... who needs a church building? the glory is all around us and it's disturbing to see so many well to do church goers in such a hurry to "develop" and "improve" God's handiwork and make money in the bargain.

I'm glad you are content with what you know and believe. I just finished a pretty good book by Bill Bryson called A Short History of Nearly Everything. It's not religious or anti-religious, but it's interesting, entertaining, and you learn some about people, astronomy, geology, chemistry, physics, and archaelogy, and last but not least, how thoughtless we... the pinnalce of evolution (creation for you perhaps), are so thoughtless with other beings on this earth.

A couple other thought provoking books by Karen Armstrong (an ex-nun and theology PhD and historian): A short history of Religion and A Short History of Myth. Reading them will probably deepen your religious convictions but may also place some of our discussions in context.

Not to be too preachy (too late for that) but my tag line is true... Dogs are better than most people. they know what unconditional love is and they live it to the hilt. I think I've beaten this horse long enough, so be well.

Regards, Dude

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Postby 870 » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:19 pm

Dude between the two of us I should be the one with the open mind and not even any where’s close to God, church or any organized religion for that matter. I was raised Catholic, went to parochial school to the second grade. I was kicked out for being out of control and flunked that grade as well.

My home life is what I believe caused my behavior. My Mom wasn’t just Catholic she was Roman Catholic, she and I were in church every time that door was open. My dad was either hunting, fishing, trapping, and getting drunk or chasing women.

To say the lease, my home life was dysfunctional. From Dad came alcoholism, wife and child abuse physical and verbal. From mom came love and compassion and commitment. Why she put up with that for all those years still confounds me.

She tried to live the best Catholic life she could and tried to raise me believing in God. I had no use for God or church “what a waist of time” was my opinion. I started doing drugs at 10 years of age and started drinking at 11. By the time I graduated from high school. I went to church only because mom made me. Dad run off, on Easter Sunday in 1966. Mom and I went to church and Dad move out, what a coward.

People thought it was just awful that Dad took off, they were so wrong things got a whole lot better. At lease for Mom, I guess for me too. Even though my life was heading down the wrong road that was to take me 12 years to get off of. By this time Mom was working 7 days a week and ironed peoples close at night just to get us out of debt that Dad left us with and keep a roof over my head, she was quite a woman.

Again by the time I graduated high school I could legally drink back then and a good friend of mine owned a really hot bar and gave me a job bar tending in the afternoons and on the weekends. So here I was just 19, I had all the booze, drugs and girls I could handle, what did I need God for?

I knew I needed a change in my life so I moved out to Cali and the night before I left, my Mom made me promise that I would keep going to church. You know, you don’t break a promise to your Mom. So I kept going hating it all the more “what a waist of time”. So there I was sitting there looking up at Jesus on the cross looking like He was having a bad day. I said to myself you’re a hypocrite and I was. The only reason I picked up the collection was to check out the girls on the other side of the church. While I was sitting there looking up at Jesus I said to God “if there is more to you than this reveal it to me?”

Well to make a long story short He hasn’t stopped revealing Himself to me. I can’t blame the Catholic Church for my view of God and the church. I have since left the Catholic faith and now I’m of the protestant faith, for that’s where God has lead me. Seeing what He has done in my life proves to me that He’s a God of love and forgiveness and He wants to have a Father son relationship that’s not abusive. He won’t run off and leave you to come what my. God is, and He rewords those who seek Him. Seek and you shall find, knock and it will be opened to you. :thumbsup:
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