Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

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Do you believe in God and Jesus Christ?

Yes
179
83%
No
27
13%
Don't Know
9
4%
 
Total votes : 215

Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby duckkillerclyde » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:58 pm

ghmIV

appreciate the comment but when you quote a book that I haven't read and if I did read it, I would take it in as 100% fiction, I doesn't matter what it says.

my question to you is this; do you believe in communication with the dead? ghosts or spirits?
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby shoot-n-goose » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:04 pm

ghmIV wrote:When I was in college I learned about the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It states that the amount of randomness or chaos within a closed system is always increasing. This is in stark contrast to evolution where simple cells are developing into complex multi-cell systems.


You must have fell asleep in class, biological systems are far from being considered a closed system. The overall entropy of the multicellular organism is always increasing.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby Bill Herian » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:31 pm

duckkillerclyde wrote:science is not founded on faith that's why it's called science :hi:


At some point science stops explaining and takes a leap of faith. Scientific theories, when broken down to their smallest parts, all begin with a basic, unprovable assumption. You can ask "why" all day, at some point "science" is going to tell you "thats just the way it is" you choose whether or not to take that assumption as the truth, but there is a better word for that, its faith.

Belief in "science" really isnt all that far from beleif in a creator. In fact it involves more faith because there is so much that science cannot answer or account for.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby shoot-n-goose » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:53 pm

Bill Herian wrote:Belief in "science" really isnt all that far from beleif in a creator. In fact it involves more faith because there is so much that science cannot answer or account for.


The major thing you have to remember is that 2000 years ago when something could not be explained, they said God did it. Why are there stars in the sky? God put them there for man to look at. Why was my disease healed? God wanted you to live. Why are animals on the earth? God put them there to feed his people.

The lack of science caused people to create a higher being to answer these questions. We can now explain many things that would have been added to gods list of amazing acts before science was advanced as it is now. Imagine if you had a gun 2000 years ago, you would have been known as a "man of God" simply because they could not explain it.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby duckkillerclyde » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:26 pm

attention bill.

Please reference something out of the bible that I can look up that would be in a common history book.

If you can not do this. I think that we both can agree that the bible is complete fiction.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby Bill Herian » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:37 am

History books, like history, are subject to the author's bias. Same goes for a science book.

When you read a history book, don't think you are reading fact or truth. Yes, much of it might be universally accepted "facts" but the author's main goal in writing a textbook is to get it sold. The only way to do this is provide information congruent to what is generally accepted, or being taught, wheather that information is fact or fiction is secondary to sales. When an author writes a historical or sceinfitic work of "non-fiction" they have the same goal (sales) and the best way to achieve that is to provide information that is opposite of what is conventional(people want to read about breakthroughs, not the same stuff in textbooks) again, fact is secondary to sales.

If you think history books and science books are the only place where truth exists, prepare for a heap of highly processed information that gets fed to the masses because its easy and conventional (which is fine in moderation) with a smattering of deviant theories thrown into to spice it up.

I'm not saying text books and such are junk, I'm just saying remember they are subject to the same biases that any written work is. The fact that it has an author makes this so.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby duckkillerclyde » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:51 am

whether or not there is bias in the author it would still be documented.

Are you accepting defeat that there is no physical evidence that could be checked by a nonbeliever such as myself to prove them otherwise

I'm not trying to upset you or anyone just would like to see some kind of evidence
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby mixedbag916 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:05 am

duckkillerclyde wrote:attention bill.

Please reference something out of the bible that I can look up that would be in a common history book.

If you can not do this. I think that we both can agree that the bible is complete fiction.


There are references in the Old Testament to pharaoh in egypt. In the New Testament there are multiple references to roman rule and caesar. The problem with your argument based on history is that record keeping back then was not the greatest (to say the least). So to say that if something is referenced in one account, and not another, therefore it is fiction, is erroneous. Many non-believers acknowledge that Jesus Christ existed. Their sticking point is believing that He IS the Son of God, died on a cross, and rose from the dead.

Again, it's called faith for a reason. As for the whole science aspect, I believe Bill mentioned that science is itself somewhat of a religion. There's no way man can know exactly how the world was created. At least as a "scientific fact". And with evolution, the Bible does not say how God created man. Who knows, God could've utilized "evolution". We don't know. And we never will, at least as earthly beings.

IMO, God could come to earth, show Himself to everyone, and there would still be people who would refuse to believe. But that's what makes the world an interesting place. To each their own.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby duckkillerclyde » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:09 am

sci·ence
   /ˈsaɪəns/ Show Spelled[sahy-uhns] Show IPA
–noun
a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws:



faith
   /feɪθ/ Show Spelled[feyth] Show IPA
–noun
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.



HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SCIENCE AND FAITH JUST BY DEFINITION ALONE
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby duckkillerclyde » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:11 am

There is no such thing as faith in science.

science is science. the whole purpose of science is so you don't rely on faith.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby mixedbag916 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:12 am

duckkillerclyde wrote:then my question to you would be;

Do you look for traffic before walking across a busy street?
Do you go to the doctor?
Do you go to work?
Do you wear a seat belt?
Do you ever feel pain?

Why doesn't your lord and savior do this for you?

My point being is that if you have accepted jesus christ as your lord and savior, why are you still living in this life. Why not let all things happen for a reason and live your life without a care in the world since you will be saved anyway?


the TRUTH is;
nobody has ever seen jesus christ
the bible is a book that has been put together by many authors and has survived for thousands of years
church is essentially a "book club"
religion is no different than a cult

I'm not telling you how to live your life, just pointing out the obvious.


It would also seem obvious that if jesus christ was real, he would not allow pedophiles promote himself. I am not calling all priests pedophiles but a few years back there was quite a few.



Buddy, you really need to read the Bible before you start making blanket statements. The Bible clearly lays out answers to your first set of questions. Our lives aren't predetermined. We have free will (hence why you can make statements like above). Jesus stated that we all go through trials in life. He is there to guide us.

As far as the Bible being put together by many authors...YES! That's the beauty. It was written by many people from many backgrounds and it is seamless. It was written over thousands of years, and is seamless! It was God-inspired.

And for people seeing Jesus, read my previous post. Many non-believers say that Jesus existed. Your ignorance is showing. I don't know much about Islam, so I wouldn't go making generalizations about it. You shouldn't do so on Christianity until you learn something about it.

And the so-called truth you listed is what you think is the truth. And if that works for you, so be it.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby mixedbag916 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:14 am

duckkillerclyde wrote:There is no such thing as faith in science.

science is science. the whole purpose of science is so you don't rely on faith.



There is a lot of faith in science. Do you believe in the "big bang theory"? That would be faith because it can't be proven.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby duckkillerclyde » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:17 am

If you send me a bible in the mail. I will read it and write you a book report. Then we can talk again because your argument of "you have to read the bible before you can say that there is no jesus christ" is just an exhibition of your gullibility and ignorance to facts.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby mixedbag916 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:19 am

duckkillerclyde wrote:If you send me a bible in the mail. I will read it and write you a book report. Then we can talk again because your argument of "you have to read the bible before you can say that there is no jesus christ" is just an exhibition of your gullibility and ignorance to facts.



PM me your address and I would be happy to send you a Bible!
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby shoot-n-goose » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:17 am

mixedbag916 wrote:As far as the Bible being put together by many authors...YES! That's the beauty. It was written by many people from many backgrounds and it is seamless. It was written over thousands of years, and is seamless! It was God-inspired.


Having being written over such a long period, isn't it safe to assume that many of the stories of jesus were first learned via word of mouth. Knowing the way people exaggerate stories (fishermen) I would think that over a generation or two that a simple man could "walk on water" and "cure the ill"

mixedbag916 wrote:There is a lot of faith in science. Do you believe in the "big bang theory"? That would be faith because it can't be proven.


There is much, much more evidence supporting the big bang theory, such as the outward expansion of the universe from a single point (red shift), and the energy waves (radiation) still present and detectable from the initial explosion.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby duckkillerclyde » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:30 pm

shoot-n-goose wrote:
mixedbag916 wrote:There is a lot of faith in science. Do you believe in the "big bang theory"? That would be faith because it can't be proven.


There is much, much more evidence supporting the big bang theory, such as the outward expansion of the universe from a single point (red shift), and the energy waves (radiation) still present and detectable from the initial explosion.


and it has been reproduced on a much much smaller scale of course in the particle accelerator.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby duckkillerclyde » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:34 pm

big bang theory

black hole that consumes all light and all mass from everything except protons from atoms as they have a the same charge as the black hole there for react similar to two magnets pushing away from each other. black hole eventually gains too much weight and heat and causes an explosion.

at least that is the way I understand how it works. I am not very good at explaining it. help me out shootngoose.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby Bill Herian » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:43 pm

Clyde, you seem to harbor a certian enamoration with dictionary definitions. It seems you trust Mr. Webster to supply you with the truth just readily as you do Mr. Hawking. The problem is that dictionary defintions are seldom absolute. Especially when they try to condense a subject as massive as science into one phrase. The defintion you so graciously provided us with (i checked, its the first hit on google) is simply the phrasing that the author chose that would satisfy the broadest range of circumstances. Coincedentally, this is what many scientific explanations do, there is seldom an absolute in science, most every theory, tenent, and classification has exceptions. I'm guessing the person charged with defining science thought it much easier to provide this broad explanation than delve into the specifics.

If thats all the deeper you want to dig (comparing dictionary defintions) and you feel you have derived the truth from that, well, thats kind of sad.

duckkillerclyde wrote:There is no such thing as faith in science.

science is science. the whole purpose of science is so you don't rely on faith.


Clyde!!!!! :mad:

We just got done talking about this. Science is founded in faith. Think of science as a massive pyramid made of millions of little tiny blocks that is constantley being built. You can follow those blocks down to the very bottom layer but you can only get so far. What is the foundation that the pyramid is built on? We don't know, science can't explain what it is or where it came from, that bottom layer is as close as we can get. We just assume that the baseline is there, we take it in faith, and go from there. There are massive unprovable voids that you must make a faith based assumption to overcome (you can say that they just havent been proven yet but you can't prove that they are provable, at least not without proving them).

shoot-n-goose wrote:Having being written over such a long period, isn't it safe to assume that many of the stories of jesus were first learned via word of mouth. Knowing the way people exaggerate stories (fishermen) I would think that over a generation or two that a simple man could "walk on water" and "cure the ill"


Howdy Shoot-n-goose

This is a good point (thank you!). I agree that is dangerous to take the bible or any written work as the truth. They are merely the result of human perception. I don't know about you but i'm not taking any one person's word as the say all-end all. I agree that bible probably contians great exaggerations knowing how information flowed during the time of its creation, but it would be unfair to assume that science is not subject to the same malady. We all know that science is supposed to be empirical, unbiased, and objective, (as the dictionary defines it, credit Clyde). That makes it the perfect machine to explain all the crap we want explained, but we know that the problem lies in the operator. Knowing that humans are driving force behind science pretty much gaurantees that at some point, it will be contaminated by human's inability to ahere to those tentents that science is founded in. Science is subject to self affirmation the same way a relegion is. A group of people agree on some particular scientific finding and perpetuate it, affriming like-minded findings and condemning the deviants. Science isnt infalliable, because, like the bible, it is the construct of human perception. There is no way to keep it clean, humans ultimatley will shape it untill it becomes acceptable, our brains are very good at this.

In this sense, sunscribing to a scentific explaination, no matter how logical it seems, is no different than subscribing to the teachings of El Bible'. You are interpreting the results of human perception and all the non sceintific factors that might have influenced it.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby shoot-n-goose » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:23 pm

duckkillerclyde wrote:big bang theory

black hole that consumes all light and all mass from everything except protons from atoms as they have a the same charge as the black hole there for react similar to two magnets pushing away from each other. black hole eventually gains too much weight and heat and causes an explosion.

at least that is the way I understand how it works. I am not very good at explaining it. help me out shootngoose.



This is the way I understand the big bang:

About 15 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the universe. This explosion is known as the Big Bang. At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point. What existed prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. This occurrence was not a conventional explosion but rather an event filling all of space with all of the particles of the embryonic universe rushing away from each other. The Big Bang actually consisted of an explosion of space within itself unlike an explosion of a bomb were fragments are thrown outward. The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundations for the universe.



As for science and faith, I understand what is being said about science is based entirely on human perception, but I believe its a entirely different thing than believing in God. I would like to see a scientifically published piece of work that even has the word faith in it. I doubt you could find one, much less in the context of anything religious.

One thing that is interesting is what happened in WWII when small pacific islands were used as remote airbases. The native people had NEVER seen a plane before, but when planes started showing up they received food and tools. Once the war stopped, so did the plane traffic. The natives actually built replica planes from bamboo and worshiped them like it was a God.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby Bill Herian » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:32 pm

quote="shoot-n-goose"]I would like to see a scientifically published piece of work that even has the word faith in it[/quote]

You just posted one (i think, does that passage count as a "piece of work"?)


shoot-n-goose wrote:What existed prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation



You're right, the word faith is not used, but different words can have the same meaning (I'm sure DictionaryClyde can vouch :wink: ). "A matter of pure speculation" in this case sounds like something we just have to take for granted at the present time, something we can't explain or prove, something that we just to take on faith, we have to believe it or nothing that follows can be explained. Its the unknown foundation of the pyramid, you found it. :bow:
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby shoot-n-goose » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:15 pm

Bill Herian wrote:
shoot-n-goose wrote:I would like to see a scientifically published piece of work that even has the word faith in it


You just posted one (i think, does that passage count as a "piece of work"?)


shoot-n-goose wrote:What existed prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation



You're right, the word faith is not used, but different words can have the same meaning (I'm sure DictionaryClyde can vouch :wink: ). "A matter of pure speculation" in this case sounds like something we just have to take for granted at the present time, something we can't explain or prove, something that we just to take on faith, we have to believe it or nothing that follows can be explained. Its the unknown foundation of the pyramid, you found it. :bow:


Speculation and faith are still different. Speculation means it is not yet known. Faith, in my opinion, is believing in the improvable. You cannot prove that God exist. The pre-big bang universe will be uncovered, it just takes time (well...money). That passage is not a scientific document, and it also lacks the word "faith". They are not telling you to believe the unknown that was pre-big bang, they are saying they don't know what it is, but that everything after the big bang has been backed up. I do not see any claims which rely on faith. The post big bang universe was not directly related to the pre-big bang universe.

Comparing the meaning of faith and the big bang isn't really apples to apples. It is such and unfathomably large event that dwarfs us beyond what we can comprehend.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby duckkillerclyde » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:18 pm

spec·u·la·tion
   /ˌspɛkyəˈleɪʃən/ Show Spelled[spek-yuh-ley-shuhn] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the contemplation or consideration of some subject: to engage in speculation on humanity's ultimate destiny.
2.
a single instance or process of consideration.
3.
a conclusion or opinion reached by such contemplation: These speculations are impossible to verify.
4.
conjectural consideration of a matter; conjecture or surmise: a report based on speculation rather than facts.
5.
engagement in business transactions involving considerable risk but offering the chance of large gains, especially trading in commodities, stocks, etc., in the hope of profit from changes in the market price.
6.
a speculative commercial venture or undertaking.



sorry guys, I just had to :no:
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby Bill Herian » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:43 pm

shoot-n-goose wrote:The pre-big bang universe will be uncovered, it just takes time


You sound confident, ironic, because you later go on to say that the big bang is..

shoot-n-goose wrote:such and unfathomably large event that dwarfs us beyond what we can comprehend.


...but apparently we will figure it out, with time and money, as both with no doubt increase our understanding.

Unfathomably large...dwarfs what we can comprehend...kinda reminds me of a story I heard where this guy created everything you know to exist in a weeks time. :hi:

I'm calling apples to apples.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby shoot-n-goose » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:23 pm

Bill Herian wrote:
shoot-n-goose wrote:The pre-big bang universe will be uncovered, it just takes time


You sound confident, ironic, because you later go on to say that the big bang is..

shoot-n-goose wrote:such and unfathomably large event that dwarfs us beyond what we can comprehend.


...but apparently we will figure it out, with time and money, as both with no doubt increase our understanding.

Unfathomably large...dwarfs what we can comprehend...kinda reminds me of a story I heard where this guy created everything you know to exist in a weeks time. :hi:

I'm calling apples to apples.


I'm saying the scale of the universe would have super computers sweating. We might find out what happened before, but it won't be nearly as easy as going to the moon. I also did not say how much time it would take. It could easily be thousands of years, which I would hope that the human race would evolve to a point of greater comprehension.

But honestly, do you actually know how small we are in the known universe? Its much smaller then a grain of sand compared to the entire mass of the earth.
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Re: Who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ?

Postby Bill Herian » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:23 pm

shoot-n-goose wrote:But honestly, do you actually know how small we are in the known universe? Its much smaller then a grain of sand compared to the entire mass of the earth.


Suddenly our pyramid of empirical knowledge dosent seem so grand. Think of all the crap we don't even know we don't know. :sad:

This whole creator idea is seeming more and more plausable by the minute. :lol3:

In all seriousness though, the size of the universe hasent much to do with this. After all, as we decided, any information that you and I can gather on this is second hand interpretation, heck it might even be the product of, what was the word, Clyde? Oh, yea, speculation.

We could bicker untill we're old, washed up losers (im game), but I think we are going to arrive at the same conclusion, both science and religeon, no matter how much sense they make, are both human constructs and while they sorta contradict each other, this is one case where the phrase "were not so different, you and I" actually applies, not because they share qualities, but because they share flaws.
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