long range bullet?

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long range bullet?

Postby Vav » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Just was wondering what makes a good long range bullet. is it shape or how much it weighs and how fast it is being pushed? also what you think is the best bullet for taking far shots with a rather flat trajectory. The reason for these questions is because i am wanting to get a new rifle and put a leupoled VX 3 with the custom turret all the way out to 1000 yards.
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Re: long range bullet?

Postby Sandman3400 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:29 am

Vav wrote:Just was wondering what makes a good long range bullet. is it shape or how much it weighs and how fast it is being pushed? also what you think is the best bullet for taking far shots with a rather flat trajectory. The reason for these questions is because i am wanting to get a new rifle and put a leupoled VX 3 with the custom turret all the way out to 1000 yards.


All of the above. It is a combination of those factors. You have to look at the ballistics charts for your caliber and determine the best load, bullet, etc. for your rifle.
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Re: long range bullet?

Postby Sagebrush » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:34 am

Generally 0 to 300 yards any bullet will work if it is a spitzer type and the boat tail design does not come into effect until 400 yards and farther out and the maximum fps is not always needed for the best accuracy in a lot of guns.

You just have to try the different types of bullets out, that you will use in your rifles, since they might like the flat base over the boat tails or even a semi spitzer over the new plastic tip models or the light bullets over the heavy ones.

Generally speaking, the larger bullets buck the wind better and hold their energys, farther down range if you are going farther than 300 yards.

Part two ,from accuracy, is how your bullet performs......................but that is another story.
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Re: long range bullet?

Postby duckbio » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:23 am

Another question is what will you be using the rifle to do? Is it strickly a target rifle, or are you looking to hunt something with it? If you are using it to hunt, what are you going to be hunting with it? These questions along with the other input needs to be considered. Caliber is a big factor in the effective range of the bullet too.
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Re: long range bullet?

Postby ajmorell » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:22 am

duckbio wrote:Another question is what will you be using the rifle to do? Is it strickly a target rifle, or are you looking to hunt something with it? If you are using it to hunt, what are you going to be hunting with it? These questions along with the other input needs to be considered. Caliber is a big factor in the effective range of the bullet too.


Exactly what I was thinking when I read the first post. IMO the consideration of taking game at 1000 yards isn't even ethical.
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Re: long range bullet?

Postby goodkarmarising » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:39 am

ajmorell wrote:
duckbio wrote:Another question is what will you be using the rifle to do? Is it strickly a target rifle, or are you looking to hunt something with it? If you are using it to hunt, what are you going to be hunting with it? These questions along with the other input needs to be considered. Caliber is a big factor in the effective range of the bullet too.


Exactly what I was thinking when I read the first post. IMO the consideration of taking game at 1000 yards isn't even ethical.


If you can do it safely, it can be done very easily. And if the right gun is built, I can very easily see doing it. I got to shoot a custom built gun this last weekend and all I can say is wow. The gun I was shooting was a 7mm mag shooting 150 grain bullets at a lil over 2800 fps, nothing too fast. The gun is set up for long range shooting. I had never shot this gun, so came into it completely cold. We was ranging ballons taped to wood dowels ranging from 100 yards out to 453 yards with a rangefinder. We was going to set up to around 615 yards, but it was not safe to do so with how people were located so we didn't. The gun did not kick anymore than a factory .223 and each time I drilled the ballons, the 453 yard one went down like nothing. I was not in the most stable position...was shooting out of the back of a truck from a sitting position and a bipod so I know that gun can be pushed even more.
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Re: long range bullet?

Postby Sandman3400 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:10 pm

That is fine for target shooting, but there is very little energy left in a bullet at 600 plus yards. You will have very little knockdown power left and wounding and losing an animal becomes very likely.
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Re: long range bullet?

Postby ajmorell » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:39 am

goodkarmarising wrote:
ajmorell wrote:
duckbio wrote:Another question is what will you be using the rifle to do? Is it strickly a target rifle, or are you looking to hunt something with it? If you are using it to hunt, what are you going to be hunting with it? These questions along with the other input needs to be considered. Caliber is a big factor in the effective range of the bullet too.


Exactly what I was thinking when I read the first post. IMO the consideration of taking game at 1000 yards isn't even ethical.


If you can do it safely, it can be done very easily. And if the right gun is built, I can very easily see doing it. I got to shoot a custom built gun this last weekend and all I can say is wow. The gun I was shooting was a 7mm mag shooting 150 grain bullets at a lil over 2800 fps, nothing too fast. The gun is set up for long range shooting. I had never shot this gun, so came into it completely cold. We was ranging ballons taped to wood dowels ranging from 100 yards out to 453 yards with a rangefinder. We was going to set up to around 615 yards, but it was not safe to do so with how people were located so we didn't. The gun did not kick anymore than a factory .223 and each time I drilled the ballons, the 453 yard one went down like nothing. I was not in the most stable position...was shooting out of the back of a truck from a sitting position and a bipod so I know that gun can be pushed even more.


x2 on what is said in the post above by Sandman, but I also wanted to add that shooting at a live target also brings other variables into the equation, like adrenaline. Even a heavy bullet will have a significant amount of drift at 400 yards so judging the wind is imperative.
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Re: long range bullet?

Postby apexhunter » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:51 pm

ajmorell hit the nail on the head as there is a huge difference between shooting targets (paper or balloons) at 453 yards and shooting at game at 1,000 yards. There definitely are guns and shooters capable of making the shots but the terminal ballistics and margin for error are within such a small defined area that one has much more of a chance of wounding an animal than cleanly putting it down.

The specifics of the load you were shooting are a bit slow for a 150 gr projectile...but for conversation sake a 168gr Sierra Match King at 2950'/sec and 3245ft-lbs at the muzzle will drop 180.7" at 1,000 yards (that is over 15'!) and the energy drops to 703ft-lbs. Granted, the terminal energy is approximately equal to the muzle energy of a 210gr hollow point out of a .44 rem mag pistol but there is much less frontal area with the 7mm than with the .44 mag. Plus the wind drift over that range is tremendous as a 10mph side wind will push the bullet over 7' (85.3").

If you are target shooting and have the time to calculate distance, wind, elevation and temperature/humidity then adjust the scope turrets (and have enough ammo for practice) one can definitely become a truly accurate long range shooter if there are good, solid fundamentals being used...but going after game at these ranges can be a very iffy situation.
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Re: long range bullet?

Postby Kurt » Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:03 pm

With about 1300 rounds down this range this summer from 800 and in if a situation arises that i need to shoot a deer that far i will have no hesitation. For the average guy that gets the crappy leupy with the turrets and does not do the work and learn the science and art of precision long range rifle shooting anything out side of 400 yards is probally just a crap shoot. I always love the story about the guy that hit the deer running 500 yards away and held on his back.
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Re: long range bullet?

Postby Tango2Echo » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:19 pm

I shoot F/TR and other various long-range rifle competitions. I have about 30 years of experience shooting at ranges to and well beyond 1000 yards, and I practice serveral times per week at ranges to 1000 yards on 12"x12" steel plates. I have taken deer to 608 yards and coyotes to 627 yards. There are serveral factors to think about if you want to shoot at these ranges.

1) wind drift can be 15 to 20ft under certain conditions.
2) elevation can be the same.
3) bullet flight time can be as much as 1.6 seconds. That is a lot of time for game to move.
4) retained energy is marginal for medium and large game.
5) reading the wind and range takes years to learn. so does proper form and technique.
6) you will need some special equipment like a PDA based ballistic computer, wind meter, asmuth indicator, 20 MOA scope base, a mildot or millirad scope that is first focal plane, a rifle that is atleast MOA or better beyond 300 yards, reloading equipment, and the knowledge to use all of the above. And a really big wallet.

Let me put it this way, 20% of the worlds population can run a sub 6:20 mile. Less than 5% can do it in less than 6:00. About 15,000 people out of 6 Billion can run a sub 4:30 mile, and about 2000 can run under 4 minutes. I will bet you there are more people in the history of the Olympics to run under 4 minutes in the mile than have ever made an "actual" 1000 yard shot on game.

Try this sometime. Place a piece of 9mm brass on the range at 100 yards. Now shoot it with a .22lr. That is a roughly the same size target with a similar trajectory to shooting a man-sized target at 1000y. That is just hitting the target, not putting one in the vitals. :eek:

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Re: long range bullet?

Postby Kurt » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:35 pm

Why would you need a scope on the ffp if you are not using it to range and ideally not useing the reticle for hold overs and about the only way it would be better if you need to follow up because you can just read the reticle and reguardless of what power you are on. But at that range you would be on a high power and that is where most sfp scopes are calibrated to run. Also there are many reticles out there that are not mill or millrad same thing, that are used with great effect. I gues i would rather have matching turets and reticle be it moa or mil. dont get me wrong the next piece of glass i get will be a ffp but to say you have to have one to shoot LR is just wrong. Get the right scope and you dont need the 20 moa base but is help full so you dont use most of your range on the elevation. And elevation is easy as it is gravity and gravity is generally the same. Changes a little with elevation and other enviromental factors but not enough that you can not correct for. the wind now thats the magic of long range shooting. 1.6 seconds time of flight is a little long with most cals that you shoot that far at 1000 it is probally closer to 1.486 as you are generaly running over 3000 fps to start but that is just a average guess there is always that one thing that is different. Dont need a pda all the new smart phones have shooting apps on them which are very acurate. I would rather us mirage as wind judge as i really dont care how the wind is blowing at my bbl as it is not really affect much there.

Try this sometime. Place a piece of 9mm brass on the range at 100 yards. Now shoot it with a .22lr. That is a roughly the same size target with a similar trajectory to shooting a man-sized target at 1000y. That is just hitting the target, not putting one in the vitals.

What trajectory are you comparing that to becaue just guessing there is a little difference from a .260 to .308 to a 338 LM
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Re: long range bullet?

Postby Tango2Echo » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:22 pm

The comparison equates to .308@1000y with 168gr btsp at 2750 and .22lr@100y with 40gr rn solids.


FWIW, I was shooting a self-built Howa .308 with a 1 in 11 twist 26.5" heavy bbl, Mcmillian stock, CDI bottom metal, ACSI mags, SDI bipod, S&B glass in ACSI rings and 20MOA base, about 12 hours ago a 800y. I load the 168gr Hornady AMAX with 44.6gr of Varget in Lapua brass with CCI BR2 LRPs. Atmos was 29.95/74f/310@8G10/RH64% Direction of fire was 070.

.76MOA @ 800y, or alittle over 6" groups. Drop was -199"". Impact was -157". Drift was 34.5"

Kurt, this is an example of why the average guy has no clue about LR shooting. In this situation I was using a $4000 rifle that I am intimately familar with. I had over 15 FEET of holdover and 3 FEET of windage. Time of flight was nearly 1.2 seconds. The groups recorded are well within the vitals of a deer, however, I fired them under idea conditions with a calm heart rate and all the time in the world. The opposite of a hunting situation.


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Re: long range bullet?

Postby Kurt » Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:24 pm

I like the 168 amax with 45 grains of varget and load to about 2.835 coal need to get the bullet comparitor so i can start measureing fromt the ogive as that is more acurate. Which Schmidt and Bender are you running would love to have a s&b just have to fit that in a budget. What mcmillian do you have i like the a5. I am going to have GAP build me a gun once i get my wife convinced of it. I have seen people with a rem sps shoot moa groups out to 1000 with a factory gun and the scope was a nxs so it does not have to be a 4000 dollar gun to get it done. I am hoping you are not holding over anything as i would guess you are dialing the knobs and guessing that since you have to have a mil reticle that you are dialing mills not feet hoping you are just useing that as example for people who dont know difference between metric and standard units of measure. Next you are going to start telling me about spin drift and the correolis effect and how you have to figure that in there. There is a great video on snipers hide about spin drift if you want to watch it. Guess if you are trying to convey a bunch of info to impress me about how hard it is i am not your guy. To the average deer hunter they have no clue and as i said 400 yards is probally a crap shoot. If i am shooting at a deer at 600 yards i have all the time in the world and am also calm. This is where experience comes into play to take or not take a shot. I know it is hard for people who have never hunted west of the mississippi to contenplate taking a long shot but in some cases it is either that or go home empty handed.

Once you get past 800 how long does it take the amax to go trans sonic and s tart to tumble. I have had it out to 1010 but after that it all goes to hell. Either going to have to go heavy or go light and burn the 155 scenars out there. Tried 155 bergers and able to load them long enough and still use magazine in the rem 700.
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Re: long range bullet?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:06 am

I have been shooting Nosler BT's for years, They are sub MOA accurate and cheep. Out to 350 yds (farthest shot I have taken so far with the 300) I have never had one blow up or fail to function even with shoulder shots and bone strikes. Federal at one time has a video test on their site showing several bullets (I think with the shooting USA tv show guy) and the BT did great even thru a cow femur. I use a 300 WSM and load them to 2990fps 4' from the muzzle and could go higher but accuracy starts to suffer. I like that I can use this same bullet on coyotes If need be and it flattens them right there. I can also interchange them with the accubond with no scope adjustment at all in my Browning A-Bolt's. I have tried Barnes bullets and in my rifles and thru too many test loads to count the accuracy is ok at best giving me 1 to 2" 100yd groups. And they do not seem to have the shock effect that the BT's have.
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