New military pistol and rifle?

From the .22 to the mighty 50 caliber

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New military pistol and rifle?

Postby Gooseboy » Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:03 pm

So the military is looking at getting new pistols and rifles. Just wondering what everyones opinion was on what the military should get?

For a pistol i think either a Sig p226 or a H&K USP in .40 Smith and Wesson

For a rifle the H&K XM8 looks pretty good to me in .223
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Postby LA.Call'emClose » Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:54 am

The miliatry should go back to the M1911 in .45 acp
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Postby Gooseboy » Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:42 am

I thought about .45 but thought .40 would be better because of the recoil for some soldiers.

I LOVE the 1911 but i think we need a new pistol. HK USP .45 is nice setup much like the 1911.
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Postby jjohnson_714 » Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:57 pm

if they cant take the recoil of a .45, then they should consider a career change or a desk job or the airforce... i wouldnt want a bunch of sissys defending the country...
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Postby ARDuckBuster » Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:08 pm

:withstupid:
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Postby Gooseboy » Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:03 am

Yea thats true. I guess the pistols i listed with .45

But still i believe in shot placement. A shot with a 9mm to the head is better than a shot of a .45 to the shoulder.

Im really starting to like the HK USP man thats a nice gun.

Ive heard complaints about the .223 so maybe our new rifle should be the .243?
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Postby pennsyltucky » Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:10 pm

a 6mm would be a good choice, but barrel life would be a downer with the 243win.... if thats what u meant.

but it would be a no brainer for them to use a 6mm version of the 7.62. ive always wondered why the went with the puny 223 instead... cheap probably

but if i were to enlist, i would like to be issued an auto 10 ga and a casul. keep the other stuff......
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Postby Gooseboy » Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:34 pm

Yea but they probably like rifles because of the ease of ammo storage.
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Postby Penguine » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:15 pm

jjohnson_714 wrote:if they cant take the recoil of a .45, then they should consider a career change or a desk job or the airforce... i wouldnt want a bunch of sissys defending the country...


I am guessing you have no clue what the Air Force is currently involved in over in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's ok though, we serve so you can have the right to voice your opinion.

And to call anyone a sissy if they can't handle the recoil of a .45 ACP? Bold statement. I would venture to say anyone, in any branch of the service is very far from being a sissy.

Like I said, voice your opinion, it is your right, no matter how wrong it is. It just really pisses me off when comments about the military like yours are made. Go visit a recruiter, join the Air Force and request your career field be a 2T1, when you are riding a gun truck in Iraq for 8+ months dodging bullets, IED's, and insurgents maybe your opinion of the service will change.
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Postby Gooseboy » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:16 pm

Whats a 2tI?
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Postby Penguine » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:19 pm

Gooseboy wrote:Yea thats true. I guess the pistols i listed with .45

But still i believe in shot placement. A shot with a 9mm to the head is better than a shot of a .45 to the shoulder.

Im really starting to like the HK USP man thats a nice gun.

Ive heard complaints about the .223 so maybe our new rifle should be the .243?


Hey GB, we are not trained to shoot at the head. We are trained to shoot center mass. The head is a very small target compared to the chest.

Doubtful that the military is going to switch to a rifle that uses anything but the standard round fired out of the M-16 / M-4. We use the same round as our NATO allies. I have a link at work of a weapon I would like to see us have, I will have to find it when I am back at work.
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Postby Gooseboy » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:21 pm

Yea i know but you get the point. What im saying is shot placement is better than caliber.

Yea i know thats why i figured we wouldnt change because of NATO.
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Postby Penguine » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:23 pm

Gooseboy wrote:Whats a 2tI?


Vehicle Operator, same as the Army MOS for Transportation Specialist. We (my shop) currently have a number of folks deployed running convoys into and out of Iraq. 4 of the 5 Tech Sergeants that are acting Convoy Commanders have had to deal with attacks and IED's on each of their convoys. A few of them have had folks injured and had to call in medevac choppers. But hey, all we do in the Air Force is sit on our collective butts and watch from the sidelines.
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Postby Gooseboy » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:26 pm

I understand. Nobody thinks the Navy does anything but sit on ships but that far from it. Lol when i tell people my dads a pilot in the navy they are like you mean air force?

Sure the grunts are in combat humping it out but everyone does there part. :thumbsup:

Its just to bad airforce couldnt beat Navy in football this year. WOOT WOOT! :mrgreen:

I heard somewhere this guys humvee had been hit but like 4 ieds in one week. :thumbsdown:
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Postby Penguine » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:27 pm

Yes GB I know shot placement is more important then calibre. I have a friend in the USMC (Gunnery Sgt Scott Guise http://www.hendersonvillenews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050516/EXTRAS02/505160321/1034) and he would even tell me he never shoots for the head. Think of how small the head is at 100 yards, 300 yards, beyond... He would shoot center mass. That article talks about one of his shots in Iraq, 700 yards with a 50 cal.
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Postby Gooseboy » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:33 pm

Dang! I talked to some guy who got shot by a .50 with his kevlar and he was knocked back like 15 feet. I wonder how he was with blood truama and all.

But yea i know you guys dont shoot for the head like i said i was trying to make a point.

Interesting article. I bet that barret put a number on him.
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Postby jjohnson_714 » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:43 pm

Penguine wrote:
jjohnson_714 wrote:if they cant take the recoil of a .45, then they should consider a career change or a desk job or the airforce... i wouldnt want a bunch of sissys defending the country...


I am guessing you have no clue what the Air Force is currently involved in over in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's ok though, we serve so you can have the right to voice your opinion.

And to call anyone a sissy if they can't handle the recoil of a .45 ACP? Bold statement. I would venture to say anyone, in any branch of the service is very far from being a sissy.

Like I said, voice your opinion, it is your right, no matter how wrong it is. It just really pisses me off when comments about the military like yours are made. Go visit a recruiter, join the Air Force and request your career field be a 2T1, when you are riding a gun truck in Iraq for 8+ months dodging bullets, IED's, and insurgents maybe your opinion of the service will change.


sorry you took it wrong... i should have put the dancing banana or the lol smiley after the statement...

im an airforce veteran and spent my four years working on mh-53 helicopters... we put in longer days, weeks, hours, then most people i know... i was just kinda poking fun at my office working friends types (contracting, base paper, computer techs, that sort of thing) that sat in an office from 9-5 with an hour lunch and an hour to go work out in the middle of the day...

but once again i do apologize if you took it wrong... :thumbsup:
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Postby Penguine » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:54 pm

I believe the guy you spoke to that said he took a .50 cal round to the chest and it was stopped by a Kevlar vest is full of crap. The .50 cal will shoot through an engine block, can disable vehicles, the SAPI plate in the Kevlar vest is designed to stop 1, maybe 2, rounds from an AK or similiar weapon used by the bad guy.

Here is a quote from CBS news, and why I would raise the BS flag to the person claiming to have taken a .50 cal round to the chest.

"But New York City’s Police Commissioner Ray Kelly says the .50-caliber rifle is in a class by itself. He agreed to show 60 Minutes just how powerful the .50 caliber is.

First, a police sharpshooter fired the NYPD’s own .30 caliber sniper rifle at a steel target. Downrange, three football fields away, the three shots from the .30 caliber rifle bounced off the half-inch thick steel.

"You can see it hasn’t penetrated it," says Kelly.

Then the sharpshooter fired three rounds from a Barrett .50-caliber rifle at the same target.

"Went right through," says Kelly. "It is clearly a weapon of war, a round to be used in a wartime situation. It’s appropriate for the military. The effective range is about 2,000 yards. It’s a very formidable weapon."

In other words, if the NYPD’s range had been 20 football fields long, instead of three, the .50-caliber rifle – firing ordinary ammunition -- still would have been devastatingly effective.


Level IV body armor plates (Small Arms Protecive Inserts - SAPI) are designed to stop the following:

7.62 × 54mm lead core ball ammunition, Dragunov Sniper Rifle at 0 meters
7.62 × 54mm AP, Dragunov Sniper Rifle at 0 meters
7.62 × 51mm NATO ball ammunition at 0 meters
7.62 × 51mm AP M-61 at 0 meters
7.62 × 51mm Swiss Munitions AP (WC Core) at 0 meters
7.62 × 39mm mild steel core, AK-47 at 0 meters
7.62 × 63mm AP at 0 meters
5.56 × 45mm SS109/M855 at 0 meters
5.56 × 45mm M193 ball at 0 meters
5.45 × 39mm Russian ball at 0 meters
12 gauge slug at 0 meters

I don't see the .50 cal listed.
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Postby Gooseboy » Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:00 am

Maybe the guy was full of it then. I didnt think so because i was like uhh what a .50 would have gone through you with enough energy to do it again.

Ive been told im gullible soooo.. :yes:

But yea i always thought barret .50s were neat. In the militarys hands though.
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Postby casey_714 » Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:34 pm

Penguine wrote:I am guessing you have no clue what the Air Force is currently involved in over in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's ok though, we serve so you can have the right to voice your opinion.


jjohnson_714 wrote:im an airforce veteran and spent my four years working on mh-53 helicopters...


:laughing: Nice Penguine
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new military pistols and rifles

Postby stumpjumper » Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:52 pm

I can tell you this, every branch of service has it`s own warriors. To think the Air Force does nothing but drop bombs from high above is crazy. Bet you`ve never heard of combat controlers then. I`ve had the pleasure of working with them and they are as hard core as any.

As for new pistols, they need to go back to the 45 cal. When you are using a pistol it is in close courters. You aim center mass. The 9mm doesn`t have the knock down power nessasary to put them down and that`s what you want. It doesn`t have to be pretty. Also remeber that not every soldier is issued a side arm. Only those that will more than likly need it. As for the rifle, they will stay with a round used by NATO. I don`t know why the 5.56 gets such a bad rap. It does the job!

I guess people watch to many movies and think that the Hollywood depiction defines what the military is.
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Postby bgoldhunter » Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:29 pm

Uhh, first, the military approved the Sig 226 when it approved the Beretta. The Beretta, however, is standard issue. It looks like if a HK product is to be used, it will not be the USP, but the newly released model, whose name escapes me at the moment. Brad Vickers had much to do with the development of that model, and it does look like a nice one, even though I have not even held one yet. I do like .45 ACP, though...

The guy who got shot with the 50 cal is full of it. He would be a little stain in the sand if he were shot with one. There are many nice 50 cals out there that I would get before the Barrett.

And please, if you like guns, refrain from saying it is only fine in the hands of the military...I think we have all tried to explain this before to you.
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Postby TARHEEL3ID » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:49 am

Gooseboy wrote:Yea thats true. I guess the pistols i listed with .45

But still i believe in shot placement. A shot with a 9mm to the head is better than a shot of a .45 to the shoulder.

Im really starting to like the HK USP man thats a nice gun.

Ive heard complaints about the .223 so maybe our new rifle should be the .243?


The .223 will probibly not be replaced. It was designed as a round more or less to wound the enemyu and not kill. The bullet tumbles like alot of other small arms, but at the velocity at which it shoots it has a tendency to pass thru instead of bouncing. The theory behind it is if you kill an enemy thats 1 less person, if you wound one, you take the one who is shot and at least one other to move him out of the fight
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Postby Penguine » Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:30 am

bgoldhunter wrote:And please, if you like guns, refrain from saying it is only fine in the hands of the military...I think we have all tried to explain this before to you.


If you are referring to my post you would notice that I was quoting a NYC Polic Commissioner and that my quote came from CBS.com. So anyway...
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Postby Gooseboy » Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:14 pm

bgoldhunter wrote:Uhh, first, the military approved the Sig 226 when it approved the Beretta. The Beretta, however, is standard issue. It looks like if a HK product is to be used, it will not be the USP, but the newly released model, whose name escapes me at the moment. Brad Vickers had much to do with the development of that model, and it does look like a nice one, even though I have not even held one yet. I do like .45 ACP, though...

The guy who got shot with the 50 cal is full of it. He would be a little stain in the sand if he were shot with one. There are many nice 50 cals out there that I would get before the Barrett.

And please, if you like guns, refrain from saying it is only fine in the hands of the military...I think we have all tried to explain this before to you.


Why do you even bring that up i havnt said anything i started this topic not questioned it.

Im guessing the HK P2000? If so thats a 9mm.
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