Handgun in Bars?

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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:25 am

I agree.... and just joking around here :yes: However, imagine every patron not knowing who's packing and who's not :eek: I do believe in one respect it would deter one from starting any trouble, but then again it takes a sober mind to examine that. I thinks it would be crazy to allow guns in bars, there is enough "sober" people out of the bars , misusing 'em.
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:38 am

ajmorell wrote:
swampbilly 1980 wrote:Wouldn't carrying in a bar eliminate alot of fighting that takes place?... :hammer: :beer:


Possibly, but one could argue that it would only make them worse. I know a lot of idiots that would use a gun in that situation if they were carrying one and would probably end up killing someone.
I agree and Just joking around here :yes: However, one would think that the idea of patrons not knowing who's packing would be a deterent from starting any trouble, But then again, it takes a sober mind to examine that. I personally think it would be crazy to allow this in bars, there are enough sober people misusing handguns out there :no:
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby ALMODUX » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:14 pm

Well, the kicker is that anyone who is going into a bar to specifically cause trouble or rob it, is not worried about the gun laws, but he knows that it's unlikely any of the patrons will be armed. That's the BIGGEST problem with a 'law' against any 2nd amendment issue: it disarms law abidign citizens and gives thugs a soft spot or green light. :biggrin:
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby ajmorell » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:03 am

ALMODUX wrote:Well, the kicker is that anyone who is going into a bar to specifically cause trouble or rob it, is not worried about the gun laws, but he knows that it's unlikely any of the patrons will be armed. That's the BIGGEST problem with a 'law' against any 2nd amendment issue: it disarms law abidign citizens and gives thugs a soft spot or green light. :biggrin:


True, but realistically who the hell goes in and robs a bar? :huh:
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:31 am

ajmorell wrote:
ALMODUX wrote:Well, the kicker is that anyone who is going into a bar to specifically cause trouble or rob it, is not worried about the gun laws, but he knows that it's unlikely any of the patrons will be armed. That's the BIGGEST problem with a 'law' against any 2nd amendment issue: it disarms law abidign citizens and gives thugs a soft spot or green light. :biggrin:


True, but realistically who the hell goes in and robs a bar? :huh:
....An already drunk guy who mistakes the bar for the bank :yes: :hammer: :hammer:
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:55 pm

Generally people do not go to bars to Start trouble, The trouble starts because 2 buzzed people bump into one another and neither has the sense to realize that the can not walk straight. words are exchanged then comes the pushing and punches are thrown, one guy starts getting his ass beat and comes up with a gun tossing rounds and kills several inocent people. That is why we have laws that lower the probability of this happening and I like it....you can Scream "rights" all you want but I still have to agree with intellegent laws. The Law says that I can open carry my gun most anywhere and anytime I want but the law also says that if I conceal the same gun I am now in violation of a fellony if I do not have a proper permit to carry it hidden. I do believe in 2nd amendment as an individual right to bear arms. I just can not disagree with keeping them out of places where the primary business in booze.
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby ALMODUX » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:01 pm

waterfowlhunter wrote:.... I do believe in 2nd amendment as an individual right to bear arms. But you just have that right under certain conditions, locations, and circumstances as dictated by the government/law?

I just can not disagree with keeping them out of places where the primary business in booze.



Don't carry yours. It's up to you. Nobody is saying it's 'smart' to guzzle and gun. Again, just because you know someone might yell 'fire' when drunk, does not mean we cut their tongue out before they go in a bar. Rights are RIGHTS. :biggrin:
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:18 pm

ALMODUX wrote:Again, just because you know someone might yell 'fire' when drunk, does not mean we cut their tongue out before they go in a bar.


What you fail to understand is that yelling "Fire" is not the same as some drunk killing several people, At least where I come from it is not....Not even a sensable comparison IMO.
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby ALMODUX » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:56 pm

Actually, what I do understand is that maybe you're choosing to ignore the prescience of the comparison? Yelling fire in a crowded bar, theater, club, etc. might kill way more people than one drunk with a gun. I'm not sure (specifics) of how you could possibly think it's not an apt comparison? As you cannot compare a right (such as speech, press, bearing arms, etc.) to a regulated act or privelege, then no other comparisons apply....but those referring to other rights. :biggrin:
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:26 pm

:huh:
Again we will just disagree on the issue. Here in MI free speech is not completely free. They ticked a guy and fined him for cursing in public he claimed "free speech" but the law said that profanity is not legal near women and children (a law that I wish would be enforced a lot more often) I did not follow the case but it had all of the free speech people fired up. :yes: They claimed that that law was written a long time ago and should not be enforced.

This should have been posted in the controversal issues forum. then I would have never read it and would not be involved in this meeningless thread....as it is going no where and acomplishing nothing at all so I give up, YOU WIN :lol: .
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby ALMODUX » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:28 pm

:hammer: :lol3: There IS NO CONTROVERSY. The constitution is what it is. I don't hold an opinion that regulating the right as opposed to the bad act is appropriate with firearms. Just as with free speech and profanity in front of children-- (which is an ACT of disturbing the peace or vulgarity, depending on your locale)--- the mere use of or possible abuse of speech, etc., is not itself regulated.....with the 2nd, you can't shoot at someone's feet, 'menace' someone, or otherwise endanger through use...but the hammer itself is not the issue. The difference (I believe and am trying to press) is that our opinions of what is/is not prudent do not govern the constitution OR the rights of other free men....merely their conduct towards others. :biggrin: I'm merely viewing this as an airing of perspectives. I'll actually think that I don't want a bunch of drunks in bars with guns, so you could extrapolate that my opinion runs as yours: It should not be legal. However, I have opinions about other things that I think should be illegal, too...that aren't: fat people in spandex, men holding hands in public, non-trailer-backing fools at boat ramps, skybusters, and Auburn fans....but some obviously don't care about my opinion on those, either. :hi:
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby Sagebrush » Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:27 pm

I did not say anything about the 2nd.................

You can vote to have a non-smoking businees and a place to eat...............like here in Nevada.

You can also have a "No Guns Allowed" business but that does not mean that people will follow the request...........

Open,concealled, with or with out a permit to carry, lots of loop holes out there , just depends on the State and county that you live in.

If you carry in Nevada, you might want to read up a little.
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby RebelYell » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:14 pm

ALMODUX wrote:Ummm, the 2nd amendment IS your concealed carry permit. It applies whether you are drunk, sober, at home, or Joe Bob's roadhouse...UNTIL you break the law. Now, I realize that this is not what a bunch of laws state, and that these same laws also attempt to restrict where a person has a right under the 2nd. It's a fallacy on top of a fallacy, is all I'm saying. If you are dumb enough to drink until impaired while carrying a firearm, you'll probably shoot your own foot off before someone else's, but it's none of the government's business if you do...IMHO. :biggrin:


you haven't read the 2nd amendment have you?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Are you part of a well regulated militia? That is the reason behind the amendment..yes it does open the right to bear arms up to the public but it explicitly says the reason it does so is to allow for a regulated militia. The amendment also provides for protection against foreign invaders and protection against excessive governmental control (in securing a free state). I don't think that any of these issues are a problem at your local watering hole. If you feel that you might be in danger outside of the bar just go straight to your car and grab that pistol. I don't have the slightest idea why you would even go to a bar that you would feel threatened enough to have your pistol.

Where it the statute does it say that you are allowed to conceal your weapon? I just see "bear arms"...I guess maybe my intuitive reading missed "conceal your sidearm under your jacket". What about the rules against carrying a sawed off shotgun or automatic weapons? Are those silly? Are the laws barring such weapons unconstitutional under the 2nd?

Also, do you think its silly that people cannot bring fire arms into federal buildings such as post offices and courtrooms? Do you think that if you cruise on up to Washington DC and tour the White House you ought to be allowed to bring your gun? What if those "dangerous" criminals at your bar want to go up to the White House? Should they be allowed to bring their guns? What is the difference between the two of you?

Gun laws, such as this one, aren't designed to hamper the rights of the responsible firearms owner, but rather protect their rights while at the same time keeping the people that are a danger at bay. I dare say that no one is worried about you going into a bar and getting drunk enough to start shooting, but what about gangs in New York going to bars with firearms? No it may not stop them, but it gives the police a right to arrest them if they do catch them. Thoughts?
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:02 pm

RebelYell wrote:
ALMODUX wrote:Ummm, the 2nd amendment IS your concealed carry permit. It applies whether you are drunk, sober, at home, or Joe Bob's roadhouse...UNTIL you break the law. Now, I realize that this is not what a bunch of laws state, and that these same laws also attempt to restrict where a person has a right under the 2nd. It's a fallacy on top of a fallacy, is all I'm saying. If you are dumb enough to drink until impaired while carrying a firearm, you'll probably shoot your own foot off before someone else's, but it's none of the government's business if you do...IMHO. :biggrin:


you haven't read the 2nd amendment have you?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Are you part of a well regulated militia? That is the reason behind the amendment..yes it does open the right to bear arms up to the public but it explicitly says the reason it does so is to allow for a regulated militia. The amendment also provides for protection against foreign invaders and protection against excessive governmental control (in securing a free state). I don't think that any of these issues are a problem at your local watering hole. If you feel that you might be in danger outside of the bar just go straight to your car and grab that pistol. I don't have the slightest idea why you would even go to a bar that you would feel threatened enough to have your pistol.

Where it the statute does it say that you are allowed to conceal your weapon? I just see "bear arms"...I guess maybe my intuitive reading missed "conceal your sidearm under your jacket". What about the rules against carrying a sawed off shotgun or automatic weapons? Are those silly? Are the laws barring such weapons unconstitutional under the 2nd?

Also, do you think its silly that people cannot bring fire arms into federal buildings such as post offices and courtrooms? Do you think that if you cruise on up to Washington DC and tour the White House you ought to be allowed to bring your gun? What if those "dangerous" criminals at your bar want to go up to the White House? Should they be allowed to bring their guns? What is the difference between the two of you?

Gun laws, such as this one, aren't designed to hamper the rights of the responsible firearms owner, but rather protect their rights while at the same time keeping the people that are a danger at bay. I dare say that no one is worried about you going into a bar and getting drunk enough to start shooting, but what about gangs in New York going to bars with firearms? No it may not stop them, but it gives the police a right to arrest them if they do catch them. Thoughts?



EXACTLY, But I think you are wasting your time trying to talk sensibly to him. I gave up but may be you can get thru the webs... :clapping:
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby apexhunter » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:51 pm

Since my original reply to this some 7 weeks ago this has turned into an interesting debate. Both sides have valid points and at the same time both sides could be construed as fundamentally wrong.

One point to consider on the topic is the prohibited carrying (concealed, open or otherwise) of weapons on any school property. If you compare that to no carry in bars laws are we then unable to fulfill a constitutional right by being prohibited to carry into a school to pick up our kid, watch a basketball game or visit for a teacher/parent conference? The institutions are different- one to exercise one's brain cells and the other to kill off "weak or unused" brain cells (to paraphrase Cliff Claven's arguement about beer making one smarter), but the premise is the same. One side says our constitutional right is to carry wherever we want and the other side says we must abide by the regulations of the State that dictate places we cannot carry.

I believe both sides here are totally pro 2nd amendment as I've never met a sportsman, hunter or shooting enthusiast that wasn't, but within all of our constitutional rights there are some laws and regulations dictating certain aspects of those rights.
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby ALMODUX » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:07 pm

RebelYellJo wrote:you haven't read the 2nd amendment have you? Sure I have. The difference is that I conprehend what it says, what it doesn't, and what the punctuation means/does not mean. Try going over that with someone that get's the commas and such. The light might go on.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Are you part of a well regulated militia? As to original intent, yes...and so are you.That is the reason behind the amendment..yes it does open the right to bear arms up to the public but it explicitly says the reason it does so is to allow for a regulated militia. No it doesn't. It states a right to bear arms in the same sentence as the rcognition for a militia...neither of which is prhibitive of or exclusive to the other.The amendment also provides for protection against foreign invaders and protection against excessive governmental control (in securing a free state). I don't think that any of these issues are a problem at your local watering hole. If you feel that you might be in danger outside of the bar just go straight to your car and grab that pistol. I don't have the slightest idea why you would even go to a bar that you would feel threatened enough to have your pistol. Those last three sentences, I've not had a problem with, wither. However, just because you (as an individual) tend to hold an opinion that many others may hold as well, it gives no empowerment to utilize that opinion to void a constitutional right for another, sensible or not. Even though I might think blue-belly tree frog worshippers are nuts, and that they'll hurt themselves by licking frogs and walking into trees or something, I can't use my opinon of the mere fact that they MIGHT do something intrude upon their right to have that religion and worship as they choose. Once they get high, play in traffic, and get someeone killed, then you charge them with the offense.

Where it the statute does it say that you are allowed to conceal your weapon? I just see "bear arms"...I guess maybe my intuitive reading missed "conceal your sidearm under your jacket".Where does it say you can worship bluebelly tree frogs? It doesn't have to specify OR restrict in language, it's a blanket statement. 'bear' them however you like. The 2nd gives you that. What about the rules against carrying a sawed off shotgun or automatic weapons? Are those silly? Are the laws barring such weapons unconstitutional under the 2nd? Possibly so, but precedents are hard to remove. It's another form of whittling away. What appears 'sensible' h is like good intentions: they can both lead to mor harm than good.

Also, do you think its silly that people cannot bring fire arms into federal buildings such as post offices and courtrooms? Do you think that if you cruise on up to Washington DC and tour the White House you ought to be allowed to bring your gun? What if those "dangerous" criminals at your bar want to go up to the White House? Should they be allowed to bring their guns? What is the difference between the two of you? Huh? Again, you miss the point: The owner of the bar can require whatever he wants. It's his property. Security/ feds can make any law they want regarding their regulated property, as well. However, there is no empowerment for the federal government to pass a restriction of the 2nd amendment on private property.

Gun laws, such as this one, aren't designed to hamper the rights of the responsible firearms owner, but rather protect their rights while at the same time keeping the people that are a danger at bay. I dare say that no one is worried about you going into a bar and getting drunk enough to start shooting, but what about gangs in New York going to bars with firearms? No it may not stop them, but it gives the police a right to arrest them if they do catch them. Thoughts?


Lets examine that entire premise: Gang member (likely a convicted felon already), carrying a handgun in New York City (already guilty of a crime), who is worried about getting drunk in a bar and the cops catching him in said bar in violation of the ‘no guns in bars’ rule? That’s a prime example of the absurdity of most of these laws. The people that would ever break them already broke six more along the way and should have been behind bars or taking adirt nap way back. Instead, we pass another unnecessary law that those it’s really meant for will never pay attention to , and that only further criminalizes potential honest behavior by otherwise law abiding citizens. Everyone has the right to decide what’s sensible in their own house. They also have the right to be told to shove it when their sensibilities intrude upon the rights of others.

Laws are different everywhere you go. I’m not saying that getting drunk with a gun is in any way sensible, either…though you have tried to paint that picture….won’t fly. The preamble says that there are certain inalienable rights. What you deem sensible and what some think should be a law has no weight to interfere with another’s self preservation while having a beer with dinner and someone in the bar across the room starts shooting up the place. Say what you want, pass what you want, but that individual has the right to be armed to protect him/herself and their family from whatever eventuality, in whatever setting. Nearly every decent restaurant I know of around here has a ‘bar’. I guess I need to leave my gun under my napkin if I belly up, huh?
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Re: Handgun in Bars?

Postby MOwaterfowler » Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:47 pm

welp under that reason the gene pool would be better off as only peace loving genes would survive.

it's not the man who carries peaceable that is trouble it is the one who carries for a first strike.

if i had to chose between a bar that allowed guns or one that didn't i would go to the one that allowed.

i also chose the smoking bars over non smokeing.

better people seem to go there. granted ratty arse bars are ratty arse bars regardless.
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