Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

A forum to discuss home defense and personal defense to keep out crime.

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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby rivercountry » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:37 am

I can agree with you that the average person would proably handle the recoil of a 2/34 shell better. There still is not alot of difference in our opinion except shot size and shell lenght. I am not a arm chair expert as you would say, the OP ask for an opinion and I gave mine as did you. I repect yours and think both methods would obtain the results deisred by anyone defending their home or family.
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby tornadochaser » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:58 am

dsm16428 wrote: A high brass 1 1/4 ounce load of #4s through a short barreled, cylinder choked shotgun is the most recommended combo for a shotgun in urban/built up situations. Recoil is very managable, you won't over penetrate interior walls and your chances of getting hits even down a fairly long hallway and then back on target goes way up. You armchair experts would make me laugh if you weren't so wrong it was scary.


Can you point to where you found that #4 birdshot is highly recommended? I've read FBI penetration tests, as well as other tests by various shooting organizations, for both sheet rock and ballistic medium, and to meet the recommended minimum penetration requirements (not even taking into consideration clothing such as denim) #1 or #2 birdshot is needed to barely get the proper penetration (even #1 loses significant penetration when passing through denim first). #6 bird shot will penetrate 2 layers of sheet rock (1 wall) when shot at a distance of less than 12 feet. So even if you are loading up with birdshot, you still risk pellets traveling into another room, and you lack sufficient penetration to ensure the pellets reach vital organs. There are numerous reports, accounts, and photos of close range bird shot encounters. Wounds are shallow and lack penetration. Especially chest shots where the pattern was centered on the ribs. I just listened to a radio show last night where a world renowned doctor who practices in FL talking about failed suicide attempts. He rattled off at least 3 instances where a victim failed to finish the job but was horribly scarred for life by putting a shotgun in their mouth.

The fact is, any load that is going to be reliable enough to 1-shot stop a threat is going to penetrate at least 1 wall. This is something you need to consider when deciding to use a shotgun for HD.
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby dsm16428 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:46 pm

A healthy dose of #4 shot at in the house ranges is going to turn an intruder to hamburger. I know this as I have winessed it first hand. When the pattern of 1 1/4 ounces of shot hits you center mass at say 25 feet, it's about the size of a soccer ball, maybe a basketball, depending on the choke and bbl length. That's roughly 166 pellets hitting you. Most of the center mass hits with that load I have seen were instant/almost instant fatalities, or almost instant and complete incapasitation, where the home owner reported 100% of the fight left the intruder virtually at once. With fine shot, sure you will still get SOME penetration through an interior wall, but the pellets carrying lethal energy past those two pieces of sheet rock is drastically reduced. Sheet rock IS NOT ballistic medium that is designed to distribute the energy of a projectile like the tissues of a human body. It's hard and brittle and powders on impact. As for folks trying to bite the big bazooka, that's all about them flinching due the hesitation on their part and the load passes out the side of the face/neck. If you have never seen a point blank shotgun wound to the head, and I suspect you haven't, it is something that'll give you nightmares. A 12 gauge loaded with even a trap load will turn your head into a canoe. Believe me when I tell you it isn't a pretty thing. It's like getting hit with a bang stick. The entrance isn't anything special, but everything after that is destroyed.
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby tornadochaser » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:41 am

I wouldn't doubt that most of the time bird shot will work, but there are enough published reports be LEO, military, and MD's showing lack of penetration to vital organs. Plenty of pictures on the web showing these gruesome shallow wounds as well. One of my best friends was a "major league door kicker" serving 3 tours in Iraq and 2 in Afghanistan, and currently works at a training facility working with a national police force in some hell hole country. Most of his entry work into buildings was done carrying a mossberg 500 while in the service. Not that I wanted gruesome details, but he explained matter of factly, that clothing, momentum, and drugs all can have adverse affects even on buckshot. If I have some whacked out meth head invade my house, I want to know I can stop threat effectively, at any range in my house. The longest line of sight in my house is 33-34 feet. I've shot plenty of roosters at 10-12 yards with #4 lead and can find plenty of pellets in the bird. Why would I want a load that can't completely penetrate a rooster at 12 yards for HD?
Now, anything is better than nothing, but I think anybody would agree, that one shouldn't just blindly select a load, they should research what the positives and negatives of the load are.
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby dsm16428 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:48 pm

Thing is, just like with game, it isn't always about the individual pellet. It's all those pellets hitting you all at once. per pellet energy goes out the window inside 10 yards. Your reply does actually brings up a good point TC. Drugs can seriously toughen up an intruder! Like turning a little 130 pound crack head into the hulk. I do have a box of the Ultimate Home Defense rounds in Hevi BB shot. Can imagine how that stuff would work in built up areas... Don't get me wrong either. I have done a lot of urban combat training and I trully APPRECIATE good ole' 00 buck and slugs! Take a swat from either at close range and it's generally night night time! I have seen lead rifled slugs take a man's arm right off and 00buck just smash a guy's head at 25 feet. Thing is, in combat, we also carried grenades...beats a shotgun all day long! :bow:
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby tornadochaser » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:35 am

dsm16428 wrote:Thing is, just like with game, it isn't always about the individual pellet. It's all those pellets hitting you all at once. per pellet energy goes out the window inside 10 yards. Your reply does actually brings up a good point TC. Drugs can seriously toughen up an intruder! Like turning a little 130 pound crack head into the hulk. I do have a box of the Ultimate Home Defense rounds in Hevi BB shot. Can imagine how that stuff would work in built up areas... Don't get me wrong either. I have done a lot of urban combat training and I trully APPRECIATE good ole' 00 buck and slugs! Take a swat from either at close range and it's generally night night time! I have seen lead rifled slugs take a man's arm right off and 00buck just smash a guy's head at 25 feet. Thing is, in combat, we also carried grenades...beats a shotgun all day long! :bow:


You mentioned grenades, which made me think of claymores for some reason...and that got me thinking...you don't see claymores loaded with birdshot.... :hi:
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby dsm16428 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:04 pm

Actually...yes they are! I can tell you that the projectiles in claymore mines are only something like 3.5 mm steel balls (about 700 of them and they are smaller than an air rifle BB) and they leave the face of the mine at around 4,000 fps. That's FOUR THOUSAND PEET PER SECOND!! :eek: Lethal to about 65-100 yards depending on the cover between you and the face of the mine and dangerous to 250 meters. I don't care what it is they're shooting...could be minature marsh mellows, if it's hittting you at around 4,000 fps...it's over. :bow:
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby rivercountry » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:36 pm

dsm16428 wrote:A healthy dose of #4 shot at in the house ranges is going to turn an intruder to hamburger. I know this as I have winessed it first hand. When the pattern of 1 1/4 ounces of shot hits you center mass at say 25 feet, it's about the size of a soccer ball, maybe a basketball, depending on the choke and bbl length. That's roughly 166 pellets hitting you. Most of the center mass hits with that load I have seen were instant/almost instant fatalities, or almost instant and complete incapasitation, where the home owner reported 100% of the fight left the intruder virtually at once. With fine shot, sure you will still get SOME penetration through an interior wall, but the pellets carrying lethal energy past those two pieces of sheet rock is drastically reduced. Sheet rock IS NOT ballistic medium that is designed to distribute the energy of a projectile like the tissues of a human body. It's hard and brittle and powders on impact. As for folks trying to bite the big bazooka, that's all about them flinching due the hesitation on their part and the load passes out the side of the face/neck. If you have never seen a point blank shotgun wound to the head, and I suspect you haven't, it is something that'll give you nightmares. A 12 gauge loaded with even a trap load will turn your head into a canoe. Believe me when I tell you it isn't a pretty thing. It's like getting hit with a bang stick. The entrance isn't anything special, but everything after that is destroyed.


I have seen several self inflicted GSW where a shot gun was used and only one survived and that was his fault. Shot placement is everything even with a shot gun although it does give a little more room for error. The opinion I gave in my earlier pot was from a 32 year veteran of a Full Time Swat Team in a major city who now teaches tactical operators now. Their team at the time had two trauma surgeons that responded to call outs as medics for the team. Both surgeons suggested and it was adopted by the team at the time they use 3 inch high brass loads during Dynamic entries only. The reason he gave was most gun fire exchanges inside of a residences are between 12 and 25 feet. You can imagine what a 2oz load will do to the human body at that distance and it reduces over penetration to other interior rooms. By using # 4 or 5 shot you deliver a very large amount of shrapnel and at that distance thousands of foot pounds of energy. You definitely wouldn’t want to use this method at great distance because you lose pattern density and penetration but for close quarters it would work well.
For the average homeowner 1 ¼ oz loads would be better as far as recoil and ease of additional follow up shots which hopefully want be need if there is proper shot placement the first time. But whether it’s a 2oz or 1 ¼ oz load you should be able to agree, that amount of lead at such a short distance coming to a complete and sudden stop in your chest would be completely devastating and death should soon follow.
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby RustyGunz1960 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:00 pm

Geeze, after reading this thread I can't help but wonder if perhaps some of you should simply consider moving to a safer area. I keep a loaded .38 at close reach in my bedroom, but I don't dwell on it. Some of you sound like you expect to be in the middle of an Alien vs Predator movie. One of my friends used to be big time into "end of the world" survivalist type preparation. You could just tell he was going to be dissapoined if it didn't happen.
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby rivercountry » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:13 pm

I was just passing along information that I had received from a tactical instructor as to how devastating certain shotgun loads can be at close range. Personally I just keep my 1911 in the nightstand everything else is in the safe.
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby Centralflyway » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:42 am

Many years ago I lived in a big metropolitan city in an apartment. I got robbed one day - probably by the apartment workers since there was no break in obvious. After that I started looking into getting a large dog. Of course, as a duck hunter, I wanted a dog that would hunt. I had a friend that was a goose guide I did taxidermy work for. He also trained dogs. He told me that really any dog could be trained to retrieve - ANY DOG. So, of course, I went straight out and bought a UKC American Pit Bull Terrier. I bought a blue one so she would better blend in while in the water. I sent her to him for 10 weeks when she was 3 months old. This was in 1999 and she is too old now to hunt, but she was a great retriever with a very soft mouth. The point here is this.......having a gun to protect your home is a good thing IF you are awake and hear the intruder enter. If not, he wakes you up from a deep sleep, you scramble for your pistol and if you actually get it, you may get lucky and get off a shot or two before the intruder hauls ass. Now I'm not suggesting that you should not have the gun, but if you have a dog, the dog hears it long before you will and the dog will wake you up. Example: I was going to cut firewood one day with a buddy of mine. When I got in his truck I realized I'd left my wallet in the house. I had moved into a condo I bought after the robbery at the apt. As I went into the house, I left the door open. As I went into my bedroom to get my wallet, my pit bull almost ran over me getting past me to the front door. When I went outside, she had chased a black guy up three flights of stairs and would not let him come down. My friend had seen all of this as it happened and called the popo. The guy made some lame ass excuse about going into the wrong apt., but he entered the unit and my friend saw it so he was arrested. Since the first time I was robbed, I have never been robbed again. Now none of my three dogs would bite anyone as long as I am there. Truth be told, they probably would not bite even if I was not hewe, but does a crook really want to try a pit bull, much less three pit bulls. The next house is easier in the end.

Bottom line....have all the guns you want, but unless you are holding one 24/7 you gotta sleep sometime and this is when crooks are about. I have an alarm on my house now. The alarm wakes the dog, the dog wakes me and I wake up the Baretta 12G 3 1/2" Mag !!! Ain't the Castle Law great? GET A GOOD DOG THAT SCARES THE CRAP OUT OF EVERYONE !!! But train it right. :thumbsup:
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby beretta24 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:11 pm

I agree with making sure you have the ability and means to defend yourself and loved ones; however, my priority is to escape and avoid confrontation. Your chances might be good against an intruder in your own home, but if you can escape and/or call the police and avoid a confrontation your chances are even better. Keeping a phonne handy and making sure your family is educated and practiced in the options of evacuating your home is very important.
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby dsm16428 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:36 pm

beretta24 wrote:I agree with making sure you have the ability and means to defend yourself and loved ones; however, my priority is to escape and avoid confrontation. Your chances might be good against an intruder in your own home, but if you can escape and/or call the police and avoid a confrontation your chances are even better. Keeping a phonne handy and making sure your family is educated and practiced in the options of evacuating your home is very important.


No doubt! I agree wholeheartedly. The thing is for many people is that when an intruder decides to enter your home, its usually at night and while you're in bed. Most bedrooms are upstairs with no route for egress from the room. My own br is on the second floor, right at the top of the stairs and an intruder is going to have me cut off from escaping as soon as he gets through the door. If you can escape, by all means do so! Unfortunately, most folks just can't...
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby carlschmarl2 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:45 am

I love all the people who advocate for using bird shot for HD.

Yet they are the first one's who have to use T-shot or BBB for goose hunting.

I'd love to see someone shoot and KILL a deer with bird shot. A deer's hide isn't as thick a good jacket, so if your pellets can't penetrate a hide, what makes you think they'll penetrate into a BG's CNS?!
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby foldinducks » Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:38 pm

oo buck.....because the only story being told is mine.
it didnt smell like that when i ate it
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby dsm16428 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:08 am

carlschmarl2 wrote:I love all the people who advocate for using bird shot for HD.

Yet they are the first one's who have to use T-shot or BBB for goose hunting.

I'd love to see someone shoot and KILL a deer with bird shot. A deer's hide isn't as thick a good jacket, so if your pellets can't penetrate a hide, what makes you think they'll penetrate into a BG's CNS?!


Ever been shot with bird shot?! Ever see what happens when some idiot mistakes a man for a turkey in the spring woods? Even number 4 shot is lethal at up to 40 yards, the document hunting accident deaths prove this. Having actually SEEN first hand what the stuff can and will do to the human body at close, in-the-home ranges, I can tell you, you have no idea what the heck you're talking about. I have also seen what a high-brass load of #4s will do to a deer inside 15 yards...dead deer and a deer's hide is a lot tougher than you think it is...a lot tougher than a down or denim jacket. Again, imagine getting hit 1 1/4 ounces of #4 or #2 shot with a pattern the size of at most a basketball and I promise you, you won't think bird shot can kill a man because you'll likely be in a body bag. As for using T shot and BBB for goose? Though I normally use 1's through BB, you bet your ass I've used both for geese! I respect the game I hunt too much to use a shot size too small to kill them efficiently.
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby carlschmarl2 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:10 am

dsm16428 wrote:
carlschmarl2 wrote:I love all the people who advocate for using bird shot for HD.

Yet they are the first one's who have to use T-shot or BBB for goose hunting.

I'd love to see someone shoot and KILL a deer with bird shot. A deer's hide isn't as thick a good jacket, so if your pellets can't penetrate a hide, what makes you think they'll penetrate into a BG's CNS?!


Ever been shot with bird shot?! Ever see what happens when some idiot mistakes a man for a turkey in the spring woods? Even number 4 shot is lethal at up to 40 yards, the document hunting accident deaths prove this. Having actually SEEN first hand what the stuff can and will do to the human body at close, in-the-home ranges, I can tell you, you have no idea what the heck you're talking about. I have also seen what a high-brass load of #4s will do to a deer inside 15 yards...dead deer and a deer's hide is a lot tougher than you think it is...a lot tougher than a down or denim jacket. Again, imagine getting hit 1 1/4 ounces of #4 or #2 shot with a pattern the size of at most a basketball and I promise you, you won't think bird shot can kill a man because you'll likely be in a body bag. As for using T shot and BBB for goose? Though I normally use 1's through BB, you bet your ass I've used both for geese! I respect the game I hunt too much to use a shot size too small to kill them efficiently.


In the litigious society then today, why aren't LEO's and the Military using bird shot and/or turkey loads?

Why is penetration based off the FBI Standard rather than a deer hide.
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby dsm16428 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:25 am

You know what? Never mind. Don't take the word of someone with real world experience. I don't care. You do you and We'll just have to agree to disagree...
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Re: Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby huntall6 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:56 pm

carlschmarl2 wrote:
dsm16428 wrote:
carlschmarl2 wrote:I love all the people who advocate for using bird shot for HD.

Yet they are the first one's who have to use T-shot or BBB for goose hunting.

I'd love to see someone shoot and KILL a deer with bird shot. A deer's hide isn't as thick a good jacket, so if your pellets can't penetrate a hide, what makes you think they'll penetrate into a BG's CNS?!


Ever been shot with bird shot?! Ever see what happens when some idiot mistakes a man for a turkey in the spring woods? Even number 4 shot is lethal at up to 40 yards, the document hunting accident deaths prove this. Having actually SEEN first hand what the stuff can and will do to the human body at close, in-the-home ranges, I can tell you, you have no idea what the heck you're talking about. I have also seen what a high-brass load of #4s will do to a deer inside 15 yards...dead deer and a deer's hide is a lot tougher than you think it is...a lot tougher than a down or denim jacket. Again, imagine getting hit 1 1/4 ounces of #4 or #2 shot with a pattern the size of at most a basketball and I promise you, you won't think bird shot can kill a man because you'll likely be in a body bag. As for using T shot and BBB for goose? Though I normally use 1's through BB, you bet your ass I've used both for geese! I respect the game I hunt too much to use a shot size too small to kill them efficiently.


In the litigious society then today, why aren't LEO's and the Military using bird shot and/or turkey loads?

Why is penetration based off the FBI Standard rather than a deer hide.


Go shoot dove shot at anything within 10ft. A small tree lets say. Look at the damage then try to defend your position. I done care if you are using 12 shot. If you have an ounce of it traveling at 1200fps its more like a slug than shot.

I shot a 55gal drum from about 5 yards with a 7/8oz dove load and it went through both sides. Entry hole was about the size of a baseball, exit was the size of a softball. Tell me that isn't lethal.
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby jessygames » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:28 am

I do not have a gun but my house is equipped with all kinds of security systems. A bit costly but they help me sleep better at night.
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby whaknstak » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:45 am

jessygames wrote:I do not have a gun but my house is equipped with all kinds of security systems. A bit costly but they help me sleep better at night.


Don't fall for the false security. When someone kicks your door, the only thing you can count on to save your life is a firearm. Not loud noise, flashing lights, or the police. If a determined person wants to harm you, they will unless you stop them.

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby shamel92 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:03 pm

just found a new company in walnut cove NC, went to see what they did and was pleasantly surprised. Thought it was a joke when I first saw it, but they are truly professional. each of their instructors were professional and courteous and answered any and all my questions. website name is below, ya'll should check it out!!!
http://www.apexsecuritygroup.org/
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Re: Home Defense/Invasion Preparation

Postby redleggs » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:44 am

I live in a rural area. I have a safe full of guns. I kept them locked in it until this last spring when my wife and I were subjected to an arson and home invasion. I had to fight the guy off in my house while my wife's car and the house were on fire and wife was trapped in third level of the house. Intruder was hopped up on meth and luckily unarmed. A baseball bat I keep by each door was the tool I used to subdue him. I now have a loaded gun on every level of the house and the wife knows how to use them. Also we have emergency numbers in contact list under A- sheriff, A-fire. We still keep baseball bats in strategic locations. We also have. Blocked exit escape routes mapped out. We also barricade the ground entrance with a two by four between the garage door rails. This door was p. o.e.for the arsonist. He simply kicked the door frame in.
Also make sure your smoke alarms and CO alarms are in working order. I have lived here for almost thirty years. One event can change every little bump in the night to a PTSD attack. So plan ahead!
Yes, we survived. I apprehended the prick and he awaits trial. Ended up having over 30 k damage to house and had to fight the insurance company more than the intruder. ( another story) If the sherif had not arrived when they did I would have finished the job with the baseball bat. Way it was I got my licks in anyway !!!! Next time though it will be a .380 or 12 gauge or AR wacking!!!!!
No matter where you live the aftermath of drug abuse and or mental illness will eventually reach out and touch you or some of your loved ones - so plan ahead and practice so your response is both conscious and subconscious.
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