Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

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Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby TopWop » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:12 pm

I have been debating with a few people on the advancement of
today's muzzle loaders. Should they still get special season's? Should there
be some kind of "old timey" restrictions? I don't think that today's equipment
was built in the spirit of traditional muzzle loading. It's awesome and amazing
the distance and accuracy they are getting. Electric ignition, powder pellets
etc.

I have an old .45 Kentucky rifle, it's fun to shoot. May try it turkey
hunting this year. I can see both sides of the debate. I tend to favor
the traditionalists.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby ajmorell » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:31 am

TopWop wrote:I have been debating with a few people on the advancement of
today's muzzle loaders. Should they still get special season's? Should there
be some kind of "old timey" restrictions? I don't think that today's equipment
was built in the spirit of traditional muzzle loading. It's awesome and amazing
the distance and accuracy they are getting. Electric ignition, powder pellets
etc.

I have an old .45 Kentucky rifle, it's fun to shoot. May try it turkey
hunting this year. I can see both sides of the debate. I tend to favor
the traditionalists.


In some regards the newer inline muzzleloaders almost defeat the purpose. The only thing they have in common with their predecessors is they are basically single shot only, although probably quicker to reload. The accuracy on these things rivals many centerfire rifles, google "ultimate muzzleloader"....I read recently of a guide in NM who claimed he had a client make a kill at over 500 yards with one....
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby TopWop » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:03 pm

So, do you think that is still considered a "primitive" weapon?
Should some restrictions be made for Muzzle loading season?
Some of the traditionalists kinda think their toes are being
stepped on because their quiet little season has drawn a lot
more people into the woods. People that wouldn't be out there
without the technology on newer firearms. I know that here in
Montana, I can't use sabots to hunt with. That's about the only
restriction I know of.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby Sagebrush » Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:19 pm

The new advanced mini ball and plastic sabot, plus the powder pellets have cut down the time of reloading
but they are still a single shot and must use iron sights to be legal in my state of Nevada, to be able to draw a tag.
( 45 cal or larger, no pistols )

Once you pull the trigger it is a done deal................very seldom will a 2nd shot produce meat unless the bullet hit the target on the 1st try and hopefully in the vitals.

With some powders, you don't even get to see the bullet hit with all the white smoke,if the wind is wrong,just the strike of the bullet,may be heard.

I would say that they are about as far as they can go with the primer,powder and bullet designs,for this style of hunting but
you never know if someone will dream up something new and improved.

True they have come a long way in improvements but B/P is not a 100% deal in the field as yet...........til they master,
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Last edited by Sagebrush on Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby TopWop » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:05 pm

OK I'll play Devils Advocate here. A lot of places Native Americans are allowed
to harvest fish because of tradition. It raises hell with the locals because they
take a lot of trophy fish and sell what they catch commercially. Some of the
big arguements are that to be traditional you can't use alum. jet boats and
1 mil candle power lights etc. use a spear, sinew net or what have you.

These special seasons for muzzle loading were made in the spirit of
primitive weapons. You say that you still only get one shot. OK then let
me use a single shot center fire. Hell,now they even have electric ignition.
Not even a primer! I shoot my old .45 Kentucky, for fun so far.
I've shot some of the newest "muzzle loaders" they aren't even in the same class.

I guess I was looking for arguments for or against. I can see both sides.
Some may say that anything that makes a weapon more accurate/humane
is better and more ethical. Some may say that the spirit in which the season
was created has been circumvented by technology and should be addressed.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby Duplex lover » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:14 pm

I think in MT 45 cal is as small as you can go, Shot gun is the same way in a restricted area you can't use sabots and pistols have to be traditional pistol loads and strait wall.
I'm kind of leaning toward the idea you should have to be more on the Traditional side if you want a special season. Just My two cents.
Did you know you need a special permit to use a speer to hunt with for big game? strange...
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby clampdaddy » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:11 pm

I think that it has gone to far. To my thinking a muzzle loader being used during a special muzzle loader season should use loose powder, no plastic sabots, and be equipped with iron sights only.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby apexhunter » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:48 pm

clampdaddy wrote:I think that it has gone to far. To my thinking a muzzle loader being used during a special muzzle loader season should use loose powder, no plastic sabots, and be equipped with iron sights only.


Some states do have restrictions like this as they deem their primitive weapon season to be one where truly primitive weapons are used. I've hunted with a scoped inline using maxi balls and pellet form powder but with the more modern improvements in the guns, improved projectiles and smokeless powder they are verging on losing the primitive moniker.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby TopWop » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:41 pm

Here are Montana's regs for Deer,Elk,Antelope
• Muzzleloader
- must not be capable of being loaded
from the breech of the barrel;
- may not be loaded with any preprepared
paper or metallic cartridges;
- must be charged with black powder,
pyrodex, or an equivalent;
- must be ignited by a percussion,
flintlock, matchlock, or wheelock
mechanism;
- must be a minimum of .45 caliber;
- may have no more than two barrels;
and
- must only use plain lead projectiles, not
sabots or similar projectiles.

I don't think the new electric ignition systems meet those requirements.
I went to the range today with my Uncle and we were shooting our traditional
muzzle loaders. The only mods to our guns were adapters to 209 primers.
I was shooting .45 balls and my uncle was shooting .50 power belts.
We had a lot of fun. The guy next to us was shooting in-line with pellets and
a scope. He definitely got more rounds down range. I think we had more fun.
Who knows.

I just think it's an interesting debate and would like to hear more input
as I am very new to muzzle loading.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby Preacher1011 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:01 pm

I don't care if people use inline muzzloaders as long as they use iron sights. I have an inline and refuse to put a scope on it. An inline with a scope is pretty much the same thing as a single shot rifle. I also have a Hawken rifle. I enjoy shooting it much more than my inline, and didn't even shoot my inline last year.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby mw46 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:32 pm

TopWop wrote:. You say that you still only get one shot. OK then let
me use a single shot center fire.



That is essentially what MS allows for our primitive weapon season. There are caliber restrictions (must be over 35 cal) and were (are?) restrictions on gun designs, they had to be based on designs patented before a certain date. I think they may have done away with that law, just as well IMO. Some time ago,back when real muzzleloaders were still required, scopes couldnt be over 1x magnification either, but now anything goes. I just use the same rifle during all seasons, I personally dont even see a need for "primitive weapon" season, at least where Im at in the country
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby dakotashooter2 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:20 am

Primitive wapons seasons were originally separated out for several of the following reasons and probably a few more.
Primitive weapons allowed a large amount of recreational hours with minimal harvest/impact.
Primitive weapons/seasons helped spread out the hunting pressure giving users more opportinity to be successful
Primitive weapons could be used with an increase in safety over high power rifles) in more populated areas due to limited range

Modern inline rifles being more accurate, having extended ranges, and being faster to reload negate 2 of the 3 reasons listed above. Most modern MLs are on par with a single shot, 30-30, 45-70 or other low velocity rifle cartridges and many in effect use nothing more than a caseless cartridge.

Modern muzzle loaders are a wonderful weapon... but NO LONGER what one could consider a primitive weapon.

Bowhunters are having the same fight over crossbows...........

Note: most primitive weapon hunter use those weapons to challenge themselves and spend more time afield while many inline users just see it as a way to shoot more game. If they had to choose between their inline and a cartridge rifle the latter would win every time while the true primitive weapon hunter would choose the former.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby Sagebrush » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:11 am

One of the main reasons that BP has increased in sales and use in the field was the invention of.................

"Cowboy" shoots, that are held all over the country and even the ladys, enjoy it.

Many of the shotguns and pistols use real black powder for their charges and the "Danial Boone" type
matches all over ,along with cannon matches !!
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby Duplex lover » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:45 am

I want a cannon :grooving:
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby Leadhead » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:04 am

It's all about the money. All the state wants is more revenue from another license. Several states now allow the use of single shot H&R 45-70 or 444 centerfires and some have allowed the use of the 30-30 due to its distance restrictions. Most states are overpopulated with deer so it's not an issue of shooting too many. It's just a money issue.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby RustyGunz1960 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:11 pm

This is definitely one of my pet peeves. The modern muzzleloaders are the result of manufacturers seeing an opportunity in the technical definitions of the weapons allowed for the “primitive” seasons and moved to create a sales niche for a large group of hunters who have no interest in traditional or historical weapons, but merely want to be able to have another season to kill deer. When I started muzzleloading you had the woods virtually to yourself, because only a handful of hunters were willing to deal with the challenges of traditional guns. This perceived “handicap” was the reason a separate season was set aside for black powder in the first place. I don’t bowhunt but understand the frustrations of traditional archers as well. One buddy of mine who shoots a longbow is fond of questioning other archers as to how much practice they need before they take the training wheels off their bows. :tongue:
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby Sagebrush » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:54 pm

They should have deer season in Pennsylvania all year long !!

Did you know that more deer are killed each year by cars, than hunters !! ??

Got to be a Black Powder heaven.................with all the frigging deer.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby ibedamn » Tue May 08, 2012 6:33 am

My biggest complaint about all the new equipment (guns, scopes, powders, bullets, or whatever) is it encourages sky busting. In other words it's telling people they now have a 250 yard gun. I'm not disputing that deer can be killed with a black powder gun at that distance, I just think there are more wounded, or crippled at these extreme ranges than are killed cleanly.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby Sagebrush » Wed May 09, 2012 8:41 am

BP single shot 50 cals can kill past 300 yards !!

Friend of mine makes the whole thing,stocks and barrels and even pours his own bullets.
He also makes custom knifes and is a Gunsmith , just don't expect you gun back soon........
he is booked,big time.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby ibedamn » Wed May 09, 2012 12:17 pm

Sagebrush wrote:BP single shot 50 cals can kill past 300 yards !!


I agree deer can be killed at 300 yards, what I question is how many people are capable of that kind of accuracy under real hunting conditions. It takes some amount of skill, and a whole lot of practice and set up time before you can lob a bullet into a deer's vitals consistently at 300 yards with a muzzle loader. I might be wrong, but I think the average shooter will cripple more game than he or she will ever kill cleanly at 300 yards. For me 100 yards with a bp gun is a plenty, I let em walk when they are further than that. Deer are just to plentiful here to chance losing or crippling one.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby dakotashooter2 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:44 am

Even long ranges don't hamper the modern muzzle loaders anymore.... not with the addition of ballistic scopes.. Modern muzzle loaders are not for people who want to hunt in a traditional method... they are for hunters that want to hunt another season but don't want to give up their center fire rifles. It's also not about the hunt but the success.
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby tucker301 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:04 am

I have to laugh at the people who scoff at my modern muzzleloader and then go climb a tree with their single cam compound bow, carbon arrows, expanding broadheads, and fiber optic sights. :rolleyes:

Ultimately, deer hunting is about managing the resource.
In my part of the country, deer populations continue to flourish. Expanded seasons help take more animals out of the population, reducing damage to vehicles and crops.

So, at least for my state, it makes sense to allow crossbows in archery season and smokeless inline muzzleloaders.
Licenses are purchased separately, so that brings more money into the game commission's budget.
Who cares?
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Re: Have Muzzleloaders gone too far?

Postby Sagebrush » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:07 am

I said that deed can be killed at 300 yards.............but

Out here in the west, my state being Nevada, we have a hard time getting a tag of any type ,even just an old deer tag !!

Most of us do not take long shots since it might be the only shot we get all season and try for a 100%, sure thing, meat in the pot, shot !! I have only come home one time with an empty tag and I have it hanging on the wall as a reminder of how things can go wrong or that you don't always have the right type of deer come your way.

Lots of people feel sorry for the deer but when you think about ALL the things that can HAPPEN and go WRONG , the poor
old deer has a pretty good chance .
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