Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

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Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:43 pm

I know lots of people poo-poo them, and say that they don't work. But, when you get right down to it, none of them have ever actually used one.

It's a goofy looking thing to put on a shotgun, and that guy on the Flyway Highway isn't helping things with the laugh factor.

However, if you can swallow your pride, thicken your skin, and practice with one, you might be surprised at the results you get.

There are a few things about how it works, that make it tough to conceptualize exactly HOW it works. But, it absolutely does work.

It's not a bead, and it doesn't work the same way as the sight on a rifle works. But, you can really screw up your shooting, if that's how you "treat" it.

The trick is to NOT aim with the dot!!!!!

You don't aim a shotgun. You point a shotgun.
If you try to aim a shotgun, it stops moving, because you started thinking.

A reflex sight is great for pointing. It's like a laser projected in the sky, or a mouse curser on your computer screen.

All you gotta do, is keep your focus on the bird, move the pointer in front of it at the correct lead, and pull the trigger.

Since it's not a bead, you don't have to look at it, in order to see it. You don't have to focus on it either. It's just "there".

Also, since it is only visible to one eye, you can maintain your focus and concentration on the target, without seeing two "beads". There will always be one target, and one dot. Regardless of eye dominance.

And here's the really weird part. You don't need to be able to see through the glass, in order for your brain to make it work. That's right. Your left eye sees the target, your right eye sees the dot, and your brain merges the two images into one.

The downside is the cost, and the fragility of the glass.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby aunt betty » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:16 pm

copterdoc wrote:


You don't aim a shotgun. You point a shotgun.
If you try to aim a shotgun, it stops moving, because you started thinking.

I'm surprised. I thought you just trained dogs. Them two lines are golden when it comes to shooting waterfowl on the wing.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby aunt betty » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:20 pm

I'd add something like...Have you ever tried getting running kids wet with a garden hose? You don't aim and if you tried you would look awfully stupid. Shooting ducks is a little bit like spraying running kids with a hose.

No, I've never tried the reflex sight. I think sights are for "aimers".
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:27 pm

aunt betty wrote:....I think sights are for "aimers".
I think that's what a lot of people think.

But, that's not how a reflex sight works.

It's more like a laser sight, that doesn't need a surface for the light to bounce off of. The lens coating is the surface.
We have laser pointers. That's really what a laser sight is.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby dsm16428 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:36 pm

I love my FF II sight. Used to sue it for everything from turkeys to doves to geese. Both eyes open, swing the red dot through the target and shoot. I'm used to them from a tactical standpoint though as well, so I have more experience with them than most...
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby T Man » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:12 pm

If I can play the devils advocate here copterdoc.

copterdoc wrote:
The trick is to NOT aim with the dot!!!!!

You don't aim a shotgun. You point a shotgun.
If you try to aim a shotgun, it stops moving, because you started thinking.

A reflex sight is great for pointing. It's like a laser projected in the sky, or a mouse curser on your computer screen.

All you gotta do, is keep your focus on the bird, move the pointer in front of it at the correct lead, and pull the trigger.

Since it's not a bead, you don't have to look at it, in order to see it. You don't have to focus on it either. It's just "there".

Also, since it is only visible to one eye, you can maintain your focus and concentration on the target, without seeing two "beads". There will always be one target, and one dot. Regardless of eye dominance.

And here's the really weird part. You don't need to be able to see through the glass, in order for your brain to make it work. That's right. Your left eye sees the target, your right eye sees the dot, and your brain merges the two images into one.

The downside is the cost, and the fragility of the glass.


Every argument for the use of a reflex, can also be correctly stated as the proper way to use a bead.

You put the bead in front of the bird, correct lead and pull the trigger.

You are supposed to use the bead and rib to make sure you have proper head placement on the stock. Once you are down on the stock properly, you arent supposed to look at it again. The bead is a reference point and is not the same as the front blade on a rifle or handgun.

I personally have never seen 2 beads, and shoot with both eyes open. In order to correctly use a reflex, based on your assertation, you would have to remove the front bead of your gun

The same thing could be said of the bead. Your left eye sees the target, right sees the bead in the peripheral vision and puts the two together.

Neither of the two will correct for the 2 biggest shotgun shooting faults: stopping the swing when pulling the trigger, and closing your eyes when pulling the trigger.

I have never shot a reflex sight, but based on your arguments, they give no advantage of the bead but add another 200 onto the purchase price of your gun.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:47 pm

T Man wrote:I have never shot a reflex sight, but based on your arguments, they give no advantage of the bead but add another 200 onto the purchase price of your gun.
There are at least three advantages.

(1.) The dot is projected into the sky, and placed on the same focal plane as the target. You can put the dot right on the target, and have both it, and the target be in focus at the same time.

You can't do that with a bead. You can either focus on the bead, or you can focus on the bird. You can't focus on both at the same time.




(2.) The dot moves on the surface of the lens, and stays on the point of impact if you move your head.
If you put the gun in a vice, with the dot on the center of a pattern board, no matter where you move your head, the dot stays right in the center of the board.

Up, down, left, right, it doesn't matter. Where the dot is, is where the center of the pattern is going to impact.
Sure, the dot moves around on the lens, but a bead will move all over the board. And where IT is, isn't where the pattern will hit.




(3.) It is impossible to see the wrong dot. Only one eye can see the dot, so there is always only one dot.
Both eyes see a bead, so if your focus is on the target beyond it, you DO see a double image of the barrel and bead. Your dominant eye makes the one in front of your dominant eye "stronger", but that is easily fooled.





Try this. Stand 20 feet away from an object, extend your arm, and hold your thumb up. With both eyes open and unobstructed, focus on your thumb, and you will see the object beyond, as a double image.

Then, shift your focus to the object 20 feet away, without moving your arm. Now, you will see a single image of the object, and a double image of your thumb.

If you always pick the correct "thumb", you will hit where you point. However, we aren't all so blessed. And it is still possible for your non-dominant eye to "take over" and have you select the "wrong" bead.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby mudpack » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:33 pm

I can see this sighting device working....IF you use the sustained-lead method of shooting. Problem for me is that I don't; I use the swing-through/pull-away methods.
Most experienced hunters do not use the sustained-lead method, but most skeet shooters do. This might be better utilized by skeet shooters?

They say this dot shows you exactly where your point of impact is. I say; my muzzle does the same thing and I can "see" it perfectly in my periferal vision. Feel free to buy the Reflex and try it. You'll know soon enough if it was money well spent.


The irony here is that nowhere in any of his lengthy posts about people who diss the device without using one, does copterguy actually tell us he's used one and that he speaks from personal experience: i.e. that device helped him shoot better.
All he says is what the advertising might say.....
So, copter, have you ever used one?? :huh:
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:50 pm

mudpack wrote:....So, copter, have you ever used one?? :huh:
Yep.

It's fantastic.

Butt-belly-beak-bang, works just as well as sustained lead too.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:54 pm

T Man wrote:....Neither of the two will correct for the 2 biggest shotgun shooting faults: stopping the swing when pulling the trigger, and closing your eyes when pulling the trigger......
That's true.

You've still gotta not aim, and you still gotta practice.

If your lead is wrong, you are going to miss. If you stop your swing, you are going to shoot behind the target.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:20 pm

mudpack wrote:I can see this sighting device working....


I think that the basic problem with conceptualizing and effectively utilizing a reflex sight for wingshooting, is that one word.

SIGHT.

People see that word, and all that they can imagine, is a "sighting device", or "scope".

It is a form of sight, but it doesn't work in the conventional way that a sight works.

It's better to think of it as a pointing device. More specifically, it is a precision pointing device.
Instead of "sighting in", you actually calibrate it to point the same place that the gun points.

In actual usage, it is virtually identical to a laser, that always has a wall behind the target.

It works differently than any other "sighting device" in existence.

You can "chase" the target around the sky, never taking your concentration off of it, or losing your reference with the pointer.

In order for a sight to work as a sight, you have to focus ON the sight itself.
You have to center the front sight, in the rear sight, and focus your visual concentration on the sight.
That means taking your attention away from the target.

If your target is moving, you can't afford to not give it your undivided attention, or you will certainly not hit it.

Sure, you can reference your bead on the end of your barrel, without actually looking at it. But, once you do look at it, you might as well not bother pulling the trigger.

Even if you have mastered seeing the bead without looking at it, you can still make a bead "lie" just by tilting your head a little to the right, or lifting it up off the stock.
Moving your head in relation to the gun, takes your "pointer" completely out of calibration.

You can't make the dot on a reflex sight "lie", without turning the adjustment screws.
The dot points where the gun points. It doesn't care where your eye is.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby erp10 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:34 pm

If burris ever makes a mount for my maxus I will put my Fast Fire II on it. I have shot the reflex sights using shotguns and AR-15s. They work.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:36 pm

I shoot both eyes open and never see the 'bead' anymore than I'd see the 'laser'. Of the many things I don't do well...I do wing shoot well.

Just like playing ball..in the middle of the play you never hear the crowd. It's a crutch at best. The pellets kill the bird.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:39 pm

erp10 wrote:If burris ever makes a mount for my maxus I will put my Fast Fire II on it. I have shot the reflex sights using shotguns and AR-15s. They work.
Finding mounts for shotguns, is probably the biggest legitimate problem with reflex sights.

The mount can make or break the whole shebang.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:43 pm

HNTFSH wrote:....It's a crutch at best....


Either it works, or it doesn't.

I can argue that anything other than a bow and arrow, is a crutch for taking waterfowl.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:48 pm

erp10 wrote:If burris ever makes a mount for my maxus I will put my Fast Fire II on it....
Oh yeah, BTW they do make a mount for the Maxus.

http://www.burrisoptics.com/speedbead.html
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby clampdaddy » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:11 pm

As waterfowlers we spend a lot of our time in the rain, skanky pond water, and mud. Seems like you'd have to be awfully vigilant in making sure the lens stays clean and dry.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby Uncle Jesse » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:19 am

I've used them and I think they work great. To me the biggest advantage was while wearing a lot of clothes, if the gun didn't come up just to the right place it didn't matter.

copterdoc wrote:I know lots of people poo-poo them, and say that they don't work. But, when you get right down to it, none of them have ever actually used one.


Nailed it, right there.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:29 am

clampdaddy wrote:.....Seems like you'd have to be awfully vigilant in making sure the lens stays clean and dry.
Sure seems like it.

It seems like it wouldn't work, for a lot of reasons.
Until you actually use one.

I'm telling you, that a reflex sight doesn't work like anybody that has never used one thinks it works.

You don't even need to be able to see through it, for it to work just as well as it does, with a spotlessly clean lens.
As long as the dot is visible to your right eye, and the target is visible to your left eye, it still works.

You can actually use a reflex sight, with a cap completely covering the front of the lens.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby erp10 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:14 am

copterdoc wrote:
erp10 wrote:If burris ever makes a mount for my maxus I will put my Fast Fire II on it....
Oh yeah, BTW they do make a mount for the Maxus.

http://www.burrisoptics.com/speedbead.html

They advertise they make it...still havent made it. They told me sometime late fall.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby erp10 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:18 am

Try shooting your reflex sight with your off hand on a rifle. The dot will be outside of the sight because that is where your eyes put it. You still put the dot on the target to hit what yourwant to shoot..
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:25 am

erp10 wrote:......The dot will be outside of the sight because that is where your eyes put it. You still put the dot on the target to hit what yourwant to shoot..
It's called occluded sighting, and it provides lightning fast close range target acquisition.

There have been sights made that can to do it, since the 60's.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:34 pm

copterdoc wrote:
I can argue that anything other than a bow and arrow, is a crutch for taking waterfowl.


That'd be a pretty weak argument.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:49 pm

HNTFSH wrote:
copterdoc wrote:
I can argue that anything other than a bow and arrow, is a crutch for taking waterfowl.


That'd be a pretty weak argument.


Okay then, how about a slingshot?




The arguments against the use of reflex sights for wingshooting, follow a pretty consistent profile.

(1.) They are always made by people that have either never tried them, or that have never made a significant attempt to effectively use them.

(2.) Their expressed opinion, is either that they work too poorly to be worthwhile, or that they work so well, that they are a crutch. It's a position of; "We are certain that they suck, but we can't agree on why they suck."



Here's the problem.
Their argument is based entirely on personal opinion.
That opinion, is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how the reflex sight works.

Their opinion is not based on fact. It is based on fiction.
It is wrong. Dead wrong.


This world has no shortage of fanboys, that insist that their widget is the greatest widget in the world, and that any other widget is a piece of crap.

But, if you do a little research, it's not hard to find a few people that have tried that widget, and found that they had trouble with their chosen widget, so they switched to a different widget.



It's really, really, really, hard to find somebody that has ACTUALLY USED a reflex sight for wingshooting, that will come out and say that it doesn't work, or that it is a crutch.

That says a lot. That actually means something.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:56 am

I never said it didn't work for some. I said it was a crutch. And it is.

Using your logic - nobody could be a shooter without an aide.
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