Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

A shotgun forum for basic gun smithing, repair, modifications, and all other detailed shotgun information.

Moderators: waterfowlhunter, don taylor

Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby kenner » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:31 am

Hello All,

First: Yes, I have had others verify this phenomenon that's happening with my Rem 870 Express Mag....

When sighting right down the rib, something about the rib causes the bead to appear to shift/jump. I tried painting the rib flat black, and it may have helped a bit.

Has anyone else experienced this and found a remedy???

It appears to be a problem of the ramp on the rib.... Don't know if grinding off/rounding the corner, where the ramp hits full rib would help, or not.

Serious thoughts and considerations most welcome!

p.s... no I don't want to close one eye, or any tricks like that.... My long barreled 870, which has a checkered rib, is just fine. This Express shot well for me, when I held the gun a little lower and didn't "sight" down the barrel. But,, I would like to modify the barrel, if there's a remedy someone knows of.

Many thanks! Ken
kenner
hunter
 
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: SoggyFoot, Oregon


Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby aunt betty » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:35 am

What bead?
Quit lookin' at it. You're supposed to be focusing on the target.
You start worrying about that bead and you'll miss every time.
INTERNET CREDIBILITY is...an OXYMORON. :moon:
User avatar
aunt betty
hunter
 
Posts: 11212
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:09 pm
Location: Go HOGS!

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby farmboy » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:14 am

Up down or sideways? sounds like an eye dominance problem.
farmboy
hunter
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:10 am

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby 23yearsago » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:26 am

aunt betty....my thoughts exactly.
23yearsago
hunter
 
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:12 pm

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby kenner » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:59 am

The front and only bead shifts left/right,, but only if I actually sight right down the rib. I'll try closing the other eye and see if it still happens. My eyes are not as good as they use to be and my right eye, over the rib, is a little less acute/sharp than the left....

Don't know. But, other people have also experienced this phenomenon, looking down my rib...???

Oh,, again, I haven't shot this gun as much as my other 870 and I'm still getting used to the mount and everything. This barrel is 2" shorter, @28". Normally, I do focus on the target and bring the outta-focus orange bead, up through/passed/whatever the target and am pretty good with that method. But, on a going away bird, real or clay, I'm missing, when I look down the rib, whereas if I hold the gun a little lower, seeing more of the rib, I'm fine. Guess I just need more practice, mounting the gun?
kenner
hunter
 
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: SoggyFoot, Oregon

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby tenfingergrip » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:03 pm

If I were you, I would find me a pair of non-prescription glasses (assuming you don't already wear glasses) and put a small piece of opaque material (scotch tape) over the left eye focal point on the left lens (assuming you are right handed) and see if that helps. I feel like you have a dominant eye problem as the bead "shifts" as you go from sighting down the barrel at the object to focusing on the bead.
You would be surprised how many people are opposite hand/eye dominant, so other people experiencing the same "phenomenon" wouldn't surprise me.
User avatar
tenfingergrip
hunter
 
Posts: 1742
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:43 pm
Location: Eastern NC

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby kenner » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:22 pm

I just looked down the rib, in the house, even with the lights on and I'm not getting the same effect as when I'm out in sunlight... It might be the light coming off the receiver, as well.... Need to wait for a bright day.... in Oregon,, right!

Oh,, this "jump" I'm experiencing isn't a major movement, but enough to be really off. And then, it could be that as I'm looking at the target, way out there, my left eye is messin' with my right?
kenner
hunter
 
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: SoggyFoot, Oregon

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby tripleb » Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:48 pm

tenfingergrip wrote:If I were you, I would find me a pair of non-prescription glasses (assuming you don't already wear glasses) and put a small piece of opaque material (scotch tape) over the left eye focal point on the left lens (assuming you are right handed) and see if that helps. I feel like you have a dominant eye problem as the bead "shifts" as you go from sighting down the barrel at the object to focusing on the bead.
You would be surprised how many people are opposite hand/eye dominant, so other people experiencing the same "phenomenon" wouldn't surprise me.


My guess, too, is that it's an eye dominance issue. Perhaps one of your eyes isn't as dominant as it ought to be and that creates the "shifting" effect. I noticed today that if I was very fatigued and didn't focus hard on the TV screen I was seeing two images. Perhaps that's what may be happening too.

Regarding seeing the bead. If you shoot instinctively, you shouldn't see the bead. If you shoot sustained lead, you have to see the bead, though it or the target will be slightly out of focus, since you can't focus on two things not close together at the same time. If you don't see the bead, even though slightly out of focus, how can you see the space between the target and the bead to sustain the lead? Seeing the bead (or end of the rib) is a necessity in using sustained lead. I find my focus often is on the bead, with the target being slightly out of focus ..... at least on longer shots. On close shots, where there isn't much time, it's often the reverse ..... target in focus, bead slightly out of focus.
tripleb
hunter
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:39 am

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby kenner » Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:08 pm

Yes, your last statement is what I find.... I try to stay glued on the target and the orange bead is outta focus, but lets me know where the barrel is and whether I'm holding over, or bead on the belly, for a going away bird, above line of sight...

I've had really good eye 'til age 52/53,, and now at 56, I'm in new territory....

Many thanks to all who have written!!

Happy New Year to All.... Ken
kenner
hunter
 
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: SoggyFoot, Oregon

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby tripleb » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:41 pm

kenner wrote:Yes, your last statement is what I find.... I try to stay glued on the target and the orange bead is outta focus, but lets me know where the barrel is and whether I'm holding over, or bead on the belly, for a going away bird, above line of sight...

I've had really good eye 'til age 52/53,, and now at 56, I'm in new territory....

Many thanks to all who have written!!

Happy New Year to All.... Ken


Same to you. :thumbsup:

A lot of guys who shoot instinctively have a very difficult time understanding how a person can see the target and the bead at the same time and not shoot poorly as a consequence ... because that's what happens when they, the instinctive shooters, try it. But, it can be done and works particularly well on longer shots. What I like about it is that as long as I shoot the same velocity loads, the leads are the same regardless of lock time or gun weight. Before, when I shot instinctively, whenever I switched to a gun which was significantly heavier or lighter, with more or less trigger slack than the gun I was used to shooting, it took me 2 or 3 weeks of shooting it in the back yard to readjust. That was a real problem when I was using a 10 1/4 pound 10ga. and a 8 pound 12ga. on different occasions.
tripleb
hunter
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:39 am

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby GuitarPlayer » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:44 pm

I used to be left eye dominant (I'm ambidextrous). I did that trick with the scotch tape and now I'm right eye dominant. I play guitar righty, I shoot righty, I (usually) write and (always) bat lefty..
User avatar
GuitarPlayer
hunter
 
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:50 am
Location: CT

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby oldbutnew » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:11 am

You can also try installing an EasyHit. They help with cross dominance issues, and they are easy to remove if you don't like it.

http://www.championtarget.com/shooting_ ... syhit.aspx
oldbutnew
hunter
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:16 pm
Location: PA

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby ohio mike » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:04 pm

oldbutnew wrote:You can also try installing an EasyHit. They help with cross dominance issues, and they are easy to remove if you don't like it.

http://www.championtarget.com/shooting_ ... syhit.aspx


Yep,I'm a lefty that shoots right handed and I have one on a sporting clays gun.It keeps you from looking down the side of the barrel. I use it to get back on track and correct my mount when I start getting sloppy. Thanks Tom Knapp.
Life is to short to hunt with a ugly gun.
ohio mike
hunter
 
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:08 pm
Location: Northwest Ohio

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:49 am

It is your eyes... :biggrin: One is focusing differently that the other and causing the appearance of the bead moving. Solution, Do not look for the bead unless your deer or turkey hunting and are trying to "aim" the shotgun you should not even notice that there is a bead there. if it effects your turkey hunting get a clamp on rear sight and use it when needed.
"A free people ought to be armed" George Washington 1790

‘For those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor safety.’ —Ben Franklin.”
User avatar
waterfowlhunter
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 4:53 am
Location: Linden, MI

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:26 am

kenner wrote:Yes, your last statement is what I find.... I try to stay glued on the target and the orange bead is outta focus, but lets me know where the barrel is and whether I'm holding over, or bead on the belly, for a going away bird, above line of sight...

I've had really good eye 'til age 52/53,, and now at 56, I'm in new territory....

Many thanks to all who have written!!

Happy New Year to All.... Ken

Is there really a "Soggyfoot Oregon"? That's great! Whereabouts?
Glimmerjim
hunter
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:41 am

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby GuitarPlayer » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:59 am

I know there's a Hell, Wisconsin lol
User avatar
GuitarPlayer
hunter
 
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:50 am
Location: CT

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby aunt betty » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:00 am

The bead lecture. Sorry but this thread DEMANDS it.

I own several Remington 870's like the OP and have experienced the exact same phenom. I wear glasses.

I also own a 20-gauge 870 lightweight special field. Little shotgun that shoots really well and is super-lightweight.
That particular shotgun has TWO BEADS. One is about half-way down the barrel and the other is on the end.
WHY? You might ask. PLEASE ASK.

Do you line them up and aim? NO!

Those two beads and your eyeballs make a triangle when you glance at them real quick. It's MENTAL.
As I bring that shotgun up to shoulder my mind subconsciencesly (big word spelled wrong) has my eyes look at them beads but not focusing on them. The triangle is set in my mind and now I can "aim" without even looking at the gun again. You never aim a shotgun but point it. I used the word aim so you'd understand. Forgive me for that.

That's how it's supposed to work on a shotgun. If you're doing anything different, I don't care how successful you are at it...you're doing it wrong.
INTERNET CREDIBILITY is...an OXYMORON. :moon:
User avatar
aunt betty
hunter
 
Posts: 11212
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:09 pm
Location: Go HOGS!

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:11 am

GuitarPlayer wrote:I know there's a Hell, Wisconsin lol

That's a real place, too? This could turn into a great thread! :beer:
Glimmerjim
hunter
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:41 am

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:40 pm

take the beads off your shotgun and you will not have that issue at all :thumbsup: there useless if th egun fits properly, or Your deer / turkey hunting :biggrin:
"A free people ought to be armed" George Washington 1790

‘For those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor safety.’ —Ben Franklin.”
User avatar
waterfowlhunter
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 4:53 am
Location: Linden, MI

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby tripleb » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:24 pm

aunt betty wrote:The bead lecture. Sorry but this thread DEMANDS it.

I own several Remington 870's like the OP and have experienced the exact same phenom. I wear glasses.

I also own a 20-gauge 870 lightweight special field. Little shotgun that shoots really well and is super-lightweight.
That particular shotgun has TWO BEADS. One is about half-way down the barrel and the other is on the end.
WHY? You might ask. PLEASE ASK.

Do you line them up and aim? NO!

Those two beads and your eyeballs make a triangle when you glance at them real quick. It's MENTAL.
As I bring that shotgun up to shoulder my mind subconsciencesly (big word spelled wrong) has my eyes look at them beads but not focusing on them. The triangle is set in my mind and now I can "aim" without even looking at the gun again. You never aim a shotgun but point it. I used the word aim so you'd understand. Forgive me for that.

That's how it's supposed to work on a shotgun. If you're doing anything different, I don't care how successful you are at it...you're doing it wrong.


I'm afraid I have to disagree with that portion in bold red and black. You don't aim a shotgun when you shoot instinctively. You do "aim" a shotgun when you shoot sustained lead. And, like aiming a rifle at a target when using open sights, at least one of the objects seen, target or bead, will be slightly out of focus. That's the way sustained lead works. And it works better for many shooters on longer ranged targets than instinctive shooting. I used to shoot instinctive ... switching to sustained lead over a period of 4 or 5 years while shooting sporting clays. You're doing it "wrong" only if you can't hit your targets on a regular basis.

Here's a link to a non technical explanation of the process.

http://bathcountynews.com/kentucky-afie ... 243-92.htm

All but a couple of the birds in the pics (the ones where hunters are pictured with their birds) were shot using sustained lead. I saw the bead and the bird on each and every shot ..... though one was out of focus.

http://s219.beta.photobucket.com/user/t ... 20pictures
tripleb
hunter
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:39 am

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby 3200 man » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:30 pm

Another thought ! If your gun has to-much drop in the comb ( stock ) , it would cause you to peek ( raising your head ) ,with
head movement that's not down tight to the stock , the beads will move around because your rear site ( your eye ) isn't fixed !
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2790
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby kenner » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:29 am

Hello All!
I'm the OP and it's been a while since I've checked in.... sorry! Thank you for all your great thoughts, insights, and posts!

SoggyFoot, OR..... It's more of a state of being, borne out of the actual place.

I never realized what that middle bead was about! I've actually taken those off, before.

The "triangle": I know that from my Wingmaster.... there would be a certain amount of ramp in my sight picture and when my gun was mounted well, and I knew how to hit.

I've gotta get my old gun out and look,, but if/when one gets right down on the barrel, there is a light interference, or maybe the back of the ramp is blocking the bead,, but the bead does move and I've had other shooters look down the barrel (from the back) and witness the same thing. But again, that's "aiming" right down the barrel and not using the triangle. Lesson learned: Keep my head up and not down on the barrel.

This 870 Express is just a different gun, even though I've cut the stock identically and have the same LimbSaver pad on it. BUT, it's a 28" barrel, where my old gun was a 30" barrel.... Different triangle!!

So, one afternoon, I went out to the trap club and started doing quite well! I had been really out of practice and hadn't practiced enough with this gun. I think of shooting as "dancing" with the gun,, and the eyes/head are focused on the bird and the body follows through... And I actually rock back and forth and move quite a bit, when I'm shooting trap with a low gun... Drives the trad. shooters crazy!.... So now, I've changed "dance partners" and this one's a little shorter and I have to work on the right form..... (Gosh, it was really difficult to not throw in some tongue-in-cheek jokes about that metaphor)!! And when I stopped thinking and aiming and just danced, I began to shoot well again.

Thanks again, all!!
kenner
hunter
 
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: SoggyFoot, Oregon

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby flyndutchman » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:09 pm

For some reason the Express model with the laminated stock seems to have more drop at comb than the solid stock or the old Wingmaster. I have a 20ga with laminated stock that I need to add about 1/4" to the comb to be the same as the non-laminated stock on the 28 ga express I have. The extra drop at comb makes a big difference. Makes it difficult seeing the bead without rasing your head. You observed that you needed to keep your head up, this is probably why. You will shoot low with the lower comb. A simple trial would be taping some 1'8" foam on the top of the stock and see if it helps. The old addage "cheek (or head) on wood, eye on target" is the way to be consistent. If you are indescriminately raising and lowering your head you are changing your point of impact.
flyndutchman
hunter
 
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:44 pm
Location: Wenatchee

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby kenner » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:48 pm

Great!.... I'll line my two guns up and measure them.

Thanks!

I had another post/question that you might be able to help with....

7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=226629
kenner
hunter
 
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: SoggyFoot, Oregon

Re: Bead appears to jump!... Suggestions?

Postby kenner » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:54 pm

Soooo.... still haven't measured comb and all... BUT, was at the range today, with my glasses and even with the glasses and one eye closed, there's an optical illusion that happens at micro levels, but the bead is distorted and can be off to the side of the clay target. I may just go back to my sweet, old gun, pretty as she is, and paint..... They used to make removable bow paint, but I don't see it anymore.....
kenner
hunter
 
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: SoggyFoot, Oregon

Next

Return to Shotgun Repair & Modifications Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests