old .410 cant shoot steel

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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby dakotashooter2 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:15 pm

"Serious Duck hunters" is that the guys who cry in thier milk if they don't get a limit every time they go out? Hunting ducks with a 410 is a challenge. One that I suspect most waterfowl hunters are not brave or good enough to take. Probably 90% of the ducks I shoot (with any ga.) are within 15-20 yards. At that range there is enough pattern density and energy with the 410 to drop ducks..........if you can hit them.................. The guy who hunts ducks with a 410 may not take home as many ducks at the end of the day but I can guarantee he is a BETTER hunter. Every once in a while when I am struggling with my shooting skills I go back to the 410 and short range targets and hone the basics.........
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:19 pm

The following table is a comparison between Steel BB and TSS # 9. The 1/2 oz TSS, having over twice the number of pellets, will hold a pattern density long after the BB's have ceased being efficient and 6 times the energy at target long after the higher velocity 1 1/4 oz BB even with the MV of the TSS being at 173 less fps to start with. Now would it really matter if this 1/2 oz shot came from a 10 ga or 12 ga or......... 28 ga or 410????? And the TSS is from a 2-3/4" hull as well with an IC choke.

As far as shooting Steel in any of the older guns the only restriction I can see is large shot in tight chokes, hell even the choke tube manufacturers are cautioning against that combination and as seen in the accompanying chart TSS #9 is every bit as lethal as Steel BB. Since all Steel shot is now loaded in SHOTCUPS there is no contact between the barrel and the shot as was the case in the old lead days when just WADS were used behind the shot and the shot rubbed the barrel all the way from the forcing cone until it was outside the barrel. Not the case with today's Steel shot in SHOTCUPS. With the lower payloads required for TSS comes lower velocity and lower pressures thus an even better choice for the old guns in any gauge.

TSS is particularly suited to the sub gauges but works just as well in my 12 ga 2-3/4" from a Wadlock barreled 12 BPS or SBE II or 28 ga BPS.

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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:35 pm

Here's another one for comparisons.. Compare equal ranges...... I would suggest that some peoples inaccurate conclusion are based of faulty criteria and lack of the facts.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby Sagebrush » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:07 pm

Steel BB's for ducks ?

Most of us use #4 steel for a standard duck load in a 12 Ga. 1oz or 1 1/8oz folder from 1550 to 1475 fps.

Pellet count with BB's makes TSS look better but it is not real world data.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:14 pm

Sagebrush wrote:Steel BB's for ducks ?

Most of us use #4 steel for a standard duck load in a 12 Ga. 1oz or 1 1/8oz folder from 1550 to 1475 fps.

Pellet count with BB's makes TSS look better but it is not real world data.


Here ya go Sage....
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TSS is still light years ahead.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:36 am

zpstl321 wrote:TSS would be nice in a little 28 gauge SXS. I like the 410 for rabbits and dove, but not much else. I suppose with TSS if the ducks landed in your lap you could have a fun day with a little 410, but I'd prefer something a little bigger.

and what payload does the .28ga have......... so where is an advantage?????
And the other thing we have over here is if you do the unthinkable and leave the ammo at home well .12ga no bother to find, 20ga pretty sure you will find it now, and .410 in most places too...as for the other guages...good luck, not 1 store in 20 will have it on the shelves.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby z51 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:59 am

Sagebrush wrote:Steel BB's for ducks ?

Most of us use #4 steel for a standard duck load in a 12 Ga. 1oz or 1 1/8oz folder from 1550 to 1475 fps.

Pellet count with BB's makes TSS look better but it is not real world data.


He's not a duck Hunter he's a tss salesman.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby cueball910 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:45 am

Mossberg makes a 20 ga that's a youth model that grows with him you take the recoil padre of and it has 3 1 inch plate on it to shorten it up its just like the 500 and it shoots 2 3/4 & 3" it not that much and like I said it grows with him
Comes in black or camo any dicks sporting goods or Cabala or bass pro shop has them for about 250 that's what both of my sons have they love them the oldest is 11 he shoots 3" my 7 to shoot 2 3/4 steel shot look it up at mossberg.com
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:08 am

z51 wrote:
Sagebrush wrote:Steel BB's for ducks ?

Most of us use #4 steel for a standard duck load in a 12 Ga. 1oz or 1 1/8oz folder from 1550 to 1475 fps.

Pellet count with BB's makes TSS look better but it is not real world data.


He's not a duck Hunter he's a tss salesman.


I'm not but some times I wish I was though because I'm sure of all the Tungsten variants it is here to stay and those who use it will always use it.
Check this out: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=229058
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:32 am

Elvis Kiwi wrote:
zpstl321 wrote:TSS would be nice in a little 28 gauge SXS. I like the 410 for rabbits and dove, but not much else. I suppose with TSS if the ducks landed in your lap you could have a fun day with a little 410, but I'd prefer something a little bigger.

and what payload does the .28ga have......... so where is an advantage?????
And the other thing we have over here is if you do the unthinkable and leave the ammo at home well .12ga no bother to find, 20ga pretty sure you will find it now, and .410 in most places too...as for the other guages...good luck, not 1 store in 20 will have it on the shelves.


KIWI, there are very few stores that carry 28 ga here as well, it has been, until lately, considered to be a target ga. 16 ga is also scarce in the stores. However since TSS is not factory loaded anyway it's solidly in the realm of the handloaders, I load it in 20 ga, 12 ga and 28ga. Although I have a 10 ga I haven't any recipes for the 10 ga gauge yet. Safety is part of my reasoning for using the 28 ga because any mix up with a 12 ga, the 28ga will fall out the end of my 12ga barrels, not like the 20ga hull in a 12 ga barrel!!!! Besides 1 oz of TSS from a 12 or 28 is still 1 oz of TSS, velocity is the same and I am currently setting up for a patterning session to identify any pattern differences, if in fact there are any that can be readily seen, when using Cyl or IC chokes in both gauges.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby Sagebrush » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:40 am

Nothing wrong with TSS...........
It is the best thing going for the smaller gauges, to kill D&G like the 12 Ga.

I just don't think it is needed with any thing over 28 Ga. where you can get the needed pellet counts to
put enough pellets on a bird with enough energy and penetration to do the job, with minimum bird loss.

Since they solved the barrel wear with improved wads (?) it is a great option to those that want to use it.
Just that I use my Winchester .410 pump with lead shot for upland and dove, since that is what it was designed for,
as well as a few skeet rounds.

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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:19 am

Sagebrush wrote:Nothing wrong with TSS...........
It is the best thing going for the smaller gauges, to kill D&G like the 12 Ga. Agreed!

I just don't think it is needed with any thing over 28 Ga. where you can get the needed pellet counts to
put enough pellets on a bird (at far less than TSS range) with enough energy and penetration to do the job, with minimum bird loss.
I agree with you up to a point, TSS will provide ED and pattern density for a far greater distance than Steel from a 3-1/2" 12 ga along with lower muzzle velocity, 2-3/4" hulls and 1 oz loads. Whether it comes from a 28 or a 12ga.

Since they solved the barrel wear with improved wads (?) It's taken a while but the shotcups used today are a far cry from what we used years ago. it is a great option to those that want to use it.
Just that I use my Winchester .410 pump with lead shot for upland and dove, since that is what it was designed for, but with new shotcups and TSS it now has a new lease on life and a really great way to start off the young guys and gals without a handicap , as well as a few skeet rounds.

Fine looking gun there sage and game as well. I never owned a 410 but I have shot a few rounds of skeet with guns owned by others. They truly are a great small bore shotgun but with TSS and new shotcups IMHO they are no longer only a dove, rabbit and skeet gun!

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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby solway gunner » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:44 pm

so ,everyone should ditch anything larger than a .410 for hunting wildfowl at extended ranges and use one size down from dust shot using safe bet choking?
i think its a great idea.if i get the end of the yellow brick road one day i might believe in it.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:48 pm

Great comeback Kev..............
Hey the Gaep heads are working great, thanks.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:29 am

solway gunner wrote:so ,everyone should ditch anything larger than a .410 for hunting wildfowl at extended ranges and use one size down from dust shot using safe bet choking?
i think its a great idea.if i get the end of the yellow brick road one day i might believe in it.

somehow someone has wires crossed as I dont think anyone is advocating stretching the barrels infact most are saying keep range within 30 yards to be sure of a clean kill.
and yes that sure is a fine looking pumpgun.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby dakotashooter2 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:23 am

Nobody is saying that the 410 is better or even just as good as something bigger. What we are saying is that if you realize its limitations and stay within them it will get the job done just fine. When I take a kid out hunting I don't want them shooting at birds 40 yards away. I'm only going to let them shoot if the birds are under 25 yards. Thats within the capabilities of the 410. Kids are as much about getting shots as getting birds. Most young kids will easier handle 10-15 shot from a 410 than from a 20. In the end the 20 may take more birds but the 410 will allow them to shoot more which will help keep their interest.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:49 am

My point is the TSS from ANY ga is orders of magnitude better than any other alloy shot. That being said the payload of TSS from a 410 puts the user to no disadvantages over larger bores at or near the same payload and gives new uses to the 410. Provided the pattern density is maintained, by using smaller diameter shot ie #9, at any reasonable range, the ranges for sufficient ED is much greater with TSS.
The 410 isn't the replacement for a 10 ga and I am not advocating that, but what I am maintaining is that using TSS the 410 is a Duck/Goose/Turkey gun cartridge.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby solway gunner » Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:51 pm

Elvis Kiwi wrote:
solway gunner wrote:so ,everyone should ditch anything larger than a .410 for hunting wildfowl at extended ranges and use one size down from dust shot using safe bet choking?
i think its a great idea.if i get the end of the yellow brick road one day i might believe in it.

somehow someone has wires crossed as I dont think anyone is advocating stretching the barrels infact most are saying keep range within 30 yards to be sure of a clean kill.
and yes that sure is a fine looking pumpgun.


inside of 30yrds and practicaly frozen peas will work also.
i understand perfectly clearly how difficult and frustrating it must be to load a .410 with steel shot but having no experience in doing so cant comment,but there will be someone out there who does in a 3" shell no doubt, who will probably use it sensibly well within that sort of distance equaly well,or close too it.,and of course i can understand how the simple ballistic advantages of anything other than steel in a squirrel gun would be a positive attribute in loading for it.,it would be crazy to suggest otherwise.
But its not that i was having a jibe at-no wires crossed here;if you can read and follow the thread and its dialogue from the top of this page youl understand why i get extemely uncomfortable when i read how no9s can and will outperform a pellet the size of a bb regardless of what its made from,just because the latest ballistic programme says so.i understand each to their own and happy campers etc ,but until some joe sits closeby me and proves me wrong some morning on high flighting geese then ill remain more than sceptical.
so seriously,please dont waste your breath arguing with me the extraordinary virtues of the latest,greatest,dust sized shot out performing large steel pellets on live quarry out in the field on the fringes of extended waterfowl ranges because im not entertaining the idea of it-ever.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:24 pm

Does it really matter what gauge the shot comes from? It's not the gun that does the killin, it's the shot!!
Any alloy that is heavier than steel, including Lead has better ballistics provided of course that it is spherical in shape or nearly so and at the top of the heap is TSS at the present time, maybe in the future someone will alloy some other combination of elements to make something even better than TSS, time will tell.
Ya gotta keep an open mind about this stuff Kevin as I see you have and I would dearly love to be on the Firth with you with my 28 ga BPS shooting Geese, oh well maybe someday when I win the Loto...................LOL
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby hillbilly.. » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:55 am

lostknife4 wrote:
hillbilly.. wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:Can't or won't shoot steel? And why not?
Lost


Are you asking me directly. Or are you askin sumbody else?


You specifically hillbilly but everyone in general.
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I was always told I shouldn't shoot steel outa it but now I askd the question on here and get mixd answers. You brought up the shot cup which makes since. you keep talkin about this tss load. (I don't reload my own yet) but id sure like to give a box of that stuff go even threw my 10g. as you were sayin earlier the turkey guys use it and if they can kill a turkey even under 15yrs it will deffently kill a duck.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:03 am

Hillbilly if there is someone in your area that reloads 410 you could provide the components and they could either load them for you or help you reload them. TSS is not available as loaded ammunition. The sub-gauges can send enough pattern density that a 10 ga is not required, less than an oz in the 410 and 1 oz in a 12.

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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby hillbilly.. » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:27 pm

lostknife4 wrote:Hillbilly if there is someone in your area that reloads 410 you could provide the components and they could either load them for you or help you reload them. TSS is not available as loaded ammunition. The sub-gauges can send enough pattern density that a 10 ga is not required, less than an oz in the 410 and 1 oz in a 12.

Lost



im not sure if any one in my area reloads .410 if I could find some that does I would most defently provide the components. or reinburst for them. do they let you ship shells threw the mail??
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby goosepit2007 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:21 pm

hillbilly.. wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:Hillbilly if there is someone in your area that reloads 410 you could provide the components and they could either load them for you or help you reload them. TSS is not available as loaded ammunition. The sub-gauges can send enough pattern density that a 10 ga is not required, less than an oz in the 410 and 1 oz in a 12.

Lost



im not sure if any one in my area reloads .410 if I could find some that does I would most defently provide the components. or reinburst for them. do they let you ship shells threw the mail??



here is and option for ya works like the old lee loaders , this is for 3 inch .410
http://lanesreloading.com/410.html
Last edited by goosepit2007 on Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby ksfowler166 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:29 pm

z51 wrote:
A5Mag12 wrote:
z51 wrote:A .410 is NOT a duck gun period! .

Just because you can't wait for the ducks to get inside 20 yards doesn't mean every one is that way. No you don't want to go pass shooting with a .410 but inside it's range it is just as deadly as any other gun.



Seriously?
So how many times did you duck hunt with your mighty .410 last year and what was your kill?

Personally I have more respect for the birds than to do any stunt shooting on them.

Actually the 410ga is more effective on every game bird than 12ga steel or lead. You just have to use TSS or some other 18g/cc density shot in the #9 variety. It is extremely effective but the price is ridicules, I think it comes out to $5/shell or along those lines.
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Re: old .410 cant shoot steel

Postby hillbilly.. » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:29 pm

im not a reloader so how does that tool crimp it or roll it? to keep the shot in?
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