Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

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Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby assateague » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:15 am

I suppose this is the sort of thing which takes the places of that "rote memorization" you claim isn't any good for teaching kids. And this is in MATH. I can't imagine what the "discussion" and "hands on" will lead to in other subjects. This is a damn shame. "We're not focused on results, but on the explanation". What the hell. I suppose it'll be the parents' fault when their kids can't add, also.

But at least I'm forced to pay for this crap.


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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby beretta24 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:45 am

assateague wrote:I suppose this is the sort of thing which takes the places of that "rote memorization" you claim isn't any good for teaching kids. And this is in MATH. I can't imagine what the "discussion" and "hands on" will lead to in other subjects. This is a damn shame. "We're not focused on results, but on the explanation". What the hell. I suppose it'll be the parents' fault when their kids can't add, also.

But at least I'm forced to pay for this crap.



I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad. I would have failed that class miserably.

Teacher: what is 3x4?
Me: 12
Teacher: how did you come up with that answer?
Me: I remembered it
Teacher: that's not good enough, how do you know?
Me: That's what you taught me
Teacher: Thats not good enough, can anyone else explain this?
Future unemployed person: Well first, he is wrong. The answer is 4 because if I cover 3 dots with 4 dots I have 4 dots
Teacher: VERY good explanation. That is what I am looking for from my students. The answer is 12, but you did great FUP.
Me: How did I do?
Teacher: Not very good, you need to learn how to explain things like FUP.
Me: But FUP's explanation made no sense.
Teacher: We are more concerned about the explanation.

And tell me how we aren't setting kids up for failure? We are teaching them that results don't matter. Everyone gets to play and everyone will win. I wonder if their future boss would agree.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:00 am

Sure we want the to compute correctly, but we are more focused on their flawed reasoning :fingerhead:

Why is 3x4=12?

because (12/4) x (12/3) = 12 :yes:

My guess is at least 90% of the math teachers focused on the how wouldn't get that I have not explained it, but simply restated the problem.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ctdeathfrombelow » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:18 am

I can't tell you how many times I got poor grades in math for finding the correct answer to an equation but with the "wrong" procedure.
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Re: Ohio- This The

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:31 am

ctdeathfrombelow wrote:I can't tell you how many times I got poor grades in math for finding the correct answer to an equation but with the "wrong" procedure.

That is the biggest failure I see with math. They need to teach many different ways to solve the same problem. There are normally many ways to get to the answer and everybody's brain works a little different, so you have to find what works for them. A person sees the same problem solved in many different ways, often one way will click for them. Until that happens, it's normally just memorization and regurgitation of the "how" that they memorized.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby sharris » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:39 am

I think you are over interpreting this. She was focusing on kids that are getting the wrong answers and trying to get to the core reason of why they are miscomputing so that she can address what the underlying problem is. This has been going on in schools forever and is why teachers give partial credit on exams. Years ago I used to tutor math in high school and I always wanted to see the work so I could follow their line of thinking to correct problems. It is a lot easier to deal with a miscalculation than a misunderstanding of basic math concepts, which is what this teacher is saying.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby assateague » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:44 am

No she's not.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:00 am

assateague wrote:I suppose this is the sort of thing which takes the places of that "rote memorization" you claim isn't any good for teaching kids. And this is in MATH. I can't imagine what the "discussion" and "hands on" will lead to in other subjects. This is a damn shame. "We're not focused on results, but on the explanation". What the hell. I suppose it'll be the parents' fault when their kids can't add, also.

But at least I'm forced to pay for this crap.



'Teague we're no strangers to this discussion, we've hit on it in the past.

I noticed it more profoundly as my daughter was in lower elementary grades.
You have "classroom" participation. They take little "quizzes".
A student may get every answer wrong, and STILL recieve an "AWARD for Participation" with childs' name on it-
A REWARD ,..a false sense of ACHIEVEMENT,..it instills a pre-concieved notion in a kids' mind that ALL you have to do is participate in something and you will still successful! It's a crock!

It seems there's absolutely NO kind of incentive or motivation to get kids to get it RIGHT anymore.
THEN they take tests (that REALLY matter), and fail.
Go figure :fingerhead:
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:09 am

assateague wrote:No she's not.

x2

If they were able to explain their reason, but they got the answer wrong, we are more focused on the how and moving to the explanation, sure we will correct them, but the emphasis is on the explanation. That's a paraphrase of what she said. The focus is not on getting the right answer.

It's very simple, if you are doing problems that are 3x4=12 and you get 11, you get zero credit. It's wrong. If you are doing calculus or something more complicated, OK, you get some credit, but you are still WRONG and the focus must remain on the fact that you are wrong because if you continue to be wrong, you have learned NOTHING! And it doesn't matter how good your explanation sounds, it is worthless in reality even if a teacher gives you a passing grade. It will lead to failure in life. Not your life being a failure, but wrong decisions with varying degrees of harm to you and others.

Now if the kid gets 11, you can work through the how, so that when they get to the end they come to the conclusion: Image boy that was stupid now that I see what I did wrong.

Nowhere in that does it sound like she is talking about showing them the error of their way as the focus.

Math is not about the BS. It is about getting the correct answer and there is a correct answer. Anything else is simply wrong.

The reason for it is so that in your day to day life when you have to make decisions, you get the correct answer. That may be no more than which bag of rice is cheaper or it could be an engineer or scientist solving a slightly tougher math problem.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:11 am

We teachers are so powerful that we get this stuff through legislation on our own.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:17 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
assateague wrote:No she's not.

x2

If they were able to explain their reason, but they got the answer wrong, we are more focused on the how and moving to the explanation, sure we will correct them, but the emphasis is on the explanation. That's a paraphrase of what she said. The focus is not on getting the right answer.

It's very simple, if you are doing problems that are 3x4=12 and you get 11, you get zero credit. It's wrong. If you are doing calculus or something more complicated, OK, you get some credit, but you are still WRONG and the focus must remain on the fact that you are wrong because if you continue to be wrong, you have learned NOTHING! And it doesn't matter how good your explanation sounds, it is worthless in reality even if a teacher gives you a passing grade. It will lead to failure in life. Not your life being a failure, but wrong decisions with varying degrees of harm to you and others.

Now if the kid gets 11, you can work through the how, so that when they get to the end they come to the conclusion: Image boy that was stupid now that I see what I did wrong.

Nowhere in that does it sound like she is talking about showing them the error of their way as the focus.

Math is not about the BS. It is about getting the correct answer and there is a correct answer. Anything else is simply wrong.

The reason for it is so that in your day to day life when you have to make decisions, you get the correct answer. That may be no more than which bag of rice is cheaper or it could be an engineer or scientist solving a slightly tougher math problem.


Right.
That's the way I heard it as well.

Just don't believe it's neccessary to brainstorm, conduct an investigation on the reasons why a student(s) got an answer wrong.
A)- Student wasn't paying attention in class
B)- Student has poor study habits
C)- Clarity, or comprehensive techniques allowing students to learn in the first place
D)- No motivation to "get it right" in early years
E)- Possible learning disability in isolated cases

I'm a firm believer in a child getting support from home. That's were things start.
However it's not ALL about what a parent can do to motivate his/her child from home. Teachers are supposed to be the eyes and ears at school for parents, they're on the "front line"
If a child is failing, a teacher (may or may not), send a stupid E-mail, (that may never get read or lost in cyberspace), to the parent. Parent finds out on a report card after the fact.
Screw that :rolleyes:
If a child in your class is failing or isn't keeping up with the rest of the class , how 'bout picking up the phone and personally discussing it with a parent,..you know- one warm blooded mammal to another :hi:
Last edited by swampbilly 1980 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:21 am

ohioboy wrote:We teachers are so powerful that we get this stuff through legislation on our own.

Collectively you are powerful enough to get wages and benefits at many times the market rate, so why not?
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby assateague » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:26 am

ohioboy wrote:We teachers are so powerful that we get this stuff through legislation on our own.



What are you doing to stop it?
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby assateague » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:29 am

The reason I ask, is that you seem to constantly portray yourself as a passive, independent entity, just "along for the ride". You have repeatedly asked parents to "get involved", for people to "voice their opinions", and so forth.

So, what have YOU done from the inside? If it's good for folks to "get involved" who are on the outside (i.e. they have a student in school), why is it not exponentially better for the ones who implement the policy to "get involved"?
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:54 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
ohioboy wrote:We teachers are so powerful that we get this stuff through legislation on our own.

Collectively you are powerful enough to get wages and benefits at many times the market rate, so why not?

Yay us.
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Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby go get the bird » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:57 am

assateague wrote:The reason I ask, is that you seem to constantly portray yourself as a passive, independent entity, just "along for the ride". You have repeatedly asked parents to "get involved", for people to "voice their opinions", and so forth.

So, what have YOU done from the inside? If it's good for folks to "get involved" who are on the outside (i.e. they have a student in school), why is it not exponentially better for the ones who implement the policy to "get involved"?


He's going to tell you it's too hard to get anything changed, no one takes advice from the teachers, or that he's on some bullshit committee designed to create some minuscule amount of change, but has yet to do so.

Mark my words. :lol:
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:16 am

ohioboy wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
ohioboy wrote:We teachers are so powerful that we get this stuff through legislation on our own.

Collectively you are powerful enough to get wages and benefits at many times the market rate, so why not?

Yay us.

God helps those that help themselves, right?

I guess you all just stumbled into the monopoly power that you have and it was through no fault of the teachers, their unions, their promotion of political candidates, or any of that. :rolleyes:

Teachers are just as self-centered as anyone else. They've just been much better at convincing themselves and many others that they are motivated by a higher calling. The results on the ground strongly suggest otherwise. But I guess they are focused on explaining things and not on the actual correct results :yes:
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby sharris » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:40 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
assateague wrote:No she's not.

x2

If they were able to explain their reason, but they got the answer wrong, we are more focused on the how and moving to the explanation, sure we will correct them, but the emphasis is on the explanation. That's a paraphrase of what she said. The focus is not on getting the right answer.



She said she wanted her students to compute correctly, but to go beyond that and know why they were computing correctly and be able to explain it. I have no problems with that. I can easily see the value of teaching concepts first (and expecting the kids to explain them to show that they are really understood) and then focusing on the end product, especially in early math education.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:40 am

sharris wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
assateague wrote:No she's not.

x2

If they were able to explain their reason, but they got the answer wrong, we are more focused on the how and moving to the explanation, sure we will correct them, but the emphasis is on the explanation. That's a paraphrase of what she said. The focus is not on getting the right answer.



She said she wanted her students to compute correctly, but to go beyond that and know why they were computing correctly and be able to explain it. I have no problems with that. I can easily see the value of teaching concepts first (and expecting the kids to explain them to show that they are really understood) and then focusing on the end product, especially in early math education.

What did she say they were putting the emphasis on? "We want our students to compute correctly, but the emphasis is really moving to the explanation and the how and the why and can I really talk through the procedures"

That is a direct quote to the best of my ability.

The EMPHASIS should be on one and only one thing, computing correctly. The how and the why and talking through the procedures has only one purpose, so the kid computes correctly :fingerhead:

They want that, but that is NOT the emphasis, so what are they going to get? :huh: I want many things, but if it is not something that I have emphasized in my life, I am for the most part left wanting those things to this day. Why? :huh:

If you are not consistently getting the right answer, you did NOT learn the concept. They go hand in hand. They are not separable. You cannot emphasize the concept and not emphasize getting the desired result. I don't care if it is playing the piano or learning your multiplication tables, the emphasis has got to be on demonstrating mastery at the appropriate level which allows you to work to mastery of the next level. It is not being able to articulate the concept while being unable to demonstrate a mastery of it. Maybe the goal is entire generations of teachers: the can't really do it, but they sound good describing it, so they teach.

The emphasis has got to be on the results. In math class that is mastery of math skill and not the ability to articulate them. That is a different class and a different, granted valuable, skill.

What I really think is happening is the classic case where whatever you personally do well, you over emphasize the value of that skill.

Generations ago, when someone with exceptional math and science skills didn't have near the opportunities that exist today, they were much more likely to teach. Same with many other skills. Today and for some generations now, what are the odds that someone with the aptitude to be an M.D. or get into a top engineering school or a top law school or ... was going to choose to be a school teacher? The reason people choose to be school teachers in my personal experience has been that it is the family tradition, it was the best they could get into in college, they flunked out of engineering, they wanted to pretend like they were important people, it's a good job for a woman that wants to raise kids and have summers off with them, and the most highly motivated and talented people do other things, while generations ago, very talented and capable people were teachers. I had some very old teachers that were very smart, but I've seen very few young teachers that are not pretty dumb and none that I would consider exceptionally intelligent.

So what are the skills of the mediocre? Well all through school, being right was not what they excelled at. It was explaining why they were wrong :yes:
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby slowshooter » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:12 pm

sharris wrote:I think you are over interpreting this. She was focusing on kids that are getting the wrong answers and trying to get to the core reason of why they are miscomputing so that she can address what the underlying problem is. This has been going on in schools forever and is why teachers give partial credit on exams. Years ago I used to tutor math in high school and I always wanted to see the work so I could follow their line of thinking to correct problems. It is a lot easier to deal with a miscalculation than a misunderstanding of basic math concepts, which is what this teacher is saying.



Correct. The goal is not to reward rote memorization. Sure it's useful if you have a high functioning memory and can remember everything... But most students have to brute force their way through to learn the algebra that they'll face later in life.

The goal is to understand the process to arrive at a correct answer. Then train the kids to identify the types of problems they will face so they can apply the right processes as needed. Then drill repeatedly so the process/ID is remembered and reliably recalled.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby assateague » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:17 pm

If they're not smart enough to remember "3x4=12", no way in hell are they smart enough to analyze a situation, and know when to apply a lesson they learned by accident. No way.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:33 pm

assateague wrote:If they're not smart enough to remember "3x4=12", no way in hell are they smart enough to analyze a situation, and know when to apply a lesson they learned by accident. No way.

Beyond learning the concept of multiplying one number by another, what exactly are you going to explain or draw.

Now maybe this woman is in no way representative or maybe she just gave a horrible example and failed to explain what she meant, but what she said is just not defensible.

Image

If the kid gets this, the emphasis is getting the correct answer to 3x4 and not that 3x4 is three groups of four, but that it equals 12.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby sharris » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:36 pm

Spinner -- saying that a correct answer and the concept are inseparable doesn't quite fit with the learning continuum. You learn the ABC's then learn to read. You learn the concept of math and then you focus on mastering it to get the correct answer. It is just part of the process of learning. I'd have issues if that was how the entire academic program was set up. But for learning basic math fundamentals I think it is fine.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:03 pm

sharris wrote:Spinner -- saying that a correct answer and the concept are inseparable doesn't quite fit with the learning continuum. You learn the ABC's then learn to read. You learn the concept of math and then you focus on mastering it to get the correct answer. It is just part of the process of learning. I'd have issues if that was how the entire academic program was set up. But for learning basic math fundamentals I think it is fine.

If you can't get the right answer, have you truly learned the concept? :no:

The concept that you are learning changes as you progress.

First you teach the concept of letters.

Which of the following is a letter? ^, #, A, 4

If they select anything, but A, does it matter how well they describe what a letter is? :huh:

Can they move on to spelling cat if they can't identify c, a, and t as letters? :no:

Letters is a concept.

Words is a concept.

Sentences is a concept.

And on and on with far more complex concepts to master. The difference being that eventually mastery becomes subjective.

I do not see where it breaks down for any learning process. I don't care if it is calling ducks or calculus or whatever, you master simple skills which are often a novel concept to the person when they start, but until mastery of that once novel concept is demonstrated, what have you learned?
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby sharris » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:35 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
sharris wrote:Spinner -- saying that a correct answer and the concept are inseparable doesn't quite fit with the learning continuum. You learn the ABC's then learn to read. You learn the concept of math and then you focus on mastering it to get the correct answer. It is just part of the process of learning. I'd have issues if that was how the entire academic program was set up. But for learning basic math fundamentals I think it is fine.

If you can't get the right answer, have you truly learned the concept? :no:

The concept that you are learning changes as you progress.

First you teach the concept of letters.

Which of the following is a letter? ^, #, A, 4

If they select anything, but A, does it matter how well they describe what a letter is? :huh:



You are not asking them to describe a letter, you are asking for their thought process that led to that selection. If half of the kids put "4" as their answer it is not only justifiable, but imperative to ask them why they chose that so you can fix the misconception. No difference than basic math. Ask them to explain why they thought 4X3=11 and then you can address any conceptual problems that exist in a streamlined (and individualized) manner
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