Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

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Re: Ohio- This The

Postby ohioboy » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:27 pm

go get the bird wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
go get the bird wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
go get the bird wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
sharris wrote:No where did she say incorrect answers from flawed thinking was fine if it could be articulated by the child. That was specifically addressed when she said they would be correcting wrong answers/thought process at 21-23 seconds into the video. She said the goal was to get them to compute correctly at 25-27 seconds. She said the goal was to not just know the answer was 12 but to know why it was 12 at 38-40 second.

Yes.

I would rather my kids be able to say why something is right, rather than just it is right. If they show you their process you can correct the mistake. How else do you correct a mistake? Mind reader? Assa, since you don't have a degree in education like I do, how would you correct mistakes? You like mindless students without thinking skills?

That's exactly the point, and you've failed to comprehend it.

I'm not sure what you teach, nor does it matter, but I'll ask in the most elementary way possible:

If you we're an algebra teacher, and you asked this question on the test:

Simplify the following equation: 3X+2X^2+x^3=54

If the student simplified all the way down to the last step, correctly mind you, and some how managed to end up with X=4, what would you do? Do you give him credit for using the logic, or do you count it wrong, because after all, this IS math and he IS wrong?


Thanks for breaking it down. :no:

Partial credit, but mind you I am not a math teacher. I teach social studies so there is lots of room for personal touch in essays. Not so much in multiple choice.

And maybe I missed it, but where does she say this is applied to testing situations?

Exactly what I thought you would say. You'd give credit for wrong answers, which allows the student to finish the test, or homework, or whatever, while never actually getting the problem correct. This is the point.

And by the way, I hope you can can simplify that. It's high school freshman math.


So how do you show a student where they went wrong? You credit to the fault. Just like hooking up with a chick. Or did you get a fully correct problem the first time?

Why would you credit a student for being wrong? That's insane. You punish for wrong answers, and reward for correct ones.

How would I teach it? Probably just like other teachers. I wouldn't, however, give credit for wrong answer. If you've failed it, you've failed it. I will show you how to do it, and break it down, step by step, but unless you can demonstrate to me completely, you've yet to master it, and don't deserve to move on.

Good. So you support the common core then. "Credit" during practice. Mastery during testing.


Do some homework next time.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby assateague » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:46 pm

Yes, you're a fine example of "leadership". :lol: you can keep trotting out your résumé for me, but your responses tell me all I need to hear. You are more than happy being a cog in the wheel, appeasing yourself with platitudes that end with "but I tried my best", and denigrating anyone who dares to doubt you. Glad to see you're back in the "I'm an excellent teacher" kick again. The one you denied ever saying not that long ago.

And if you ever insinuate what you did regarding me or my children again, I will take you up on your offer to come visit you. And it will not be pleasant. And yes, that is a personal threat.
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Re: Ohio- This The

Postby go get the bird » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:52 pm

ohioboy wrote:Good. So you support the common core then. "Credit" during practice. Mastery during testing.


No, I support wrong answers being treated as such. You're just to dense to understand what is being written.


Woman 1: "but even under the new common core, even if they said 3x4 was 11, if they were able to explain their reasoning, and explain how THEY came up with their answer, really, in, uh, words and oral explanations, and they showed it in a picture, and they just got the final number wrong? We're really more focusing on the how and the..."


So here, woman 1 is implying that, because the student was able justify his/her answer, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS WRONG, the student should be allotted some type of special credit, like a gold star. "Congrats, little Timmy. You've shown me how to do this entire math problem, yet you still come up with the wrong answer".

Woman 2: "But you'd be correcting them, right?"

Here, woman 2 is reassuring herself, and others for that matter, that woman one, after implying that focus should be shifted from getting the correct answer to explaining the answer you've gotten, will be correcting the students when they've gotten the problem wrong.

Woman 1: "Oh, absolutely, absolutely, we want our students to compute correctly. But the emphasis is really moving more towards the explanation and the how and the why, and 'can I really talk through the procedures that I went through to get this answer', and not just knowing that it's 12, how do I know that..."

Now, woman 1 is agreeing that, on one hand she will be correcting the students on their mistakes, yet on the other-the important part of the learning is not getting the right answer, it's about being able to explain your methods to getting the answer, where correctness is irrelevant.

ohioboy wrote:Do some homework next time.

Pull your head out, you're in danger of suffocating.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby WTN10 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:58 pm

ohioboy wrote:I can crack most kids. Bet I could you too. Mom/dad issues, molestation, abuse, neglect are the most common. Not saying that is your case, just suspect. You analyze for a living, right? Look at what you gripe about. Central authority. Follow them Reece's pieces and you might get there.


What a ****.
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Re: Ohio- This The

Postby ohioboy » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:59 pm

assateague wrote:Yes, you're a fine example of "leadership". :lol: you can keep trotting out your résumé for me, but your responses tell me all I need to hear. You are more than happy being a cog in the wheel, appeasing yourself with platitudes that end with "but I tried my best", and denigrating anyone who dares to doubt you. Glad to see you're back in the "I'm an excellent teacher" kick again. The one you denied ever saying not that long ago.

And if you ever insinuate what you did regarding me or my children again, I will take you up on your offer to come visit you. And it will not be pleasant. And yes, that is a personal threat.


you asked what am i doing. i did not trot. correct me if i am wrong.

. "I want to change things. I don't have all the answers." is what i said, not sure where i said i was an excellent teacher.

where did i attack your kids? or insinuate anything of that nature. read that one again maybe. and threats are bad and i believe against forum rules? right? admins?

here is the whole link, not a snippet as originally posted. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AqpF12m ... e=youtu.be go to 21:30. that should clear some things up. "
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:01 pm

WTN10 wrote:
ohioboy wrote:I can crack most kids. Bet I could you too. Mom/dad issues, molestation, abuse, neglect are the most common. Not saying that is your case, just suspect. You analyze for a living, right? Look at what you gripe about. Central authority. Follow them Reece's pieces and you might get there.


What a ****.

yea, i hear that from my freshmen at times.

glad to see you show up. bat signal went out?
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby assateague » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:04 pm

I just did. See above. It's been noted.

As for the rest, feel free to run to the principal's office if you're being bullied. I really don't give a crap at this point.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:04 pm

24:40 on that should help too. this is doing exactly what you guys always complain about. exactly.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby assateague » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:36 pm

ohioboy wrote:I can crack most kids. Bet I could you too. Mom/dad issues, molestation, abuse, neglect are the most common. Not saying that is your case, just suspect. You analyze for a living, right? Look at what you gripe about. Central authority. Follow them Reece's pieces and you might get there.


After further reflection, I figured I'd give you a chance to explain this one. So go ahead, Mr. Leadership. Knock yourself out.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby go get the bird » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:10 pm

Ohio, this video is pure gold, and it doesn't play well for you.

One minute she's claiming that there is a lot overlap between 7th and 8th grade material, but the 8th grade material is a bit more in depth. The next, she's saying there isn't much overlap, so students need to go completely through every grade, as there won't be a review in subsequent grades. :fingerhead:

Also, she's claiming that there will be a larger focus on skills at an earlier age, yet at roughly 12:03, she said the ADVANCED 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th grade math course will lead you to geometry in high school. Tell me how that's any different than it is now. Sounds to me like they are just trying to justify passing stupid kids by lowering the expectations and shifting the focus from getting the answer right to just having a minor amount of cognitive function. Again, :fingerhead:

Under the common core there are two different ways the high school can go. They can stay on the traditional path, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and so forth, or they can go to what is being called an integrated model, where every year, all of the students will get algebra, geometry, trig, calculus, and it will just kind of be more of an integrated class model."


Explain this- Why, as a system based on your ability to use what you've learned by applying it where need be, would you put the roof on by teaching advanced mathematics when the foundation is still wet with geometry? That's like teaching your kid how to tie it's shoes before it can even walk. And again - :fingerhead:

Even after watching the full "3x4" comment and response a few times, I still don't see how you are missing the fact that she's saying that the new common core is focused on explaining an answer, regardless of it's correctness. Yes, she said that she would be correcting wrong answers, but the focus is on the "how and why". This is getting old- :fingerhead:

"63% of students go into college needing a developmental math course.."


Sounds like the shortcomings of piss-poor teachers.

What a joke.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:40 am

if a student memorizes 3X4=12, then there is no way they figure out what 8X7 is (this is assuming that they have not been given the tables for 8 or 7 yet). I assume that this is the core of the issue at hand. A student that understands the fundamentals on HOW to calculate multiplication will be able to figure out 8X7 without ever being exposed to the shortcut tables...
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby beretta24 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:40 am

go get the bird wrote:Ohio, this video is pure gold, and it doesn't play well for you.

One minute she's claiming that there is a lot overlap between 7th and 8th grade material, but the 8th grade material is a bit more in depth. The next, she's saying there isn't much overlap, so students need to go completely through every grade, as there won't be a review in subsequent grades. :fingerhead:

Also, she's claiming that there will be a larger focus on skills at an earlier age, yet at roughly 12:03, she said the ADVANCED 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th grade math course will lead you to geometry in high school. Tell me how that's any different than it is now. Sounds to me like they are just trying to justify passing stupid kids by lowering the expectations and shifting the focus from getting the answer right to just having a minor amount of cognitive function. Again, :fingerhead:

Under the common core there are two different ways the high school can go. They can stay on the traditional path, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and so forth, or they can go to what is being called an integrated model, where every year, all of the students will get algebra, geometry, trig, calculus, and it will just kind of be more of an integrated class model."


Explain this- Why, as a system based on your ability to use what you've learned by applying it where need be, would you put the roof on by teaching advanced mathematics when the foundation is still wet with geometry? That's like teaching your kid how to tie it's shoes before it can even walk. And again - :fingerhead:

Even after watching the full "3x4" comment and response a few times, I still don't see how you are missing the fact that she's saying that the new common core is focused on explaining an answer, regardless of it's correctness. Yes, she said that she would be correcting wrong answers, but the focus is on the "how and why". This is getting old- :fingerhead:

"63% of students go into college needing a developmental math course.."


Sounds like the shortcomings of piss-poor teachers.

What a joke.

I wouldn't say its all piss poor teachers. The curriculum shoved down their throats doesn't help. Could they do more to stand up against the NCLB bs, sure, but it can't all fall on their shoulders.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:28 am

Indaswamp wrote:if a student memorizes 3X4=12, then there is no way they figure out what 8X7 is (this is assuming that they have not been given the tables for 8 or 7 yet). I assume that this is the core of the issue at hand. A student that understands the fundamentals on HOW to calculate multiplication will be able to figure out 8X7 without ever being exposed to the shortcut tables...

Yes. And your brain might see multiplication differently. Thus the teacher asking for explanation in order to correct,
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:32 am

go get the bird wrote:Ohio, this video is pure gold, and it doesn't play well for you.

One minute she's claiming that there is a lot overlap between 7th and 8th grade material, but the 8th grade material is a bit more in depth. The next, she's saying there isn't much overlap, so students need to go completely through every grade, as there won't be a review in subsequent grades. :fingerhead:

Also, she's claiming that there will be a larger focus on skills at an earlier age, yet at roughly 12:03, she said the ADVANCED 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th grade math course will lead you to geometry in high school. Tell me how that's any different than it is now. Sounds to me like they are just trying to justify passing stupid kids by lowering the expectations and shifting the focus from getting the answer right to just having a minor amount of cognitive function. Again, :fingerhead:

Under the common core there are two different ways the high school can go. They can stay on the traditional path, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and so forth, or they can go to what is being called an integrated model, where every year, all of the students will get algebra, geometry, trig, calculus, and it will just kind of be more of an integrated class model."


Explain this- Why, as a system based on your ability to use what you've learned by applying it where need be, would you put the roof on by teaching advanced mathematics when the foundation is still wet with geometry? That's like teaching your kid how to tie it's shoes before it can even walk. And again - :fingerhead:

Even after watching the full "3x4" comment and response a few times, I still don't see how you are missing the fact that she's saying that the new common core is focused on explaining an answer, regardless of it's correctness. Yes, she said that she would be correcting wrong answers, but the focus is on the "how and why". This is getting old- :fingerhead:

"63% of students go into college needing a developmental math course.."


Sounds like the shortcomings of piss-poor teachers.

What a joke.


It is getting old. You support it. You say so above. Blame teachers? This fixes that, on a nationwide level. Meet standards or face consequences.


Never does she say incorrect is ok.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby WTN10 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:33 am

ohioboy wrote:yea, i hear that from my freshmen at times.



I have a profession that doesn't require me to explain myself to children except when I want some french fries; and that's after you've trained them.

glad to see you show up. bat signal went out?


More like, "Did you see what the babysitter said?" Just a suggestion I take in the spectacle.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby WTN10 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:36 am

Indaswamp wrote:if a student memorizes 3X4=12, then there is no way they figure out what 8X7 is (this is assuming that they have not been given the tables for 8 or 7 yet). I assume that this is the core of the issue at hand. A student that understands the fundamentals on HOW to calculate multiplication will be able to figure out 8X7 without ever being exposed to the shortcut tables...


And this is why I was terrible at math. I had multiple teachers along the way never explain "why" or "how." I always wondered why and how, and I would ask why and how, and there was never an adequate explanation. They just wanted me to memorize the formula. The problem was because I never understood why or how, I didn't know when I should use what. Thankfully English and literature were intuitive to me. I didn't need my inadequate educators.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby go get the bird » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:30 am

ohioboy wrote:It is getting old. You support it. You say so above. Blame teachers? This fixes that, on a nationwide level. Meet standards or face consequences.


Never does she say incorrect is ok.

No, I don't. I'd be more inclined to support it had she not painted the picture that she did.

Had she come out and said "We are going to be focusing on critical thinking skills, that children will use every day, in order to get them to the correct answer every time." I wouldn't have had to point out the idiocy of these women's ramblings. These women are CLEARLY stating that answers will hold less value than the explanations given, which is acceptable on a law school exams.

Here's my question. If this common core system is the new ticket to success, explain to me how anyone before it passed thier classes. Explain to me how previous generations were able to muster enough brain power to slide by and move on to become our parents.

I don't see it. All I see is the education system trying to justify passing along sub-par children. They are creating paths of less resistance in order to move them along like sheep, and of course, you're more than happy to adopt these ideals. :no:
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby go get the bird » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:54 am

Indaswamp wrote:if a student memorizes 3X4=12, then there is no way they figure out what 8X7 is (this is assuming that they have not been given the tables for 8 or 7 yet). I assume that this is the core of the issue at hand. A student that understands the fundamentals on HOW to calculate multiplication will be able to figure out 8X7 without ever being exposed to the shortcut tables...


swamp- I have no problem with teachers teaching the fundamentals, nor do I have a problem with them testing said fundamentals. That is the point of school, is it not?

I DO, however, 100% oppose giving partial credit for a wrong answer, whether it's on a test or a simple home work assignment.

Let's pretend you're little Timmy. As an 8th grader, you are in algebra. Throughout your class, you've been taught many things, namely simplification of equations, charting equations, and maybe some nonlinear equations.

Last Friday you were given a test that became more comprehensive towards the end. The beginning of the test was all equation simplifications. It then moved on to charting, and at the end, you had to chart the equation after you've simplified and solved for it's variables.

On the first part (10 questions), you missed half of the questions, namely the slightly more difficult ones. On the second part (5 questions), you get every single question right, and your charts are top notch. On the third part (5 questions), after failing to solve and simplify correctly, you make charts that accurately reflect your WRONG equation.

So, we've got a total of 20 questions, in which 10 were answered incorrectly. That's an F, correct?

Applying the logic of the woman in the video, you'd probably pass, even though you've technically failed. You've demonstrated that you CAN simplify equations and chart them, so long as they are the most basic of basic problems.

This is the problem I have. I don't care if you can explain to me why you got your wrong answer, I asked you for the RIGHT answer. If there is no RIGHT and WRONG, there is no point in testing.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby assateague » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:58 am

Well, you've certainly hit on one of the biggest problems in the education system in that last sentence, that's for sure.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:04 am

go get the bird wrote:This is the problem I have. I don't care if you can explain to me why you got your wrong answer, I asked you for the RIGHT answer. If there is no RIGHT and WRONG, there is no point in testing.

Thank you for showing exactly how students are conditioned to be employees by the education system in America today. Usually there is more than one way to do things, and multiple "right" answers in real life. but employers need people that think in terms of one right way to do things, thus we have the current system in place.....
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:16 am

go get the bird wrote:
ohioboy wrote:It is getting old. You support it. You say so above. Blame teachers? This fixes that, on a nationwide level. Meet standards or face consequences.


Never does she say incorrect is ok.

No, I don't. I'd be more inclined to support it had she not painted the picture that she did.

Had she come out and said "We are going to be focusing on critical thinking skills, that children will use every day, in order to get them to the correct answer every time." I wouldn't have had to point out the idiocy of these women's ramblings. These women are CLEARLY stating that answers will hold less value than the explanations given, which is acceptable on a law school exams.

Here's my question. If this common core system is the new ticket to success, explain to me how anyone before it passed thier classes. Explain to me how previous generations were able to muster enough brain power to slide by and move on to become our parents.

I don't see it. All I see is the education system trying to justify passing along sub-par children. They are creating paths of less resistance in order to move them along like sheep, and of course, you're more than happy to adopt these ideals. :no:


Don't know how old you are. But I would assume your parents were part of the problem, as were mine. As were my grandparents. They allowed the system to erode.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:17 am

WTN10 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:if a student memorizes 3X4=12, then there is no way they figure out what 8X7 is (this is assuming that they have not been given the tables for 8 or 7 yet). I assume that this is the core of the issue at hand. A student that understands the fundamentals on HOW to calculate multiplication will be able to figure out 8X7 without ever being exposed to the shortcut tables...


And this is why I was terrible at math. I had multiple teachers along the way never explain "why" or "how." I always wondered why and how, and I would ask why and how, and there was never an adequate explanation. They just wanted me to memorize the formula. The problem was because I never understood why or how, I didn't know when I should use what. Thankfully English and literature were intuitive to me. I didn't need my inadequate educators.

We are fixing that now.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby go get the bird » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:18 am

Indaswamp wrote:
go get the bird wrote:This is the problem I have. I don't care if you can explain to me why you got your wrong answer, I asked you for the RIGHT answer. If there is no RIGHT and WRONG, there is no point in testing.

Thank you for showing exactly how students are conditioned to be employees by the education system in America today. Usually there is more than one way to do things, and multiple "right" answers in real life. but employers need people that think in terms of one right way to do things, thus we have the current system in place.....


If you would be so kind as to explain how a wrong answer isn't actually wrong, I'd be more than happy to listen.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby go get the bird » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:19 am

ohioboy wrote:
go get the bird wrote:
ohioboy wrote:It is getting old. You support it. You say so above. Blame teachers? This fixes that, on a nationwide level. Meet standards or face consequences.


Never does she say incorrect is ok.

No, I don't. I'd be more inclined to support it had she not painted the picture that she did.

Had she come out and said "We are going to be focusing on critical thinking skills, that children will use every day, in order to get them to the correct answer every time." I wouldn't have had to point out the idiocy of these women's ramblings. These women are CLEARLY stating that answers will hold less value than the explanations given, which is acceptable on a law school exams.

Here's my question. If this common core system is the new ticket to success, explain to me how anyone before it passed thier classes. Explain to me how previous generations were able to muster enough brain power to slide by and move on to become our parents.

I don't see it. All I see is the education system trying to justify passing along sub-par children. They are creating paths of less resistance in order to move them along like sheep, and of course, you're more than happy to adopt these ideals. :no:


Don't know how old you are. But I would assume your parents were part of the problem, as were mine. As were my grandparents. They allowed the system to erode.


So you'd agree that, currently, we're just doing the best with what we have, right?
MackieKnife wrote:The moral of the story is...I'm retarded.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:20 am

go get the bird wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:if a student memorizes 3X4=12, then there is no way they figure out what 8X7 is (this is assuming that they have not been given the tables for 8 or 7 yet). I assume that this is the core of the issue at hand. A student that understands the fundamentals on HOW to calculate multiplication will be able to figure out 8X7 without ever being exposed to the shortcut tables...


swamp- I have no problem with teachers teaching the fundamentals, nor do I have a problem with them testing said fundamentals. That is the point of school, is it not?

I DO, however, 100% oppose giving partial credit for a wrong answer, whether it's on a test or a simple home work assignment.

Let's pretend you're little Timmy. As an 8th grader, you are in algebra. Throughout your class, you've been taught many things, namely simplification of equations, charting equations, and maybe some nonlinear equations.

Last Friday you were given a test that became more comprehensive towards the end. The beginning of the test was all equation simplifications. It then moved on to charting, and at the end, you had to chart the equation after you've simplified and solved for it's variables.

On the first part (10 questions), you missed half of the questions, namely the slightly more difficult ones. On the second part (5 questions), you get every single question right, and your charts are top notch. On the third part (5 questions), after failing to solve and simplify correctly, you make charts that accurately reflect your WRONG equation.

So, we've got a total of 20 questions, in which 10 were answered incorrectly. That's an F, correct?

Applying the logic of the woman in the video, you'd probably pass, even though you've technically failed. You've demonstrated that you CAN simplify equations and chart them, so long as they are the most basic of basic problems.

This is the problem I have. I don't care if you can explain to me why you got your wrong answer, I asked you for the RIGHT answer. If there is no RIGHT and WRONG, there is no point in testing.

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