Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:32 am

go get the bird wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
go get the bird wrote:This is the problem I have. I don't care if you can explain to me why you got your wrong answer, I asked you for the RIGHT answer. If there is no RIGHT and WRONG, there is no point in testing.

Thank you for showing exactly how students are conditioned to be employees by the education system in America today. Usually there is more than one way to do things, and multiple "right" answers in real life. but employers need people that think in terms of one right way to do things, thus we have the current system in place.....


If you would be so kind as to explain how a wrong answer isn't actually wrong, I'd be more than happy to listen.

In this specific example in math or in general? Math follows specific rules. that will never change.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby assateague » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:42 am

The how doesn't really matter to me. What DOES matter is the correct answer. As was said, there are as many different ways of thinking through a problem as there are people to think it. But there is only one right answer. So are we really to believe that it's a good thing for the focus to be on the infinite number of "hows" rather than the one "right"? That seems like nothing more than a recipe for disaster.
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Re: Ohio- This The

Postby assateague » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:43 am

assateague wrote:
ohioboy wrote:I can crack most kids. Bet I could you too. Mom/dad issues, molestation, abuse, neglect are the most common. Not saying that is your case, just suspect. You analyze for a living, right? Look at what you gripe about. Central authority. Follow them Reece's pieces and you might get there.


After further reflection, I figured I'd give you a chance to explain this one. So go ahead, Mr. Leadership. Knock yourself out.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:48 am

Indaswamp wrote:
go get the bird wrote:This is the problem I have. I don't care if you can explain to me why you got your wrong answer, I asked you for the RIGHT answer. If there is no RIGHT and WRONG, there is no point in testing.

Thank you for showing exactly how students are conditioned to be employees by the education system in America today. Usually there is more than one way to do things, and multiple "right" answers in real life. but employers need people that think in terms of one right way to do things, thus we have the current system in place.....

Only when it is subjective are their multiple right answers and that usually means multiple acceptable answers. I do generally agree with your premise.


ohioboy wrote:
WTN10 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:if a student memorizes 3X4=12, then there is no way they figure out what 8X7 is (this is assuming that they have not been given the tables for 8 or 7 yet). I assume that this is the core of the issue at hand. A student that understands the fundamentals on HOW to calculate multiplication will be able to figure out 8X7 without ever being exposed to the shortcut tables...


And this is why I was terrible at math. I had multiple teachers along the way never explain "why" or "how." I always wondered why and how, and I would ask why and how, and there was never an adequate explanation. They just wanted me to memorize the formula. The problem was because I never understood why or how, I didn't know when I should use what. Thankfully English and literature were intuitive to me. I didn't need my inadequate educators.

We are fixing that now.

:lol3: :lol3: :lol3:

I wish. How are they fixing it in Detroit, Chicago, DC, ...
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby go get the bird » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:57 am

Indaswamp wrote:
go get the bird wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
go get the bird wrote:This is the problem I have. I don't care if you can explain to me why you got your wrong answer, I asked you for the RIGHT answer. If there is no RIGHT and WRONG, there is no point in testing.

Thank you for showing exactly how students are conditioned to be employees by the education system in America today. Usually there is more than one way to do things, and multiple "right" answers in real life. but employers need people that think in terms of one right way to do things, thus we have the current system in place.....


If you would be so kind as to explain how a wrong answer isn't actually wrong, I'd be more than happy to listen.

In this specific example in math or in general? Math follows specific rules. that will never change.


In math, or english, or any subject, really. if I ask you what the captail of Russia is, and how it got it's name and you tell me that the capital of Russia is Ronald-Mcdonaldville, aren't you wrong, no matter how much you try to justify it?

assateague wrote:The how doesn't really matter to me. What DOES matter is the correct answer. As was said, there are as many different ways of thinking through a problem as there are people to think it. But there is only one right answer. So are we really to believe that it's a good thing for the focus to be on the infinite number of "hows" rather than the one "right"? That seems like nothing more than a recipe for disaster.


To further that - When I was in highschool, in a large school district in Dallas, I was given a math test. I got every single question right, but I failed the test. You want to know the reason? I didn't show the steps getting to the answer. Want to know why? Because I did them my head, rather than on paper.

My mother about had a heart attack when she found out. She chewed up and down the teacher's, and the principal's, arse for penalizing right answers. The prinicpal insisted my grade be changed.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:59 am

go get the bird wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
go get the bird wrote:
ohioboy wrote:It is getting old. You support it. You say so above. Blame teachers? This fixes that, on a nationwide level. Meet standards or face consequences.


Never does she say incorrect is ok.

No, I don't. I'd be more inclined to support it had she not painted the picture that she did.

Had she come out and said "We are going to be focusing on critical thinking skills, that children will use every day, in order to get them to the correct answer every time." I wouldn't have had to point out the idiocy of these women's ramblings. These women are CLEARLY stating that answers will hold less value than the explanations given, which is acceptable on a law school exams.

Here's my question. If this common core system is the new ticket to success, explain to me how anyone before it passed thier classes. Explain to me how previous generations were able to muster enough brain power to slide by and move on to become our parents.

I don't see it. All I see is the education system trying to justify passing along sub-par children. They are creating paths of less resistance in order to move them along like sheep, and of course, you're more than happy to adopt these ideals. :no:


Don't know how old you are. But I would assume your parents were part of the problem, as were mine. As were my grandparents. They allowed the system to erode.


So you'd agree that, currently, we're just doing the best with what we have, right?


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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:05 am

go get the bird wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
go get the bird wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
go get the bird wrote:This is the problem I have. I don't care if you can explain to me why you got your wrong answer, I asked you for the RIGHT answer. If there is no RIGHT and WRONG, there is no point in testing.

Thank you for showing exactly how students are conditioned to be employees by the education system in America today. Usually there is more than one way to do things, and multiple "right" answers in real life. but employers need people that think in terms of one right way to do things, thus we have the current system in place.....


If you would be so kind as to explain how a wrong answer isn't actually wrong, I'd be more than happy to listen.

In this specific example in math or in general? Math follows specific rules. that will never change.


In math, or english, or any subject, really. if I ask you what the captail of Russia is, and how it got it's name and you tell me that the capital of Russia is Ronald-Mcdonaldville, aren't you wrong, no matter how much you try to justify it?

assateague wrote:The how doesn't really matter to me. What DOES matter is the correct answer. As was said, there are as many different ways of thinking through a problem as there are people to think it. But there is only one right answer. So are we really to believe that it's a good thing for the focus to be on the infinite number of "hows" rather than the one "right"? That seems like nothing more than a recipe for disaster.


To further that - When I was in highschool, in a large school district in Dallas, I was given a math test. I got every single question right, but I failed the test. You want to know the reason? I didn't show the steps getting to the answer. Want to know why? Because I did them my head, rather than on paper.

My mother about had a heart attack when she found out. She chewed up and down the teacher's, and the principal's, arse for penalizing right answers. The prinicpal insisted my grade be changed.

never mind. you missed the point completely. Spinnerman got it though.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby go get the bird » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:25 am

Indaswamp wrote:
go get the bird wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
go get the bird wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
go get the bird wrote:This is the problem I have. I don't care if you can explain to me why you got your wrong answer, I asked you for the RIGHT answer. If there is no RIGHT and WRONG, there is no point in testing.

Thank you for showing exactly how students are conditioned to be employees by the education system in America today. Usually there is more than one way to do things, and multiple "right" answers in real life. but employers need people that think in terms of one right way to do things, thus we have the current system in place.....


If you would be so kind as to explain how a wrong answer isn't actually wrong, I'd be more than happy to listen.

In this specific example in math or in general? Math follows specific rules. that will never change.


In math, or english, or any subject, really. if I ask you what the captail of Russia is, and how it got it's name and you tell me that the capital of Russia is Ronald-Mcdonaldville, aren't you wrong, no matter how much you try to justify it?

assateague wrote:The how doesn't really matter to me. What DOES matter is the correct answer. As was said, there are as many different ways of thinking through a problem as there are people to think it. But there is only one right answer. So are we really to believe that it's a good thing for the focus to be on the infinite number of "hows" rather than the one "right"? That seems like nothing more than a recipe for disaster.


To further that - When I was in highschool, in a large school district in Dallas, I was given a math test. I got every single question right, but I failed the test. You want to know the reason? I didn't show the steps getting to the answer. Want to know why? Because I did them my head, rather than on paper.

My mother about had a heart attack when she found out. She chewed up and down the teacher's, and the principal's, arse for penalizing right answers. The prinicpal insisted my grade be changed.

never mind. you missed the point completely. Spinnerman got it though.

No, i understand what you're saying, but since Common Core focuses on math and English, which you've already said are based on rules that don't change, meaning there is generally only one acceptable answer to the problem, I assumed you were talking about other subjects. I wasn't talking about other subjects, I was talking about the areas affected by common core curriculum right now. Judging by the woman's response in the video, she has no idea how social studies, geography, and others will fall into the common core model. Looking at the common core site, I didn't see much in the way of anything other than math and English.

I'd agree there are certainly multiple answers to certain questions, in certain subjects. None of which, as far as I can tell, are math and English.

But this is just an opinion. I'm not one of those super educated teachers who can't solve simply math problems...
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:01 pm

Go get the bird, do you think the common core allows for incorrect answers?
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby go get the bird » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:10 pm

ohioboy wrote:Go get the bird, do you think the common core allows for incorrect answers?


As it's portrayed in the video, correctness' relevance is secondary to the explanation.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:48 pm

go get the bird wrote:
ohioboy wrote:Go get the bird, do you think the common core allows for incorrect answers?


As it's portrayed in the video, correctness' relevance is secondary to the explanation.


Ok.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:53 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
go get the bird wrote:This is the problem I have. I don't care if you can explain to me why you got your wrong answer, I asked you for the RIGHT answer. If there is no RIGHT and WRONG, there is no point in testing.

Thank you for showing exactly how students are conditioned to be employees by the education system in America today. Usually there is more than one way to do things, and multiple "right" answers in real life. but employers need people that think in terms of one right way to do things, thus we have the current system in place.....

Only when it is subjective are their multiple right answers and that usually means multiple acceptable answers. I do generally agree with your premise.


ohioboy wrote:
WTN10 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:if a student memorizes 3X4=12, then there is no way they figure out what 8X7 is (this is assuming that they have not been given the tables for 8 or 7 yet). I assume that this is the core of the issue at hand. A student that understands the fundamentals on HOW to calculate multiplication will be able to figure out 8X7 without ever being exposed to the shortcut tables...


And this is why I was terrible at math. I had multiple teachers along the way never explain "why" or "how." I always wondered why and how, and I would ask why and how, and there was never an adequate explanation. They just wanted me to memorize the formula. The problem was because I never understood why or how, I didn't know when I should use what. Thankfully English and literature were intuitive to me. I didn't need my inadequate educators.

We are fixing that now.

:lol3: :lol3: :lol3:

I wish. How are they fixing it in Detroit, Chicago, DC, ...


The common core will be nationwide, or at least that is the plan.
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Re: Ohio- This The

Postby ohioboy » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:54 pm

assateague wrote:
assateague wrote:
ohioboy wrote:I can crack most kids. Bet I could you too. Mom/dad issues, molestation, abuse, neglect are the most common. Not saying that is your case, just suspect. You analyze for a living, right? Look at what you gripe about. Central authority. Follow them Reece's pieces and you might get there.


After further reflection, I figured I'd give you a chance to explain this one. So go ahead, Mr. Leadership. Knock yourself out.

I think what I said was pretty clear and succinct.

I like mr leadership. Thanks.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby cartervj » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:34 pm

Trophies for everyone :lol3:
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:00 pm

It sounds as though we should just give up on teaching anything but the methodology of computer usage. No reason to understand the basics, which you can then extrapolate into other facets of life, just give them a tool and the knowledge to "get the RIGHT answer". Educational problem solved. :no:
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Re: Ohio- This The

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:07 pm

ohioboy wrote:
assateague wrote:
assateague wrote:
ohioboy wrote:I can crack most kids. Bet I could you too. Mom/dad issues, molestation, abuse, neglect are the most common. Not saying that is your case, just suspect. You analyze for a living, right? Look at what you gripe about. Central authority. Follow them Reece's pieces and you might get there.


After further reflection, I figured I'd give you a chance to explain this one. So go ahead, Mr. Leadership. Knock yourself out.

I think what I said was pretty clear and succinct.

I like mr leadership. Thanks.

That did come across pretty rough, Ohio. I hope it wasn't meant as easily inferred.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby dudejcb » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:29 pm

go get the bird wrote:
ohioboy wrote:Go get the bird, do you think the common core allows for incorrect answers?


As it's portrayed in the video, correctness' relevance is secondary to the explanation.
what video did you watch? It seemed pretty clear the correct answer is the most important thing, but that when a kid doesn't get the right answer, then you try to dig into his thought process to see where he went astray, and help him see the WAY.

Giving partial credit (for k-12 ) is, I believe, a means to provide some encouragement so those who don't "get it" right off the bat will, perhaps, be encouraged to stick with it and, heaven forbid, learn something rather than take up space. (Hate using the same word twice in a sentence. bad form)

Then again, giving them an F so they turn off to learning, and school in general, has worked so well up to this point, why not just keep doing it. Then when the dumb-asses get bored they can go out and shoot someone for kicks 'a la Oklahoma.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby cartervj » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:00 pm

Thought you Libs hated NO Child Left behind :lol3:

is this any better
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby go get the bird » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:56 pm

dudejcb wrote:
go get the bird wrote:
ohioboy wrote:Go get the bird, do you think the common core allows for incorrect answers?


As it's portrayed in the video, correctness' relevance is secondary to the explanation.
what video did you watch? It seemed pretty clear the correct answer is the most important thing, but that when a kid doesn't get the right answer, then you try to dig into his thought process to see where he went astray, and help him see the WAY.

Giving partial credit (for k-12 ) is, I believe, a means to provide some encouragement so those who don't "get it" right off the bat will, perhaps, be encouraged to stick with it and, heaven forbid, learn something rather than take up space. (Hate using the same word twice in a sentence. bad form)

Then again, giving them an F so they turn off to learning, and school in general, has worked so well up to this point, why not just keep doing it. Then when the dumb-asses get bored they can go out and shoot someone for kicks 'a la Oklahoma.

I watched the entire video posted by Ohio, not just the clip. Maybe you should do the same.

Let me ask you this- is it more important for a child's grade to reflect ability or their effort? How about a high schooler? What about an undergraduate? Masters program candidate? Doctoral candidate?

I'm not saying that common core is lacking merit, I'm saying that I think it's foolish to focus on effort, rather than results. The woman in the clip, and the other presenters for that matter, paints a picture that would give students a thumbs up for the actual answer and an actual grade for their reasoning ability, whether it's wrong or not. Aside from her intentions, the woman comes off as completely unprepared to talk about common core.

I spent the better part of almost two hours reading the common core website, as well as the South Dakota department of education site on our common core standards. I read about their changes in not only curriculum, but ideology as well. The common core track does focus on results, and is supposed to offer a more effective form of educating by reducing the amount a child must know, but increasing the complexities of the curriculum they do need to know. "Teach less, learn more"- one of the common core mottoes. They want to spend more time on less subjects.

My problem doesn't lie with the material, nor does it lie with the teachers (even if Ohio makes it easy). My biggest b!tch is the concept that would suggest that the method is more important than the outcome, or the overall feel of the aforementioned woman's video.

So here's my question, again. What's changed in the past 50 years that warrants these changes? What is causing this massive shift in the material we teach in math and English? Are students less capable of of learning in the slotted amount of time? Are our teachers less capable of properly educating? Do either of them actually give a chidt? I'd this common core just like hanging parts on a car and hoping one of them fixes the problem?
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Re: Ohio- This The

Postby assateague » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:08 pm

ohioboy wrote:
assateague wrote:
assateague wrote:
ohioboy wrote:I can crack most kids. Bet I could you too. Mom/dad issues, molestation, abuse, neglect are the most common. Not saying that is your case, just suspect. You analyze for a living, right? Look at what you gripe about. Central authority. Follow them Reece's pieces and you might get there.


After further reflection, I figured I'd give you a chance to explain this one. So go ahead, Mr. Leadership. Knock yourself out.

I think what I said was pretty clear and succinct.

I like mr leadership. Thanks.



No. No, it's not. So put aside the chickenshit passive-aggressive business, and explain what you meant by it.
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Re: Ohio- This The

Postby ohioboy » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:42 pm

assateague wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
assateague wrote:
assateague wrote:
ohioboy wrote:I can crack most kids. Bet I could you too. Mom/dad issues, molestation, abuse, neglect are the most common. Not saying that is your case, just suspect. You analyze for a living, right? Look at what you gripe about. Central authority. Follow them Reece's pieces and you might get there.


After further reflection, I figured I'd give you a chance to explain this one. So go ahead, Mr. Leadership. Knock yourself out.

I think what I said was pretty clear and succinct.

I like mr leadership. Thanks.



No. No, it's not. So put aside the chickenshit passive-aggressive business, and explain what you meant by it.

you use the same phrases all the time. you talk a big game. you sent out the bat signal last night for support. :thumbsup: you are smart (i know this and tell you this all the time, even though the opposite is not even close to true). i dont attack. i dont ignore questions ever (you do, but often say that you dont need to explain yourself to someone like me). you talk your way around a point if it does not meet your goals of the post.

my statement is directed at you, not your kids in any way. i dont attack kids, i like kids. i have kids. i teach kids. i like my job, a lot i fact, which is kid based. youth for better or worse keeps the keeper young in my opinion.

to answer your challenge, there is a root of all your issues, more than likely. not sure how you could have read that any other way. pretty simple.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:43 pm

Assa,

back to the OP, do you think this common core model is a bad one? as in, is figuring out where a kid went wrong in this model, bad? and to your OP, yes, you do pay for this "crap" just the same as you pay for anything else you dont agree with. and as you asked me, what are YOU (you capitalized this before i think) doing about it? i explained myself when asked and you said i was trotting out my resume i think. i thought i was answering your question. were you not employed at one point by the US Government?
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby assateague » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:41 pm

Because I disagree vehemently with what you believe I "have issues". I see. Speaks volumes. That seems to be quite the lazy way to attempt to support an argument.

And the fact that you chose to go down the path you did means I'm done with you. You make assertions about me and my parents? You can't educate a classroom full of half-interested high school kids, yet you deign to be an expert at analyzing someone? If you're too stupid to see that I don't talk my way around ANY topics, then there's not much I can do. So not only are you a chickenshit, but you are not terribly bright, either. Frankly, I'm so pissed off that I don't feel the need to aggravate myself any further. You're a fuckhead. And I most sincerely mean that. Goodbye.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:20 pm

assateague wrote:Because I disagree vehemently with what you believe I "have issues". I see. Speaks volumes. That seems to be quite the lazy way to attempt to support an argument.

And the fact that you chose to go down the path you did means I'm done with you. You make assertions about me and my parents? You can't educate a classroom full of half-interested high school kids, yet you deign to be an expert at analyzing someone? If you're too stupid to see that I don't talk my way around ANY topics, then there's not much I can do. So not only are you a chickenshit, but you are not terribly bright, either. Frankly, I'm so pissed off that I don't feel the need to aggravate myself any further. You're a fuckhead. And I most sincerely mean that. Goodbye.

C'mon AT. When you try to be so diplomatic the point becomes obscure. Just come right out and say what you think! :lol3:
I will give it to Ohio that both his abilities and his profession, of which he is justly proud, are constantly maligned here. So I think a little snippishness is to be tolerated. Perhaps a little too far this time? Maybe, but I think we've all done it at one time or another.
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Re: Ohio- This The "Discussion"?

Postby ohioboy » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:27 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:
assateague wrote:Because I disagree vehemently with what you believe I "have issues". I see. Speaks volumes. That seems to be quite the lazy way to attempt to support an argument.

And the fact that you chose to go down the path you did means I'm done with you. You make assertions about me and my parents? You can't educate a classroom full of half-interested high school kids, yet you deign to be an expert at analyzing someone? If you're too stupid to see that I don't talk my way around ANY topics, then there's not much I can do. So not only are you a chickenshit, but you are not terribly bright, either. Frankly, I'm so pissed off that I don't feel the need to aggravate myself any further. You're a fuckhead. And I most sincerely mean that. Goodbye.

C'mon AT. When you try to be so diplomatic the point becomes obscure. Just come right out and say what you think! :lol3:
I will give it to Ohio that both his abilities and his profession, of which he is justly proud, are constantly maligned here. So I think a little snippishness is to be tolerated. Perhaps a little too far this time? Maybe, but I think we've all done it at one time or another.


Jim, apparently i hit a button. I think my reaction and his will speak for themselves. The thread is directed at me. Fair. I push back and he does not like that. Bullies dont like it when things dont go thier way.



and who knew chickenshit and fuckhead would make it through the filters.
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