four wheeler engine mudmotor build

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four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby mud777 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:46 pm

I'm making a mudmotor out of a 1984 Honda trx 4wheeler engine I been working on it 3weeks now its been a challenge bout its starting to take shape
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby mud777 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:45 pm

I still got a ways to go but its Geting there
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby QuackerSmacker498 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:02 pm

Wow, it appears that you are using the transmission from the ATV as well. I am interested to see what kind of performance you can obtain from the 4-5 speed tranny. Cool concept. Hope it works for you! :thumbsup:
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby mud777 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:18 pm

My transom mount I got off a 1976 20hp mercury
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby pk38 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:37 pm

mud777 wrote:I'm making a mudmotor out of a 1984 Honda trx 4wheeler engine I been working on it 3weeks now its been a challenge bout its starting to take shape


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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby Erich_870 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:17 am

Cool! Post some videos of that thing in action!
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby mud777 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:44 pm

I will as soon as I can
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby gearhead80 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:59 pm

What size is that? The 200??
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby QuackerSmacker498 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:26 pm

My guess is that, as you shift gears in the water under load, the prop will want to climb out of the water. Just a guess!!!! Might need something like a spring to help keep it down. I'm going out on a limb on this, but I think you are one of the first persons to use a multi speed transmission for a surface drive. Might want to talk to some pros about prop pitch and cup. That's all going to vary/change as you shift gears. My guess is you will find a combination of gears that will work best like 2nd and 3rd. But I imagine 1st and or 4th will be toooo low or took high. Either way, if it works, I bet you will start seeing the manufacturers developing multi speed low horsepower engines that are capable of the same performance as high HP motors. Patent it quick if it works!!!!!!
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby mud777 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:50 pm

It's a 1984 Honda trx 200 with reverse its got 5 high gears and 5 low gears and its any body guess at what its gonna do being that there's not another one like it to go off of just gonna have to put it in the water and see what happens .
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby handyandy » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:28 pm

Looks awesome hopefully it works well. I've always thought about doing the same thing using a fourwheeler or motorcycle engine and trying to use the transmission as well. Just have never felt like getting a old one to use for it, and haven't had the time. Good luck with it and keep us posted.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby duckslayer74 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:38 pm

Way cool project, hope it works. Will you be able to use the reverse gear?
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby troutman561 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:07 pm

I'm very interested to see how this turns out. I could see a 400ex motor doing well in this application if it works.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby Kismet » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:28 pm

Question:

On land, the wheels of the vehicle in motion as you shift gears maintain momentum and keep the drive moving,

but, in water with a propellor, once the drive force stops, wouldn't the water act as a braking force and with the lighter
weight of the blades vs wheels and 4 whlr body weight---in effect, stop the shaft and then the next gear would have to attempt to bring the entire shaft/prop assembly back up from a slow, or stopped, state of being?


Or am I just not getting the whole physics of the deal?
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby mud777 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:59 pm

The Reverse still works It should , who knows how this beast is gonna run it may work it may not we gonna have to put it in the water and find out.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby gearhead80 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:18 am

mud777 wrote:The Reverse still works It should , who knows how this beast is gonna run it may work it may not we gonna have to put it in the water and find out.


I've wanted to do this with a big bore like 600 or bigger with the cvt trans. Just havent had the extra funds for such a project. I think it would rip. What size boat will this be going on?
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby okduckdude » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:07 am

Have you done a dry run yet?
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby 4riverman » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:30 pm

What are you going to put it on?
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby T Man » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:43 pm

I am curious about the torque load put on the transmission that it was never designed to take. What is the final drive ratio of the tranmission? In my head you will have to shift it backwards (4-1 instead of 1-4) to keep the prop speed in the ideal area, and dialing in prop size and pitch is going to be a nightmare. "Whats your rpm at wot?", "ummm in what gear?" This will be pretty cool if you can fund the project through to completion.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby gearhead80 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:23 am

Apparently some on here have never really been around 4-wheelers or really seen what they are capable of. The trans will more than handle what's going to be on the other end of the shaft. Think about the rolling resistance in the tires and the wieght of a quad vs turning that prop in water or mud. Think about the shock that is transmitted through the trans of on of these things while just riding it. The abuse it's designed to handle in rough terrain while on the throttle far more than most will ever pit it through.

People need to get rid of the idea that lawn mover engines are the best for mud motor applications. News flash people, they work ok, the main reason they are used is because of the simplicity, cost and ease to obtain for manufacturing. Why do think there are guys modding the piss out of them? Cuz they are TURDS!!! Yes they will get you places an outboard can't go.

Yes in this project he will prolly find one or 2 gears that work best for prop size/pitch. But it will work as long as he is not trying to run it on a 20' boat. Gear reduction it a wonderful thing when it comes to torque multiplication.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby 2500hdon37s » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:52 am

Kismet wrote:Question:

On land, the wheels of the vehicle in motion as you shift gears maintain momentum and keep the drive moving,

but, in water with a propellor, once the drive force stops, wouldn't the water act as a braking force and with the lighter
weight of the blades vs wheels and 4 whlr body weight---in effect, stop the shaft and then the next gear would have to attempt to bring the entire shaft/prop assembly back up from a slow, or stopped, state of being?


Or am I just not getting the whole physics of the deal?

that shouldnt be a problem, even if he does stop in say 3rd gear the motor/ trans combo will easily make enough torque to get it spinning again and not lug down hard unless he is running some outrages prop. you gotta think that 4-wheeler in running condition, rider, and a full tank of gas weighs 600+lbs and then it still has some good giddy up...
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby Kismet » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:41 am

that shouldnt be a problem, even if he does stop in say 3rd gear the motor/ trans combo will easily make enough torque to get it spinning again and not lug down hard unless he is running some outrages prop. you gotta think that 4-wheeler in running condition, rider, and a full tank of gas weighs 600+lbs and then it still has some good giddy up...


Thank you. For a while there, I worried that OP might have thought I was being critical. Actually, I think it is a neat idea, and like innovative thinking...in anything, really.

Appreciate your knowledge and response.

:smile:
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby gearhead80 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:51 am

2500hdon37s wrote:
Kismet wrote:Question:

On land, the wheels of the vehicle in motion as you shift gears maintain momentum and keep the drive moving,

but, in water with a propellor, once the drive force stops, wouldn't the water act as a braking force and with the lighter
weight of the blades vs wheels and 4 whlr body weight---in effect, stop the shaft and then the next gear would have to attempt to bring the entire shaft/prop assembly back up from a slow, or stopped, state of being?


Or am I just not getting the whole physics of the deal?

that shouldnt be a problem, even if he does stop in say 3rd gear the motor/ trans combo will easily make enough torque to get it spinning again and not lug down hard unless he is running some outrages prop. you gotta think that 4-wheeler in running condition, rider, and a full tank of gas weighs 600+lbs and then it still has some good giddy up...


Good points here.. Plus if he does decide to shift the prop isn't going to stop spinning. Does the quad have to stop each time you shift? NO!! I say throw her in the water and let it rip. Be awesome banging gears going across the marsh!!!!
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby T Man » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:03 pm

gearhead80 wrote:Apparently some on here have never really been around 4-wheelers or really seen what they are capable of.


And apparently you have never been around propeller driven marine engines and know what they are capable of.

gearhead80 wrote: The trans will more than handle what's going to be on the other end of the shaft. Think about the rolling resistance in the tires and the wieght of a quad vs turning that prop in water or mud. Think about the shock that is transmitted through the trans of on of these things while just riding it. The abuse it's designed to handle in rough terrain while on the throttle far more than most will ever pit it through.


Slow down cowboy, before you get your panties in a twist, you need to realize that the conditions an outboard or mud motor are subjected to are nothing like conditions faced on land. People have raised questions about the theoretical limitations of the system. On a 4 wheeler, there are more places for the shock loads to be absorbed between the ground and the trans output shaft...sidewalls of the tires, gear lash, even the suspension will eat some of the torque loads imposed on the trans. These are not there on a mud motor. It is a direct connection from the prop to the transmission

gearhead80 wrote:People need to get rid of the idea that lawn mover engines are the best for mud motor applications. News flash people, they work ok, the main reason they are used is because of the simplicity, cost and ease to obtain for manufacturing. Why do think there are guys modding the piss out of them? Cuz they are TURDS!!! Yes they will get you places an outboard can't go.


People use lawn mower engines because they provide ample torque while still small and light enough package to put it on the transom of a boat and not sink it. A boat will have to displace a certain amount to float a heavy motor/trans combo. The heavier the load, the more will have to be displaced. More displacement=more wetted surface. More wetted surface=more drag to overcome.


gearhead80 wrote:Yes in this project he will prolly find one or 2 gears that work best for prop size/pitch. But it will work as long as he is not trying to run it on a 20' boat. Gear reduction it a wonderful thing when it comes to torque multiplication.


Propping a motor is unlike anything else in the automotive/mechanical field. The whole process is completely subjective with too many variables to have a set in stone formula, but it comes down to this. A prop will run most efficiently at a certain rpm. Go above that rpm and you cavitate, go below that and you aren't running efficiently. (Efficiency is not the same as his fuel burn rate) Most mud motors run in a lower rpm than outboards. This lower rpm, but higher torque allows them to spin props with completely different geometries. I say all of that to say this, if he tries to find a gear to run it in, hes going to fail sorely. Instead, he needs to find an rpm to prop to, and hope that the transmission is geared close enough that he can keep it close to that sweet spot while he quickly shifts. (Personally speaking, mud motors are a handfull as they are, add in changing gears...no thanks.) Once he comes off the clutch on a shift, there will be a massive torque load applied back to the prop..see the first quote reply...

If he decides to pick only one gear to run it in, what has he gained over running a transmission-less motor?

gearhead80 wrote:Good points here.. Plus if he does decide to shift the prop isn't going to stop spinning. Does the quad have to stop each time you shift? NO!!


The physics are apples to oranges here. When the clutch is engaged on a 4 wheeler, the forward momentum of the driveline allows for less of a shock to the system when the clutch is released. When the clutch is engaged in the water, there will be nothing keeping the prop spinning, so unless he is lighting quick, it will stop. Watch an outboard prop when the rpm is dropped from WOT to neutral; it stops almost immediately. There is no park on an outboard. There is F, N, and R, so if the prop isnt turning it is in neutral. Look how quickly the prop stops at :27.





The viscosity of water immediately acts as a brake as soon as power stops being applied...especially if the boat is drifting (what it would be doing once he applied the clutch). In water, as speed goes up, resistance increases as well. (Picture shows airspeed, but since air is classified as a fluid, the graph is still the same) Form Drag is the curve that is relevant here.

Image



I personally don't think he will ever be "banging gears in the marsh" because of the lack of continuous torque on the prop. An automatic transmission would work, but then you have a loss of efficiency
.

What I do think he will have is a HEAVY longtail setup with reverse, which isnt so bad. Turning a boat around with a 4' long tail in a narrow channel is a challenge. The physics and empirical evidence are against him.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby Kismet » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:16 pm

Hence, my inquiry.

(although with a lot less knowledge on my part. :lol3: )
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