four wheeler engine mudmotor build

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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby T Man » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:44 pm

The more I think about it, a surface drive with a CVT might be doable, weight would still be an issue though.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby handyandy » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:57 pm

A engine with a CVT transmission would be pretty awesome and probably would work better. But I assume he is just working with what he already had and I think its awesome project. I give him a lot credit for doing it. Will he be able to shift through every gear I doubt it. But depending on what prop he goes with he may have two gears that are close in ratio that work to give him the correct rpm range for the prop. And he will have a reverse which is nice. The best engine and trans combo I can think of for a mudmotor application would be a snowbile engine. Most were pretty good sized two stroke air cooled engines with a cvt. If I had a old snowmobile lying around I would try it. It's hard for me to want to go out and buy a snowmobile or four wheeler with a cvt to cut it up for a experimental boat engine project. If this guy had a old four wheeler he was willing to sacrifice great. I think it's awesome and hope he can get it to work he was at least willing to try.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby QuackerSmacker498 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:33 pm

T man I get the physics of it and I have seen older jet speed boats with a splitter transmission. I bet it possible with this setup because it is a surface drive type motor. Similar concept but not the same because its not jet propulsion.

Anyways we can all sword fight over this, or let the guy have a fun project.

It will be interesting to see how it all works out.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby gearhead80 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:33 pm

I'm not arguing they are build for 2 completely different uses. I was just saying they will take way more abuse than people think they will. I raced MX on a quad for several years and I can't think of something much more abusive for a drivetrain than that. No lift shifts and only using the clutch when you come into a corner and the start. Lap after lap and not having trans issues. Going through whoop sections with the throttle pinned. I could go on but you get the point. I have witnessed other scenarios on all kinds of other machines that just prove they will take some major abuse. I'm not going to is was they way they were intended to be used, but non the less.

As far as the manufacturing point. Yes they do make ample torque being a v-twin design. But, an the other hand don't tell me there isn't another engine/engine trans combo out there that would work better but costs way more. Those were my points since it seems people always want to shoot projects like this down when someone starts them.

But this is a forum and the next to guy to post always knows way more than the last guy to post. It's proven. :thumbsup:
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby malrdmasher » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:27 pm

Hell ya. I hope it works. Probly will. Post some video when u get it dialed in. I took a kids gokart and dropped a 600cc snowmobile engine into it and ran no transmission. Went clutch straight to axle it had a slow take off but it did turn a 10 mph kart into a 80 mph kart
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby JAXcrisp » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:24 am

Any news?
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby mudpack » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:45 pm

gearhead80 wrote:People need to get rid of the idea that lawn mover engines are the best for mud motor applications. News flash people, they work ok, the main reason they are used is because of the simplicity, cost and ease to obtain for manufacturing. Why do think there are guys modding the piss out of them? Cuz they are TURDS!!! Yes they will get you places an outboard can't go.


Utility engines are also lighter in weight for their power. That 200 Honda will put out about 12-14 horsepower and weighs twice what a 13hp Honda utility engine weighs. Steel gears and multi-plate clutches are not exactly feathers. The multi-speed transmission will be wasted on a mud motor.

I think it is a VERY cool project, however, and hope he can make it work. :thumbsup:
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby T Man » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:11 pm

mudpack wrote:
gearhead80 wrote:People need to get rid of the idea that lawn mover engines are the best for mud motor applications. News flash people, they work ok, the main reason they are used is because of the simplicity, cost and ease to obtain for manufacturing. Why do think there are guys modding the piss out of them? Cuz they are TURDS!!! Yes they will get you places an outboard can't go.


Utility engines are also lighter in weight for their power. That 200 Honda will put out about 12-14 horsepower and weighs twice what a 13hp Honda utility engine weighs. Steel gears and multi-plate clutches are not exactly feathers. The multi-speed transmission will be wasted on a mud motor.

I think it is a VERY cool project, however, and hope he can make it work. :thumbsup:



Dangit mudpack, quit raining on this guys parade. Hes already informed me of how I am completely wrong about the waste of gearing on the mud motor. :lol3: :lol3: :lol3:

When are we going to get togther for an SEK hunt?
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby gearhead80 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:26 pm

mudpack wrote:
gearhead80 wrote:People need to get rid of the idea that lawn mover engines are the best for mud motor applications. News flash people, they work ok, the main reason they are used is because of the simplicity, cost and ease to obtain for manufacturing. Why do think there are guys modding the piss out of them? Cuz they are TURDS!!! Yes they will get you places an outboard can't go.


Utility engines are also lighter in weight for their power. That 200 Honda will put out about 12-14 horsepower and weighs twice what a 13hp Honda utility engine weighs. Steel gears and multi-plate clutches are not exactly feathers. The multi-speed transmission will be wasted on a mud motor.

I think it is a VERY cool project, however, and hope he can make it work. :thumbsup:


That 200cc quad engine and trans weighs around 60lbs. Your utility honda 13hp engine weighs anywhere from 60-80 depending on configuration. Put it this way, an entire XR 200 honda dirtbike only weighs 222lbs. So try again at your twice the weight.. All I know is I could take my 450cc quad motor and trans out and throw it around. I'd be suprised if it weighed 100lbs at 50hp.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby T Man » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:14 am

gearhead80 wrote:
mudpack wrote:
gearhead80 wrote:People need to get rid of the idea that lawn mover engines are the best for mud motor applications. News flash people, they work ok, the main reason they are used is because of the simplicity, cost and ease to obtain for manufacturing. Why do think there are guys modding the piss out of them? Cuz they are TURDS!!! Yes they will get you places an outboard can't go.


Utility engines are also lighter in weight for their power. That 200 Honda will put out about 12-14 horsepower and weighs twice what a 13hp Honda utility engine weighs. Steel gears and multi-plate clutches are not exactly feathers. The multi-speed transmission will be wasted on a mud motor.

I think it is a VERY cool project, however, and hope he can make it work. :thumbsup:


That 200cc quad engine and trans weighs around 60lbs. Your utility honda 13hp engine weighs anywhere from 60-80 depending on configuration. Put it this way, an entire XR 200 honda dirtbike only weighs 222lbs. So try again at your twice the weight.. All I know is I could take my 450cc quad motor and trans out and throw it around. I'd be suprised if it weighed 100lbs at 50hp.


Package weight is irrelevant. The only way a multi speed transmisison works on a boat is when they have high pitch props that spin at high rpms with low torque like high speed catamarans and cigarette boats. They spin props with crazy pitch that just absolutely wouldnt be able to spin without a 2 speed transmission. This is the exact opposite of what a mud motor needs. A mud motor has a prop more similar to a tugboat than a high performance boat.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby gearhead80 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:04 am

You're right about the weight to a point. But I'm just proving that people keep spewing information out on here that is inaccurate. And yes a mud motor prop is not like an outboard prop, it's more like an auger actually.

So the utility motor brought up red lines at 3,600 rpm. So if you use this or a quad engine or any similar engine and achieve similar output shaft speeds, tell me again how that won't work?? :huh: Plus it'll be even more flexable with different gearing options for different situations. You think whatever you want though. :thumbsup:
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby okduckdude » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:33 am

Just post a video of it to put prove it works or didn't work! We demand answers! We demand a response! We demand higher speeds and more efficient output from a mud motor! :yes:
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby T Man » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:55 am

gearhead80 wrote:You're right about the weight to a point. But I'm just proving that people keep spewing information out on here that is inaccurate. And yes a mud motor prop is not like an outboard prop, it's more like an auger actually.

So the utility motor brought up red lines at 3,600 rpm. So if you use this or a quad engine or any similar engine and achieve similar output shaft speeds, tell me again how that won't work?? :huh: Plus it'll be even more flexable with different gearing options for different situations. You think whatever you want though. :thumbsup:



You dont get it. A prop is built to have certain qualities, and is always a series of tradeoffs. A mud motor prop usually has really low pitch numbers. For example take a 9x4 prop which has about 4" pitch, which means that with each revolution it moves 4" forward in the water with perfect efficiency. You will never have perfect efficiency in a propeller so lets be generous and call it 10% slip. NO matter how fast you spin that prop, you are always going to have the same pitch on the propeller. It is always going to move at a little less than 4" forward for each revolution of the shaft. The limitation comes with the physics of the water over the blade. You spin that prop past a certain point and you will lower the pressure on the backside of the blade so much the water actually boils. Once you cavitate, you loose efficiency big time. The only way to fight this is to have a prop built for a certain shaft rpm. You run under that rpm, you lose efficiency, you run over that rpm you lose efficiency.

You want to run fast, you have got to build a prop with big pitch numbers and run it at its ideal rpm, but big pitch isn't conducive to low end torque and slogging through mud.

You seem to have a little knowledge about dirtbikes, but clearly none about outboard motors.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby gearhead80 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:38 am

Do you have reading comprehension problems?? haha yes I have no knowledge of boats or props or engines. You just keep talking in circles about props and slip. Congrats you read some info on-line. You keep explaining outboard props, then you say mud motor props are totally different. I was talking about shaft speed in general. An outboard prop has cupping. From what I've seen of mud motor props they seem almost reverse cupped. So yes they will only work at certain speeds, more like an auger. There are different prop options out there and there is getting to be more. I can tell you one thing, output shaft speeds of equal speed will have the same affect with the same prop. But maybe you're too smart to understand that. But I clearly don't get it. :huh:

So smarty pants. What prop size and pitch should I run on my 1850 true flat bottom tunnel boat with a 60 2 stroke yamaha for optimum performance? How fast should it run?? Weighs about 1000lbs. Lets see if you're even close to the testing I've done cause I'm clueless..... :bow:
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby whaknstak » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:28 am

Cool project. Put it together, mount it, and run it. The result will speak for itself. And then post it up of course as we are all interested in the final outcome
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby T Man » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:35 am

gearhead80 wrote:Do you have reading comprehension problems?? haha yes I have no knowledge of boats or props or engines.


So quit trying to explain to me how I am wrong about the prop being the limiting factor of the geared setup.

gearhead80 wrote: You just keep talking in circles about props and slip.


Because I keep hoping you will eventually understand.

gearhead80 wrote: Congrats you read some info on-line.


Try it sometime. There is a wealth of knowledge out there. It won't make you an expert in a subject, but having a little knowledge base will also keep you from looking like an ass.

gearhead80 wrote: You keep explaining outboard props, then you say mud motor props are totally different.


The blade shape is different because they are designed to work in different ways, however the way in which they apply power to the water is the same.

gearhead80 wrote: I was talking about shaft speed in general.


:huh: :huh:

gearhead80 wrote: An outboard prop has cupping. From what I've seen of mud motor props they seem almost reverse cupped.


Then youve seen wrong. All props will have a small amount of cup to them.

gearhead80 wrote: So yes they will only work at certain speeds, more like an auger.


Its not a speed issue, it comes back to prop blade pitch and slip.

gearhead80 wrote: There are different prop options out there and there is getting to be more.


Your point? You cant have a prop designed to displace a large amount of water at low rpm (mud motor type prop) and still move the boat at speeds similar to an outboard.

gearhead80 wrote: I can tell you one thing, output shaft speeds of equal speed will have the same affect with the same prop. But maybe you're too smart to understand that.


What does that have to do with anything?

gearhead80 wrote: But I clearly don't get it. :huh:


Clearly


gearhead80 wrote: So smarty pants. What prop size and pitch should I run on my 1850 true flat bottom tunnel boat with a 60 2 stroke yamaha for optimum performance? How fast should it run?? Weighs about 1000lbs. Lets see if you're even close to the testing I've done cause I'm clueless..... :bow:


That's a loaded question. Its impossible to tell with way too many variables. You can get close by knowing boat weight and size, and motor offset, but nothing will make up for on the water testing. Call a prop shop and ask them the same question and they will give you the same answer. Speed and performance will change between manufacturers even using the same size and pitch wheel. I swapped from a 10x13 Mercury prop to a 10x13 Solas prop and lost 2 mph out of my top end, but I can plane my boat 3 mph slower than with the old prop.

Clearly you refuse to accept the facts, and are dug in enough to not admit when you are wrong. To the original poster, good luck with your build. When all is said and done, you will at least have a long tail with reverse which is something very few people can say and will have a major benefit in tight situations. Sorry for whoring up your thread.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby mud777 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:54 pm

I've mounted it on the boat still got to thread the shaft for the prop and do a few other things, but its getting there. I did a dry run without a prop in the yard and every thing ran fine . It won't be much longer and it will be ready for a water test.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby gearhead80 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:18 pm

T Man wrote:
gearhead80 wrote:Do you have reading comprehension problems?? haha yes I have no knowledge of boats or props or engines.


So quit trying to explain to me how I am wrong about the prop being the limiting factor of the geared setup.

gearhead80 wrote: You just keep talking in circles about props and slip.


Because I keep hoping you will eventually understand.

gearhead80 wrote: Congrats you read some info on-line.


Try it sometime. There is a wealth of knowledge out there. It won't make you an expert in a subject, but having a little knowledge base will also keep you from looking like an ass.

gearhead80 wrote: You keep explaining outboard props, then you say mud motor props are totally different.


The blade shape is different because they are designed to work in different ways, however the way in which they apply power to the water is the same.

gearhead80 wrote: I was talking about shaft speed in general.


:huh: :huh:

gearhead80 wrote: An outboard prop has cupping. From what I've seen of mud motor props they seem almost reverse cupped.


Then youve seen wrong. All props will have a small amount of cup to them.

gearhead80 wrote: So yes they will only work at certain speeds, more like an auger.


Its not a speed issue, it comes back to prop blade pitch and slip.

gearhead80 wrote: There are different prop options out there and there is getting to be more.


Your point? You cant have a prop designed to displace a large amount of water at low rpm (mud motor type prop) and still move the boat at speeds similar to an outboard.

gearhead80 wrote: I can tell you one thing, output shaft speeds of equal speed will have the same affect with the same prop. But maybe you're too smart to understand that.


What does that have to do with anything?

gearhead80 wrote: But I clearly don't get it. :huh:


Clearly


gearhead80 wrote: So smarty pants. What prop size and pitch should I run on my 1850 true flat bottom tunnel boat with a 60 2 stroke yamaha for optimum performance? How fast should it run?? Weighs about 1000lbs. Lets see if you're even close to the testing I've done cause I'm clueless..... :bow:


That's a loaded question. Its impossible to tell with way too many variables. You can get close by knowing boat weight and size, and motor offset, but nothing will make up for on the water testing. Call a prop shop and ask them the same question and they will give you the same answer. Speed and performance will change between manufacturers even using the same size and pitch wheel. I swapped from a 10x13 Mercury prop to a 10x13 Solas prop and lost 2 mph out of my top end, but I can plane my boat 3 mph slower than with the old prop.

Clearly you refuse to accept the facts, and are dug in enough to not admit when you are wrong. To the original poster, good luck with your build. When all is said and done, you will at least have a long tail with reverse which is something very few people can say and will have a major benefit in tight situations. Sorry for whoring up your thread.


You're my new hero!! :fingerhead: I can admit when wrong when proven wrong. And you clearly have severe reading comprehension issue. Yea, good luck to this guy. I'm sure once propped right it will work just fine.. :thumbsup:
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby duckslayer74 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:40 pm

mud777 wrote:I've mounted it on the boat still got to thread the shaft for the prop and do a few other things, but its getting there. I did a dry run without a prop in the yard and every thing ran fine . It won't be much longer and it will be ready for a water test.


Can't wait to hear how it does, post up some pics when you get a chance.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby T Man » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:58 pm

mud777 wrote:I've mounted it on the boat still got to thread the shaft for the prop and do a few other things, but its getting there. I did a dry run without a prop in the yard and every thing ran fine . It won't be much longer and it will be ready for a water test.


Any updates?
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:01 am

T Man wrote:
gearhead80 wrote:You're right about the weight to a point. But I'm just proving that people keep spewing information out on here that is inaccurate. And yes a mud motor prop is not like an outboard prop, it's more like an auger actually.

So the utility motor brought up red lines at 3,600 rpm. So if you use this or a quad engine or any similar engine and achieve similar output shaft speeds, tell me again how that won't work?? :huh: Plus it'll be even more flexable with different gearing options for different situations. You think whatever you want though. :thumbsup:



You dont get it. A prop is built to have certain qualities, and is always a series of tradeoffs. A mud motor prop usually has really low pitch numbers. For example take a 9x4 prop which has about 4" pitch, which means that with each revolution it moves 4" forward in the water with perfect efficiency. You will never have perfect efficiency in a propeller so lets be generous and call it 10% slip. NO matter how fast you spin that prop, you are always going to have the same pitch on the propeller. It is always going to move at a little less than 4" forward for each revolution of the shaft. The limitation comes with the physics of the water over the blade. You spin that prop past a certain point and you will lower the pressure on the backside of the blade so much the water actually boils. Once you cavitate, you loose efficiency big time. The only way to fight this is to have a prop built for a certain shaft rpm. You run under that rpm, you lose efficiency, you run over that rpm you lose efficiency.

You want to run fast, you have got to build a prop with big pitch numbers and run it at its ideal rpm, but big pitch isn't conducive to low end torque and slogging through mud.

You seem to have a little knowledge about dirtbikes, but clearly none about outboard motors.

T Man is correct.

BTW, there use to be a mudboat builder here that build the "Way-Maker" Mudboat. This mudboat had aninfinitely adjustable variable pitch prop assembly. You had a lever you could position anywhere from 9" pitch forward to -4" pitch reverse. That is how you shift gears on water..... :thumbsup:

Best pic. I could find of the prop assembly:
Image
those blades rotate pitch....
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby T Man » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:34 am

Indaswamp wrote:T Man is correct.

BTW, there use to be a mudboat builder here that build the "Way-Maker" Mudboat. This mudboat had aninfinitely adjustable variable pitch prop assembly. You had a lever you could position anywhere from 9" pitch forward to -4" pitch reverse. That is how you shift gears on water..... :thumbsup:

Best pic. I could find of the prop assembly:
Image
those blades rotate pitch....


A legit mud boat, way cool. I am curious about the variable pitch setup on a mud boat. From what I have read, the variable pitch props are finicky, and are somewhat delicate on small applications. I would be worried about the mud and silt getting into the gearing leading to excessive wear.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby okduckdude » Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:42 am

I think this guy who supposedly built this motor was just a tease.


I bet the engine doesn't even run and tack welded some things on to tease us.....



Pictures or video of it running or it doesn't exist! :hammer: :hammer:
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:29 am

T Man wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:T Man is correct.

BTW, there use to be a mudboat builder here that build the "Way-Maker" Mudboat. This mudboat had aninfinitely adjustable variable pitch prop assembly. You had a lever you could position anywhere from 9" pitch forward to -4" pitch reverse. That is how you shift gears on water..... :thumbsup:

Best pic. I could find of the prop assembly:
Image
those blades rotate pitch....


A legit mud boat, way cool. I am curious about the variable pitch setup on a mud boat. From what I have read, the variable pitch props are finicky, and are somewhat delicate on small applications. I would be worried about the mud and silt getting into the gearing leading to excessive wear.

It was a pretty wear resistant patented design T Man. Not sure when exactly they shut down, but they did sell a lot of them across this state.
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Re: four wheeler engine mudmotor build

Postby mud777 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:05 pm

i put some video on youtube of the motor
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