Charcoal labs!

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Charcoal labs!

Postby Catdaddy89 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:13 pm

I am wanting to buy a charcoal and don't know very much about them. Can any of you help me out and possibly point me in the direction of a good breeder. I have heard about the issue of over-breeding and also about some skin condition that is affecting the silvers. I have not heard either way on the charcoals though. Any input will be appreciated.

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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby copterdoc » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:24 pm

Color dilution alopecia, doesn't care whether it's diluting brown, black or yellow.

Two recessives in the d locus, is two recessives in the d locus.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby copterdoc » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:48 pm

BB = black.
bb = chocolate.
Bb = black that carries hidden chocolate.

BBee = yellow that is black on the inside.
bbee = yellow that is chocolate on the inside.
Bbee = yellow that is black on the inside, but also carries hidden chocolate.
BBEe = black that carries hidden yellow.
bbEe = chocolate that carries hidden yellow.

BBEEdd = charcoal.
bbEEdd = silver.
BbEEdd = charcoal that carries hidden chocolate.
BBeedd = champagne that is black on the inside.
bbeedd = champagne that is chocolate on the inside.
Bbeedd = champagne that is black on the inside, and carries hidden chocolate.
BBEedd = charcoal that also carries hidden yellow.
BBEEDd = black that carries hidden dilution.
bbEEDd = chocolate that carries hidden dilution.
BbEeDd = black that carries hidden chocolate, yellow, and dilution.

That said, ALL dogs want to be Labs. And all Labs, want to be black.

The recessive d was eliminated from the breed, by the time the stud books were closed, and the breed standard established.
It was later reintroduced by unscrupulous breeders, outcrossing outside of the breed.

If a dog has A (let alone two) recessive d in it's DNA, it's not a Lab.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby T Man » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:35 pm

As usual, copterdoc has posted twice demonstrating how much more he knows than anyone else, insulted the original posters dog (or desired dog), AND not even answered the original posters question. :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
Botiz630 wrote:How much does an apostrophe cost down south? Must be quite a bit, based on how sparingly you use them.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Catdaddy89 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:04 am

Ha ha yeah so I guess it's still a lab right? I didn't see an "A" anywhere
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Catdaddy89 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:06 am

Nevermind I just re-read lol I guess I don't want a lab. Anyone know a good place to find a charcoal colored lab wannabe
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby sharris » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:19 am

copterdoc wrote:Color dilution alopecia, doesn't care whether it's diluting brown, black or yellow.

Two recessives in the d locus, is two recessives in the d locus.


Not technically color dilution alopecia since "alopecia" is hair loss. Just color dilution.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby i_willie12 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:23 am

Charcoal or silver "labs" are a cross between weimaraner's and lab's that arent labs :no: :no:
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Now if both parents are from hunting line then they can have the hunting instinct BUT most Weim's arent hunters anymore and these dogs are breed for COLOR only!!!!
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Catdaddy89 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:18 am

I was thinking that the charcoal was actually just a weird kick off and not actually a Weim/lab is that incorrect? I am aware of the W/L I was just under the impression that the char was a closer breed
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby WTN10 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:23 am

coptordoc represents the best the dog forum has to offer, and that's a sad commentary on the state of affairs here.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby labsforme » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:36 am

Charcoal, silver, etc are colors that are not recognized by the Labrador Retriever club and most do not have health clearances that can be verified. As a designer breed, I won't call them labs, they are bred for specific colors and may compound other genetic problems which are not divulged by the sellers. Most of them breed extensively to make money not better the Labrador Retriever. As far as proving Weimereiner in the background most will not do genetic tests to verify. Look at the eyes of many and they definately are not typical Lab eyes.
Why take a chance on a pup your going to want as a companion, hunting dog, etc for many years on something like that?

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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby WTN10 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:37 am

labsforme wrote:Charcoal, silver, etc are colors that are not recognized by the Labrador Retriever club and most do not have health clearances that can be verified. As a designer breed, I won't call them labs, they are bred for specific colors and may compound other genetic problems which are not divulged by the sellers. Most of them breed extensively to make money not better the Labrador Retriever. As far as proving Weimereiner in the background most will not do genetic tests to verify. Look at the eyes of many and they definately are not typical Lab eyes.
Why take a chance on a pup your going to want as a companion, hunting dog, etc for many years on something like that?

Jeff G


This guy just said what coptordoc did in a much more civil, kind fashion. Thanks for raising the bar.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby TCFarmer » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:11 am

labsforme wrote:Charcoal, silver, etc are colors that are not recognized by the Labrador Retriever club and most do not have health clearances that can be verified. As a designer breed, I won't call them labs, they are bred for specific colors and may compound other genetic problems which are not divulged by the sellers. Most of them breed extensively to make money not better the Labrador Retriever. As far as proving Weimereiner in the background most will not do genetic tests to verify. Look at the eyes of many and they definately are not typical Lab eyes.
Why take a chance on a pup your going to want as a companion, hunting dog, etc for many years on something like that?

Jeff G


I agree with Jeff. Even if you assume that charcoals are 100% lab, they are bred for color and not ability. When you breed for color from the small gene pool available, sometimes you have to sacrifice one trait(ability) for the trait you want to bring out (color).

WTN10 wrote:coptordoc represents the best the dog forum has to offer, and that's a sad commentary on the state of affairs here.


Says one of the guys who only contribute on this forum to tell everyone how awful the forum is.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby cominahead » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:43 am

silver creek Labrador
http://www.silvercreeklabrador.com/
contact billy he is with a group of silver lab breeders out of Montgomery tx
silver labs are not weim and lab mix
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Chaws » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:11 am

When people breed for color far outside of the normal 3 colors, you'll find yourself with less than satisfactory results if you're looking for a performance dog. All knowledge of the paired adults are thrown to the wind other than wanting to produce puppies with a certain color. Often times abilities aren't looked at in either of the parents, they just care that they'll make puppies with a certain look. Many times as well, health clearances aren't taken into consideration, health, skin problems, trainability, drive, performance, and soundness are far down on the list of the breeders cares for producing a good litter of puppies to further the breed and satisfy the desires of the prospective owners.

In other words, if you're looking for a dog to pick up birds for you, look elsewhere because the probability of every puppy being of sound nature/health and strong desire and trainability will be an afterthought. If you want a puppy for the kids and for the couch, consider saving the life of a dog from a local rescue. Rescue dogs are often older so you don't need to go through the puppy phases of pooping on your carpet and the late nigh trips to the back yard or the puppy chewing up the lady's favorite pair of shoes. Rescue dogs can be brought home to have a trial run and see if you like the dog or not and they need loving homes.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby labsforme » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:19 am

"silver creek Labrador
http://www.silvercreeklabrador.com/
contact billy he is with a group of silver lab breeders out of Montgomery tx
silver labs are not weim and lab mix"
I went to the website and they breed their dogs as companion dogs first. Not one word or mention of health clearances/certificates or pedigrees.Then they give the colors and show ( chocolate,yellow,black) that's because they can only be registered under those colors by AKC. Silver, charcoal, champaign, white ARE NOT RECOGNIZED NOR ACCEPTED COLORS.
Why take a chance as has been mentioned on something that you don't know what you are getting. The reference that if you want a pet then get a rescue LAB is spot on.

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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby dogyak » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:38 am

I agree with everything said here . Not completely about purity of the breed so much as about the potential health problems that seem to be associated with breeding solely for color . Weather it can hunt or not , if selecting for color means ignoring genetic problems like bad joints , a tendency to blindness (blue eyes) , a propensity for certain cancers , or other debilitating or life shortening conditions . As said , the very thing that makes it special is a disqualification with the parent org . :fingerhead:
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby bighop » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:50 pm

I guess my fox red is a genetic impossibility?
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby i_willie12 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:54 pm

bighop wrote:I guess my fox red is a genetic impossibility?


Nope just breed for color like the other... but at least red labs came from labs, dark yellow labs then they breed other dark yellow labs to each other and so on... SO they were breed for color first not health or work ability
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby bighop » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:21 pm

i_willie12 wrote:
bighop wrote:I guess my fox red is a genetic impossibility?


Nope just breed for color like the other... but at least red labs came from labs, dark yellow labs then they breed other dark yellow labs to each other and so on... SO they were breed for color first not health or work ability

Grampa did ok, I'm not too worried...
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Chaws » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:23 pm

The Fox Red color, if bought from a breeder the hyped up the color, then they are commonly bred for their color, however they have a genetic color makup as any other yellow lab unlike the Charcoal, silver, etc dogs. The Charcoals and Silvers have a different genetic color gene which is an extreme level of recessive with the dilute values in addition to chocolate. Yellow in genetics are identical whether the dog looks almost white and all the way to a fox red color, they're still yellow. Some dogs, even a few blacks that I'm aware of in the field trial games, just tend to throw darker yellow offspring.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby i_willie12 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:28 pm

bighop wrote:
i_willie12 wrote:
bighop wrote:I guess my fox red is a genetic impossibility?


Nope just breed for color like the other... but at least red labs came from labs, dark yellow labs then they breed other dark yellow labs to each other and so on... SO they were breed for color first not health or work ability

Grampa did ok, I'm not too worried...



Never said Red's arent labs or cant be great dogs Seen several that are BUT they were initially started for color, one guy like that dark color yellow lab and breed to another so on.... But they were labs!! You dog is registered yellow correct??
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby AnonymousDuck » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:20 pm

Don't get taken in by Silver Lab breeders, its a complete scam and it's not a true lab its a mix, aka "mutt" as stated, a Choco X Wiem. These breeders lie there butts off, it's how they make there money. :no:

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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby bighop » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:24 pm

i_willie12 wrote:
bighop wrote:
i_willie12 wrote:
bighop wrote:I guess my fox red is a genetic impossibility?


Nope just breed for color like the other... but at least red labs came from labs, dark yellow labs then they breed other dark yellow labs to each other and so on... SO they were breed for color first not health or work ability

Grampa did ok, I'm not too worried...



Never said Red's arent labs or cant be great dogs Seen several that are BUT they were initially started for color, one guy like that dark color yellow lab and breed to another so on.... But they were labs!! You dog is registered yellow correct??

Sure he is, they all are. And his brothers and sisters were all much lighter yellow, he was the only red in the litter.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Catdaddy89 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:31 pm

Well then why is a "red" which is only bred for color still a good dog but a charcoal a piece is chit? I'm not following y'all. You keep saying that they are junk and not labs but no one has told me a background or a breed cross. Why is there such a devout hate for the charcoal? I would also like to re-iterate I do not want a silver I want a charcoal. Is there a difference in the two? I hate to seem ungrateful forthe info you have given me but no one has really hit my question.
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