Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby flyndutchman » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:30 am

Lyman's manual lists the 2 3/4" paper base fed plastic hulls with 33 gr steel, fed 209a and sam 1 wad with 1 1/8 oz. Their data shows it going about 1380 but my testing has it going over 1400. I find the hulls vary in length a lot from box to box and even within the same box. I measure them and use the longest ones for larger pellets and shorter ones for smaller pellets. I found if I try to inc the powder even 1/2 gr, it is a low pressure load as listed per Lyman, the primers will start to back out and leak. I don't get great patterns out of the RSI wads with anything bigger than 4's or 5's though so I don't load it very much.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby Bug Doc » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:23 am

Alliant's site lists a 1-1/8oz load using a Fed GM hull and Precision's TUPR wad (32 gr Steel, 1425fps, 9600psi). Top Gun hulls can generally be substituted for GM hulls, typically resulting in slightly lower pressures and velocity. For instance, I tested the same load above with Top Gun hulls and HW13 shot, and got 1375 fps and 9000psi (I needed 1/2" of spacer with the denser shot). It would be impossible to determine if the drop in pressure/velocity is due to the different hull, compressible spacer, less side-pressure from the shorter shot column, or a combination of these factors, but likely you'll see very similar performance with this swap. If the velocity and patterns look good you could always send in a sample for pressure-testing, just to be sure.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby Jim Atlas » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:37 pm

From Reloading for Shotgunners:


Rem STS
Fed. 209A
35.5 g. A.Steel
Sam 1
1 oz steel shot 1546 fps @ 10,300 psi

Lymanns 5th lists the 1 oz load with 1 grain less powder for 1465 @ 10,700.
Last edited by Jim Atlas on Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby cannon » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:10 am

Jim Atlas wrote:From Reloading for Shotgunners:
Rem STS
Fed. 209A
32.5 g. A.Steel
Sam 1
1-1/8 oz steel shot
1428 fps @ 10,400 psi.

Rem STS
Fed. 209A
35.5 g. A.Steel
Sam 1
1 oz steel shot 1546 fps @ 10,300 psi

Lymanns 5th lists the 1 oz load with 1 grain less powder for 1465 @ 10,700.


That first load won't fit. Not in a million years, and would be over pressure if it did. Best I've been able to pull off in a tapered hull is a 492 grain load using a light charge of longshot, and I suspect that load to be dangerous.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby dukdropper » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:28 pm

Since we have talked about the 'Volumes' of hulls in this topic, I have all but a CHED hull for the comparison maybe Chris can add to it :yes: , I have some nice cut aways for the guys that havent seen and it really does help for ID etc. The top 3 are as stated, the federal on the right is the 'maximum load' High brass - that baby has some Volume. Also at the top of those 3 hulls are number values (in grains), I simply filled them with table salt, squaring the top off and weighing the salt. So we can call that volume by weight.
Also just because the subject included the Top Gun hull I added that cutaway, and next to it the other federal high brass with fiber base wad, and as you can see the Top Gun and that hull have the same fiber base wad.
And to further compare the two federal high brass hulls (brass coated steel head actually), one with the huge volume intregal basewad (compressed formed) and the other with the fiber (or paper as they say) base wad. These hulls are a bugger in the resize station with their tall steel head, I do them seperatly with my heavier solid steel ring- not to un-needingly stress the reloaders.

Load em up! :hammer: :beer: :yes:
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby 10gaOkie » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:28 pm

Duckdropper,
Nice work. I have compared quite a few 2 3/4 hulls and their volumes. Alot of my learning has come from trying to fit given loads in them. The largest volume hull I have come across is the old maroon Federal unibody hull. It was most common in 1 1/4oz steel shot loads. My MEC Sizemaster does the trick for sizing those tall base hulls and it isnt a problem. The Cheddite hull is next in volume followed closely by the old Activ hulls. Since both the Fed unibody and the Activs are hard to come by, I sort of drop them from being a useable source for hulls. BPI does offer a new clear plastic hull that is the equal to the old maroon Fed unibody. But starting with new bought hulls can be expensive when free hulls can be had at your local range.
The paper basewad hulls do offer a lower pressure but always have a reduced volume. I am not a fan of the fast 7/8oz or 1oz loads unless all of my shots are over decoys. I never get those conditions so its not in the picture for me hunting public spots.
I have found quite a few hulls that have slightly less volume than the ched hulls and work well for a sub. To sub them, I only have to reduce the pellet count four or five pellets. These are the orange Nobel Sport, purple Fiocchi, Diana, Keman, dark blue Rio and Mirage. The Mirage hulls, come in various colors and you have to watch the base wads in these as they tend to vary in two heights. Rios come in varous versions, only the dark blue trap hulls seem to have the higher volume needed.
Also the Fed GM hull has slightly less volume than the ched hull but unless you find them at the range, they are pricey to buy once fired.
Cheddite hulls can be found in the following,,,,,American Target, Challenger, Centurion, Kent Fasteel, Kent Trap, Tru-Tracer, Gamebore, Herters and Estate with brass base. New Ched hulls are readily available new from both BPI and PR.
If you are trying to load 1 1/8oz loads, I think the ched hull is the way to go. Its an excellent hull and not hard to come by if you know what to look for. There are no doubt other variations of the ched hull, I just havent run across them yet.

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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby bbs383ci » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:49 am

Hey ballistic products has the 1 1/8 oz wads. They are csd118 they are unslit as compared to the ones PR sales it's the same wad I bought them from both places and they are both bandp wads. It's just a pain to have to slit them but it goes kinds quick. Bring to work and do it on breaks. Lol.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby Jim Atlas » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:52 pm

cannon wrote:
Jim Atlas wrote:From Reloading for Shotgunners:
Rem STS
Fed. 209A
32.5 g. A.Steel
Sam 1
1-1/8 oz steel shot
1428 fps @ 10,400 psi.

Rem STS
Fed. 209A
35.5 g. A.Steel
Sam 1
1 oz steel shot 1546 fps @ 10,300 psi

Lymanns 5th lists the 1 oz load with 1 grain less powder for 1465 @ 10,700.


That first load won't fit. Not in a million years, and would be over pressure if it did. Best I've been able to pull off in a tapered hull is a 492 grain load using a light charge of longshot, and I suspect that load to be dangerous.


Looks like it's listed as being in a Rem plastic basewad hull on the alliant site. That's an awesome typo...
I'll depost it.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby cannon » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:19 pm

Jim Atlas wrote:
cannon wrote:
Jim Atlas wrote:From Reloading for Shotgunners:
Rem STS
Fed. 209A
32.5 g. A.Steel
Sam 1
1-1/8 oz steel shot
1428 fps @ 10,400 psi.

Rem STS
Fed. 209A
35.5 g. A.Steel
Sam 1
1 oz steel shot 1546 fps @ 10,300 psi

Lymanns 5th lists the 1 oz load with 1 grain less powder for 1465 @ 10,700.


That first load won't fit. Not in a million years, and would be over pressure if it did. Best I've been able to pull off in a tapered hull is a 492 grain load using a light charge of longshot, and I suspect that load to be dangerous.


Looks like it's listed as being in a Rem plastic basewad hull on the alliant site. That's an awesome typo...
I'll depost it.


Ahhh . . . now that makes sense. I was scratching my head, for sure.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:47 am

you can add Falcon shells from Target products to that list of cheddites :thumbsup: they ship clay loads all over the world. their sp36 #3lead is an absolutely awesome rabbit load..we used to shoot a case a day/night on a regular basis.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby 10gaOkie » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:16 am

They most likely never made it to the US. I have never seen any.

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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby 3200 man » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:24 am

There were 2 boxes of those Falcon loads at the Jackson Hole , WY gun show last weekend . They were a little on the $ side
so , I moved over and bought some Longshot and had a smile all-day long .
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby BBK » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:39 pm

Elvis Kiwi wrote:you can add Falcon shells from Target products to that list of cheddites :thumbsup: they ship clay loads all over the world. their sp36 #3lead is an absolutely awesome rabbit load..we used to shoot a case a day/night on a regular basis.


I was thinking holy cow #3 lead at rabbits? Then I realized english #3 is american #4. :lol3:
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby baltz526 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:05 pm

12ga fed top gun paper base, fed209a, LBC43, 114 steel #1 477gr, 32gr steel, 1500fps. You can get a few more pellets in the load, but with 114 #1 I get nice crimps with no problems. Using #3 steel you can fit the full 1 1/8oz easy. Use at own risk. Data is from old publication. I tried the load in Rio hulls, with lower velocity and patterns where not as nice.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:30 pm

BBK wrote:
Elvis Kiwi wrote:you can add Falcon shells from Target products to that list of cheddites :thumbsup: they ship clay loads all over the world. their sp36 #3lead is an absolutely awesome rabbit load..we used to shoot a case a day/night on a regular basis.


I was thinking holy cow #3 lead at rabbits? Then I realized english #3 is american #4. :lol3:

the standard duck load in N.Z. back in lead shot era was 1 1/4oz of lead #4s
We found the lead #3s patterned best and hit hardest..a lot of guys used them on barrel stretching ducks too...not sky busting just getting out there.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby kenner » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:04 am

baltz526 wrote:12ga fed top gun paper base, fed209a, LBC43, 114 steel #1 477gr, 32gr steel, 1500fps. You can get a few more pellets in the load, but with 114 #1 I get nice crimps with no problems. Using #3 steel you can fit the full 1 1/8oz easy. Use at own risk. Data is from old publication. I tried the load in Rio hulls, with lower velocity and patterns where not as nice.


Baltz: I was actually hoping to use these Top Gun hulls to make a chukar load, as you suggested,, 1-1/8oz #3s.

Is there truth to the posts that I can use Top Gun hulls for Gold Medals?... just expect lower velocities?
Could I just use RSI data for the GM and sub in the Top Gun?

Thanks all!!
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby 3200 man » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:53 am

Kenner

With those Top Gun hulls and loading CHUKAR loads of lead shot , use 12S3 wads , works great ! With a little buffer in
my loads I have extended the range for wild flushing birds .
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby Sagebrush » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:42 am

When using the Sam1 wad for my 2 3/4 hulls I found that the cup would hold :
450grs of #5 steel
430grs of #2 steel
Just a little light for a true 1 1/8oz payload.................. unless you went above the cup.

At least you have access to larger volume wads with the straight hull wads, which is a good thing.
The G12 holds about the same as the Sam1 so you do not need to try this wad for a 1 1/8oz steel load.

The 32 wad worked best for my 1 1/8 oz. loads.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:58 pm

3200 man wrote:Kenner

With those Top Gun hulls and loading CHUKAR loads of lead shot , use 12S3 wads , works great ! With a little buffer in
my loads I have extended the range for wild flushing birds .

so is lead ok for upland over there???
if so :huh: you will probably buy nearly as good as you can load in clay target type shells cheaper than you can make them.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby BBK » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:04 pm

Lead upland loads are stupid expensive here. I reload 1 1/4 5's for about $6 a box, they are $12.99 a box for basic super-x loads and right around $20 for express long range, wingshok, and prairie storm here locally.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby DoubleDutchChuck » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:35 pm

3200 man wrote:Kenner

With those Top Gun hulls and loading CHUKAR loads of lead shot , use 12S3 wads , works great ! With a little buffer in
my loads I have extended the range for wild flushing birds .


I agree with Larry. Unless you're hunting chukars in an area that specifies steel shot, use lead. Why handicap yourself with steel? There are quite a few recipes in the Lyman manual for recipes with lead shot, in the Fed. hull w/ paper basewad.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby Bug Doc » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:06 pm

kenner wrote:
Is there truth to the posts that I can use Top Gun hulls for Gold Medals?... just expect lower velocities?
Could I just use RSI data for the GM and sub in the Top Gun?

Thanks all!!


Check out this table:

http://www.federalpremium.com/downloads ... ngData.pdf

When you compare the GM and TG loads, they are very, very similar.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:38 pm

BBK wrote:Lead upland loads are stupid expensive here. I reload 1 1/4 5's for about $6 a box, they are $12.99 a box for basic super-x loads and right around $20 for express long range, wingshok, and prairie storm here locally.

wow thats a shock..we pay $13-15NZ a box for reasonable lead loads as for superX being a basic load..they are an awesome load.and if my calculator is right whats 1/2 a dollar a shot???? how many shots are you likely to fire a day after chucks??? now quail I can understand but then you would be happy with clay loads which are dirt cheap.
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby BBK » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:57 pm

With me shooting? Not 1 shot per bird that's for sure!!! Those little suckers fly fast, even on the preserves.

We don't have a ton of options for lead game loads. Remington game load, federal game-shok, and super-x for the basic loads. Then there are the fiocchi's but they are a better load than those IMO, about the same price as super-x though. That's about all we have for general lead hunting loads.

Of course we have the target/trap loads, 1oz and 1 1/8 of 7.5 and 8.. but I don't think anyone would consider those hunting loads except for quail and dove.
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
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Re: Anyone load 1-1/8 oz steel, Steel, Top Gun, or Ched?

Postby baltz526 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:46 pm

kenner wrote:
baltz526 wrote:12ga fed top gun paper base, fed209a, LBC43, 114 steel #1 477gr, 32gr steel, 1500fps. You can get a few more pellets in the load, but with 114 #1 I get nice crimps with no problems. Using #3 steel you can fit the full 1 1/8oz easy. Use at own risk. Data is from old publication. I tried the load in Rio hulls, with lower velocity and patterns where not as nice.


Baltz: I was actually hoping to use these Top Gun hulls to make a chukar load, as you suggested,, 1-1/8oz #3s.

Is there truth to the posts that I can use Top Gun hulls for Gold Medals?... just expect lower velocities?
Could I just use RSI data for the GM and sub in the Top Gun?

Thanks all!!

I do not use RSI data. I do use the 1 1/8oz load of steel #3 for chukar/quail/pheasant in nontox areas or if hunting the river breaks where ducks are. Kills them as far as I shoot them. Even the 1300fps bluedot load. I prefer the 7/8oz 20ga longshot load of lead #6 for straight Chukar hunting. Rem gun clubs, WAA20 clone, 18gr longshot, CCI209.
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