Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby Jesse Jaymes » Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:53 pm

Comes with a lockable hard top. A snap on camo cover. Molded in gun cradle, etc.

What really got me thinking was simply making a camo covering, possibly military netting, grass everything up, and roll it on when I get set up. And be able to throw it off of me, towards the bow, rather than trying to scramble and rig up a nice set of doors....season starts in 9 days.

Plus, both my wife and I got furloughed. I'm essential, so I have to work, but will not get paid. She is at home, without pay. Completely wrong time to get into this. But for $1000, schitt is going to get much worse for me than $1000 if they don't Turn the Power back on soon.

That's for the hull and trailer. Thoughts?
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby threedogs » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:07 pm

Got any better pics of the whole boat?
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby Jesse Jaymes » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:14 pm

Hard to find. Overall it looks really good. These were the potential problem areas.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby Slack Tide » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:18 pm

Grab it
The cleat and chip area are nothing..
Put ur engine on it and yank on it from the lower unit in the locked position.
You will get slight give but not more.. If u see real movement in that transom u have a problem... Doesn't look like a prob at all
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby pequawhonk1 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:54 pm

I picked up a AA Wigeon this past spring and it is a product of their Gainsvile era. Great boats but they do have their issues if original. First and biggest is the transom. The transom is constructed of plywood sandwiched in between the outer and inner layers of fiberglass. The top is the weak link as the cockpit cover, a separate piece relies on the sealant between the two halfs to seal out all water. Well the sealant with time begins to fail and lets water in and the rot begins. Also, they didn't use a lot of material and the transom is a bit thin, one solid layer of plywood and ad backer board up the middle. I new mine needed replacement and I did so with COOSA board and added additional layers of f. glass on the interior and doubled up on the coosa rather than a single layer with a backer in the middle. Nice part about composite materials is that they can be lifetime. All said and done with coosa, resin, glass, gel coat, brushes, sand paper,bondo, other misc materials and a helper it ran me $450 to rebuild the transom. But that is just transom. Now you will need more marine sealant, rivets, rub rail, s.s. screws, paint and I am sure to be forgetting something. You might also need to buy a few tools like a grinding wheel and plunge cutter to aid in the removal of the old transom. Also, splitting the cockpit from the hull is no easy task as they used 5200 and the you will break through it a half inch at a time using a putty knife. Really a fun off season project and like if you do it yourself you will save a ton of money and paying somebody will make it unaffordable. OH ya forgot about the brass drain tubes, flanging tool and right angle drill for the splash well.

Do a web search on transom replacement, lots of information and you will understand that their are two types of wood transoms, ones that rot and ones that are going to rot. Once the water gets in it stays in and the closed environment with the heat of the summer are prime for wood decay even pressure treated plywood as mine looked like.
Check the floor as it is glass over wood and could be rotten.

The final weak point to the boat is they skimped on glass and this becomes very apparent when the hull is split from the cover. Makes for a nice light weight boat but I would be careful on pulling it up on dry land to hunt from as it will likely stress crack over time.

The stress cracks around cleat look like a bad backing or no backing. That will need to be sanded down to glass, resin, matt, resin, sand, sand smooth, gel coat, sand a bunch of times with wet sand paper going from 200s, 300,400,600 and it should be fine after that. Make sure you prep a large enough area. The nick or ding can be fixed with bondo, sand and gel coat.

All the screws and bolts in transom do not looked like they were sealed and why did somebody beaf up the transom? One piece of metal is not original, the one on the back. Also brass tubes are prone to splitting with time and the seal around them needs yearly sealing from expansion and contraction forces. Again letting more water in, even a small amount is enough to make problems in a few years. My neighbors 7 yr old boat hull is trash from water under the deck rotting the sub floor and stringers.

In my opinion unless the owner is willing to drill the transom to show the integrity I would assume rot. Drill the center and near the lower drain tube. If the wood comes out dark or damp it is junk and unless it is a steal run. i would say if you are handy, read up on f.g. work and dare to do it yourself limit the price to $700 with trailer. The trailer will need work also, new lights, bearings, winch cable, leaf springs, axle and brackets and dry rot on tires and if rims are painted perhaps you will need new ones and if used in salt just bite the bullet and replace hubs. That is what I did, rebuilt entire trailer down to frame and it is like new and I am comfortable towing long distance.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby pequawhonk1 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:05 pm

Slack Tide wrote:Grab it
The cleat and chip area are nothing..
Put ur engine on it and yank on it from the lower unit in the locked position.
You will get slight give but not more.. If u see real movement in that transom u have a problem... Doesn't look like a prob at all


You will not get that much movement out of transom with the 7.5 hp max rating for this vintage hull since the transom is comprised of the two halfs of the boat joining at the seams. So when the motor is used as a fulcrum the forces will be displaced into the cover and the hull part of the transom. If this was my only test I would look for interior deflection, concaving of the surface of the glass. But this is no guarantee as rotten wood may stop a complete collapse but will not hold together when you run your motor a grounf unintenionally.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby threedogs » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:07 pm

I don't think he wants a full restoration but that's my opinion.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby pequawhonk1 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:13 pm

threedogs wrote:I don't think he wants a full restoration but that's my opinion.

Neither did I and that is what I got. I planned on a full restoration and my exploration revealed my intuitions. Rather have a full restoration that to test how well that flotation works. I guess if you plan on a row boat or electric trolling motor disregard my advice or as they say BOAT is an acronym for Bring Out Another Thousand.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby pequawhonk1 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:08 pm

Forgot to mention the back handles are fixed with very short screws and are not bolted through the transom. When I disected mine they were barely into where wood was. Like I have stressed great little factory boat but if you do search on internet you will find others that have bought and rebuilt with similar comments about typical factory construction.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby Jesse Jaymes » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:10 pm

Many, many thanks for investing the time in writing such a lengthy post. No, I am not looking to do any immediate work. Or much in the future. I've never used any FG products. Hate to start a project 8 days before season opens.

I fully expected the motor rating to be much higher. Owner said he rallied a 20 on it for some time.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby pequawhonk1 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:29 pm

The Broadbill does have a higher rating and you should find it on the inner transom on the Coast Guard placard. The rating I cited is for the Wigeon, a shorter model by about two feet. From what I have been told and read many people over power their AA boats and they fly. I have spoken with people that have put 15s on the Wigeon, so a proper transom should support a 20 on the Broadbill.

Great boats if you put the work into them but I really believe you or others are misleading yourself if you think it is fine without a thorough investigation. Would make a great off season project for the right price. If trailer is road worthy and new than $1000 might be high end of reasonable, better to be in for $700 that way you have some wiggle room on expenses without being underwater on the rehab. Paying a boat builder to work on boat is prohibitive and not a consideration. I chased and watched my AA's prior owner for almost 6 years before he finally believed me and accepted my offer based upon condition and age.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby Jesse Jaymes » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:14 pm

No wiggle room. Never met the owner. I asked the questions to determin if I was investing in a 4 hour round trip to see it. I do not think I am going to pursue it further.

I have one other option then a few outside possibilities.

Since there are so many savvy boat guys, I'd like to ask another question: transom ratings. What is the limiting factor? The torque/HP or the weight resting upping the transom. Meaning, a home made boat.....no rating from manufacture. What limits what can go on, the actual weight? Or the thrust put against transom while at WOT?

If a boat is rated for a 15, but a surface drive of 20hp is same weight, does that work OK?
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby Pumpgunner » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:02 pm

The HP rating is a calculation based on a formula from the Coast Guard that takes into account the hull shape, bottom contour, and hull size. As far as I know the weight of the engine and the thrust don't play into it. With mud motors it's more important to go by the weight of the motor as they are quite a bit heavier than outboards and generate a ton more torque, in my experience any boat that runs a mud motor that isn't designed for the extra weight and torque is going to have issues sooner or later.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby Tealer » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:44 pm

They still make all the Arthur Armstrong boats. I have a brand new black jack, slightly smaller then a broadbill. I have also been in a new broadbill they look like epic boats, I will be hunting my black jack this year. BTW the new boats have ZERO wood in them.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby Tealer » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:50 pm

Jesse Jaymes wrote:Many, many thanks for investing the time in writing such a lengthy post. No, I am not looking to do any immediate work. Or much in the future. I've never used any FG products. Hate to start a project 8 days before season opens.

I fully expected the motor rating to be much higher. Owner said he rallied a 20 on it for some time.



Two guy and a 10hp on a blackjack does 20..... I wouldn't go over 15 in a broadbill. There is no need.

Pumpgunner wrote:The HP rating is a calculation based on a formula from the Coast Guard that takes into account the hull shape, bottom contour, and hull size. As far as I know the weight of the engine and the thrust don't play into it. With mud motors it's more important to go by the weight of the motor as they are quite a bit heavier than outboards and generate a ton more torque, in my experience any boat that runs a mud motor that isn't designed for the extra weight and torque is going to have issues sooner or later.


Weight does apply, those calculations give you a total weight for the boats capacity. A lot of times a boat can handle a larger motor thrust/transom wise but the weight puts it over coast guard capacity. Also note that not all boats are actually rated correctly. The Coast Guard does not test every boat and you can get a sticker that says anything.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby Jesse Jaymes » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:28 am

Question was aimed at both: I currently own an Evinrude 25hp long shaft. If a boat was rated for 20 would the temporary use be a huge No No, or are the ratings pretty random and things would be fine?

And for future mud motors. My cheap azz could only afford the Predator/SPS kit. All up, I think it's 83lbs. So if a boat is rated for 15hp and the average weight of a 15hp outboard is 70 lbs, can you reasonably use ANY motor near 70 pounds in weight?
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby Tealer » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:46 pm

Jesse Jaymes wrote:Question was aimed at both: I currently own an Evinrude 25hp long shaft. If a boat was rated for 20 would the temporary use be a huge No No, or are the ratings pretty random and things would be fine?

And for future mud motors. My cheap azz could only afford the Predator/SPS kit. All up, I think it's 83lbs. So if a boat is rated for 15hp and the average weight of a 15hp outboard is 70 lbs, can you reasonably use ANY motor near 70 pounds in weight?


I wouldn't run a long shaft or a 25. The mud motor, I have no idea my experience is very limited in that department. I wouldn't think 13 pounds would be a deal breaker but I may try to move some weight up front.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby threedogs » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:08 pm

Jesse Jaymes wrote:Question was aimed at both: I currently own an Evinrude 25hp long shaft. If a boat was rated for 20 would the temporary use be a huge No No, or are the ratings pretty random and things would be fine?

And for future mud motors. My cheap azz could only afford the Predator/SPS kit. All up, I think it's 83lbs. So if a boat is rated for 15hp and the average weight of a 15hp outboard is 70 lbs, can you reasonably use ANY motor near 70 pounds in weight?



The USCG rating is for boat manufacturers only. If your boat can handle the 25 use it if you have a 20-21 transom , if not I wouldn't. If it has a 15-16 " transom then you would need a short shaft motor. The SPS is a fine long tail kit for the money and in its case I wouldn't worry about transom height. Some states have a hp rating on boats but not many. Ohio is one of them. Hope this helps.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby Tealer » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:59 pm

threedogs wrote:The USCG rating is for boat manufacturers only..


If you say so, The Coast Guard can and will hold you to those tabs. The local Sheriffs in my area will too.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby threedogs » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:43 pm

Tealer wrote:
threedogs wrote:The USCG rating is for boat manufacturers only..


If you say so, The Coast Guard can and will hold you to those tabs. The local Sheriffs in my area will too.



I've already been to court over it and won. Insurance may be a problem but NOT the CG .
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby Slack Tide » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:59 pm

"I've been left for dead before but I'll still fight on, don't wait up, leave the light on, I'll be home soon"
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby Tealer » Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:56 pm

threedogs wrote:
Tealer wrote:
threedogs wrote:The USCG rating is for boat manufacturers only..


If you say so, The Coast Guard can and will hold you to those tabs. The local Sheriffs in my area will too.



I've already been to court over it and won. Insurance may be a problem but NOT the CG .

So have I .
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby Percy86 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:24 pm

I picked up a 1984 broadbill with a 25 hp last year after I sold my 18' SC crestliner. The thing tops out around 35mph and I have thoroughly enjoyed it. It is great for 1-2 guys w/a dog. All you need is 4 sheets of fast grass and the birds will land on top of you. I used it some for divers, but a true layout boat will work best as they flare some (not sure if it's the motor, color, or what). I re-painted the boat this summer, added line-x on the deck and wired the lights so I'm legal. I paid $2500 with the motor, so what you are looking at sounds about right. I will most likely replace the evinrude with a 2 stroke yamaha next season. PM me if you want more details.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby midaoutlaw » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:04 pm

I built the Broadbill years ago from plans that at one time were available for purchase. I originally built it with a 21" transom and ran a 25Hp outboard. I loved this rig and think you will enjoy this one as well. In my opinion, the repairs required are minimal, and the price seems fair to me. If you know how to hunt, you will kill birds out of this rig.

I ultimately cut a forward hatch into the bow of mine and moved the fuel tank up front for perfect balance. As I got older, it became more difficult making those dark thirty runs sitting so low in the back with the tiller. I later added a throttle and stick steering to the forward area of the box, throttle left and steering on the right...it is a lot easier to see where you are going when you sit on your knees and steer from the front. The last motor I had on it was a 35Hp. This was a killer rig...I just got too old to hunt out of it comfortably at age 45. I'm 60 now and I still get a smile on my face when I see hunters coming back to the dock in these special little boats...usually with a limit of birds.
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Re: Arthur Armstrong Broadbill? Anyone use one?

Postby FWP » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:19 pm

I had an Armstrong that was built in NC by Tom Lindenheimer (boy I hope I got his last name right). We bought 3 from him at the time. I used mine for many years in all kind of water, marsh, big rivers and ocean bays. I never had a problem or an issue with the boat. I only sold it because I purchased a War Eagle with a blind to hunt more people.

I laid out in it all the time. Pull some camo over you and you are good to go. I had different camo to match the terrine.

BTW it was rated for 25 HP. Tom told me some guys in FL were using 40's. 25 was fast enough.
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