Water Mark issues

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Water Mark issues

Postby summit20 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:03 pm

:help:
So the last couple of nights I have been throwing water marks for 7.5 month old pup. I put him on a place and go out to throw water mark so I can extend his range. I wish I had another person to throw marks for me, but this is not always available. After throwing the mark, I return to him at his place at heal/sit and give him fetch command and he will take off aggressively about 6 -10 feet and then turn around and look at me as if needing more direction. He is fine if I give him a hand direction or back command from the location out 6-10 feet, but I don't get the stopping and turning back to me for direction. I have not seen this behavior on any land marks that I can recall.

It may have happen once or twice if I have had someone throwing water marks for us in the distance, but I really see it after I throw one and then send him from a mark I have thrown from a distance.

Dog is currently doing force to pile drills in the morning, as that is the progression of where we are in his training after basic obedience, FF, CC, and three hand casting.

I am not sure if I have provided enough info here so if more info is needed let me know and I can expound and give more background.
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Re: Water Mark issues

Postby i_willie12 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:13 am

I would say he's confused.... Confused by you throwing marks away from him, and the fact that in the morning your doing FF pile work. When i start FF pile work I just work FF pile work till they are through that process! Nothing else that way Dog doesnt get confused with what he's working on at this time... Just like hold work Nothing other than hold work..

Has dog ever done this with a helper throwing marks?? If just with you I'd say he just isnt putting 2-2 together and doesnt understand why your walking out and then walking back then resitting him and sending him... I'm not big on that feel it messes with the dogs mind Most guys will remote send their dog from where they throw the mark Its hard to train alone and extend dogs out past your throwing distance
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Re: Water Mark issues

Postby summit20 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:19 am

Yes, that is my hunch as well as he looks confused when he turns and looks for direction. :huh: I am confused as I know he saw the mark splash and he starts out and then turns to me for direction. I don't believe it is a refusal but a confusion issue and that is my problem not his.

I will back off that methodology and just work through FTP. I was trying to get in as much water work as I can though with the present weather and that I had a few live ducks that I was using with him in the evening portion of our training.

Thanks for the feedback.

Left a message with Red Label yesterday, but haven't heard anything yet.
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Re: Water Mark issues

Postby crackerd » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:42 am

summit20 wrote:I will back off that methodology and just work through FTP. I was trying to get in as much water work as I can though with the present weather and that I had a few live ducks that I was using with him in the evening portion of our training.


You can do that. Or you can send him remote - i.e., releasing the dog to go for a mark by shouting its name from the field rather than going back to his side and then sending him. That's what many of us do - are forced to do - when training alone. Eliminates confusion immediately, but the dog needs to be steady at the line (where you leave him on sit when walking out to throw for him).

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Water Mark issues

Postby BKScripto » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:51 am

I'm not the best dog trainer but I do a little. Sounds like what big time trainers call "popping". The dog starts to retrieve but stops and looks back for that reassurance or guidance even though they saw the mark. My dog had a Jr title before she ever went on her first real hunt. No hesitation from her in the hunt tests but she "popped" on me for the first couple birds she retrieved over water.

Keep it simple. The dog may be losing confidence in his mark because of the length of time it's taking for you to come all the way back to him and release him, thus needing the reassurance.

Find ya a neighborhood kid or nephew to throw marks. They are usually happy to throw stuff in the water :)
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Re: Water Mark issues

Postby labsforme » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:01 pm

Also stop handling.Let the dog work it out. You reenforce the pop by handling and then the dog relies on you when it should be marking for itself.If need be shorten it up and then extend it as the dog builds confidence.

Jeff
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Re: Water Mark issues

Postby Force Fetch » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:12 pm

Listen to Jeff, do not handle on marks, in fact don't even tell him to fetch unless he is standing over the bumper. The dogs concentration should be in the direction of the mark.
Lengthen the marks until the dog fails, then shorten it up till he succeeds. Repeat the success. This is the teaching stage of his training, so unless it becomes a crutch it is OK to repeat a mark now and then. Also a remote release should be taught as it may come in handy in field situations.
Good Luck, remember Teach, Train, Test and Hunt.
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Re: Water Mark issues

Postby Chaws » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:46 am

If you don't have throwers available for you, remote release would be ideal as walking back around the water is sometimes very lengthly to then send your dog if their memory hasn't been developed very well. Take a look at some of the videos by Bill Hillmann on place training to do remote sends and being able to send a dog back to the line so you can throw another mark for them. This works really well if introduced and trained properly.

http://youtu.be/slGVA9fKGQY
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Re: Water Mark issues

Postby crackerd » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:16 pm

Good for putting that video out there for the OP, chaws - a little elaboration on "standalones" from Dennis Voigt might get him to a better appreciation for remote sends: http://retrieversonline.com/standalone.htm

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Re: Water Mark issues

Postby krazybronco2 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:57 pm

also be careful with your water marks don't let the get cheaty. even with a remote send if the dog saw you walk to where you are throwing the chances of them cheating are now even higher because they know they can run around the bank.
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Re: Water Mark issues

Postby ptrivero » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:04 am

i notice this swimmimg a few years ago when eyes are only inches off the water and there are any waves ( i mean 3" 4" )
you cant see any thing he may be loosing his sence of direction ?
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Re: Water Mark issues

Postby GarDuck » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:07 am

Youve gotten some awesome advice I would add one thing if your set on doing marks at this time. If your pup is steady and your pretty confident in his steadiness then I would bring the marks in closer and send him with his name the moment the bumper hits the water. If you release him at the moment of the splash I would imagine the excitement will carry him through the confusion. Obviously if you have been releasing him on marks with the fetch command switching to his name may require a little practice with field marks first. Good luck and good on you for training.
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