No birds in October!

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Re: No birds in October!

Postby adamdu82 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:09 pm

you would swear i left you the other day craving some arguments.........first of all I would like to know where you are getting the facts about this "imprinting". Now what i want is a link to some scientific journals that prove this ..........not some bullshit you read of off ducks support group website or some other news feed. After i read all that we can chat, and I'll stop believing that they aren't on sight for overall marsh condition and feed. You just give me those journals.........O and those journals must prove this "imprinting" and not hypothesize.
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:11 pm

adamdu82 wrote:you would swear i left you the other day craving some arguments.........first of all I would like to know where you are getting the facts about this "imprinting". Now what i want is a link to some scientific journals that prove this ..........not some bullshit you read of off ducks support group website or some other news feed. After i read all that we can chat, and I'll stop believing that they aren't on sight for overall marsh condition and feed. You just give me those journals.........O and those journals must prove this "imprinting" and not hypothesize.

I'm sure Larry Reynolds can provide that for you.

If you think salt water marsh is not a factor, then why isn't grand isle a duck mecca?
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:25 pm

Also reasonably certain my friend Cason @ ByersFarms can provide you with inprinting studies as he's participated in a lot of studies at the farm.
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby adamdu82 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:26 pm

damn i can't believe this one just blew over your head..............actually it is a duck mecca..........i counted thousands of ducks around there last year and past years definetly in the second half of the season. Species specific sure but ducks nonetheless: Common mergansers, dosgris (scaup), buffleheads i believe they are, gadwall............Also, to blow another one over your head have you been down to Cocodrie in the past few years later in season and definetly after the season......."another duck mecca." O and i'm waiting for those proven facts........And the damn journal better have it proven and not theorize......so don't waste my freakin time. No one will make me believe a duck is a mindless robot and that if my marsh turns to prime freshwater habitat next year that mallards won't key in on it.......that's BS. Also I wanted to let you know i think the "sinking, floating marsh" line is hilarious!
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:35 pm

adamdu82 wrote:damn i can't believe this one just blew over your head..............actually it is a duck mecca..........i counted thousands of ducks around there last year and past years definetly in the second half of the season. Species specific sure but ducks nonetheless: Common mergansers, dosgris (scaup), buffleheads i believe they are, gadwall............Also, to blow another one over your head have you been down to Cocodrie in the past few years later in season and definetly after the season......."another duck mecca." O and i'm waiting for those proven facts........And the damn journal better have it proven and not theorize......so don't waste my freakin time. No one will make me believe a duck is a mindless robot and that if my marsh turns to prime freshwater habitat next year that mallards won't key in on it.......that's BS. Also I wanted to let you know i think the "sinking, floating marsh" line is hilarious!

Thank you. common mergs, buffle heads, and scaup are not high on the list of birds using Byers Farms...and you can add redheads and canvasbacks to the list too.
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby adamdu82 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:09 pm

Arguing with you is like riding a bicycle in circles. Its a lot of work, gets you nowhere, and is pointless. Now unless you tell me you have a Ph D in duck biology and conservation or get me that evidence on your imprinting hypothesis, then i'm really done here dude. Also if you want to deter the rice, bean, cornfield theory, then you visit LA sportsman as they have more than enough opinions to go around in my favor. Peace~
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:41 pm

adamdu82 wrote:Arguing with you is like riding a bicycle in circles. Its a lot of work, gets you nowhere, and is pointless. Now unless you tell me you have a Ph D in duck biology and conservation or get me that evidence on your imprinting hypothesis, then i'm really done here dude. Also if you want to deter the rice, bean, cornfield theory, then you visit LA sportsman as they have more than enough opinions to go around in my favor. Peace~

Let me clue you in on the #1 reason why you are not seeing the numbers of birds you are use to seeing this time of year. It has to do with duck biology. It is a fact that flightless birds can not fly. Period. We had an unseasonably late spring on the breeding grounds along with a substantial late season snow storm. Snow pack was 6~7 weeks late melting. Ducks can't breed in those conditions and had to postpone it. We had the fewest number of bluewings for this years teal season than we've had since they started the special teal season. Larry Reynolds posted on my annual teal season countdown threads in the HH and spoke of this fact. He spoke with biologists in MN. and they were still finding flightless bluewings as of the third week of Sept.

During the first weekend on the MN. opener, a DHC member reported shooting 2 flightless redheads that swam into the decoys.

One of my friends recently reported that the numbers on birds on the great lakes is down significantly and they were holding large numbers of birds that should have already pushed through. Of the birds they harvested, a large majority of them were young birds, which was unusual.
I say all of this to point out that what you are blaming farmers in arkansas for is not their fault. Period. Hell, Byersfarms reported that the usual migration of specks is running late.
The only reason I have taken the time to address the ignorance displayed on this and other threads is because of the misplaced anger. Correlation does not equal causation, like you have displayed with your attacks on Arkansas farmers.
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby adamdu82 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:56 pm

Indaswamp......thanks for all those wonderful "facts".....maybe you can help me with this and maybe its just my ignorance playing into part but I really would like to know how i can deactivate my account for this website. If you can tell me where to do that I would appreciate it. Thanks,
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Rick Hall » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:03 pm

Why not just quit opening the site?
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:05 pm

BTW, there is even more ignorance on display at the Louisianasportsman forum...
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:08 pm

adamdu82 wrote:Indaswamp......thanks for all those wonderful "facts".....maybe you can help me with this and maybe its just my ignorance playing into part but I really would like to know how i can deactivate my account for this website. If you can tell me where to do that I would appreciate it. Thanks,

Funny thing about facts my friend is that they don't cease to exist because someone ignores them. :thumbsup: Have a great season my friend,wish you the best of luck.
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Park Duck » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:26 pm

Indaswamp wrote:
adamdu82 wrote:In response to Indaswamp.........first of all I want to say that I think you are one of the only ones that has showed me any amount of respect on my ramblings the other days and I appreciate that. With that in mind i'll keep my words civil. I understand that we have our issues with our marshes down here and all that has been brought on by numerous factors. I will say that I do not believe our habitat from Terrebonne to Lafourche is too degraded to support a healthy wintering duck population. This year we have feed out the a** and i can count the ducks i've seen so far on my two hands.


That does not matter when you have numerous consecutive years of bad feed. Ducks become imprinted. The fly where the feed is. A large majority of young follow the hen to where she winters. Over time, less new young birds are recruited and imprinted to fly to a marsh with poor feed conditions from salt water intrusion. Period. If feed and conditions are good, some might return, but if they are bad, most will not unless mother nature forces them to.




I have witnessed a few years back what amount of ducks an extreme drought year can bring. I would say that year the marshes are the only areas that had any water for ducks to congregate and we had more than we knew what to do with.

sure, we had one hell of a season during the drought too, but you don't hear me bitching about farmers in arkansas. Those hens got pushed here because of no water. when the water returned, they flew back to their traditionally imprinted feeding grounds.
Some of the young likely flew to the marshes of the previous year, but if feed conditions suck, they will move on.

Years before and following years were rainy years and our duck numbers have once again bottomed out. Your buddy's pics really only validated for me for where i know our birds to be. I understand that those created habitats help the duck population and I support that. Fact is the corn, rice, bean whatever field creation/flooding has gotten way out of hand these days and WE are paying the price with mostly empty skies. On the other issue of whether or not that flooded rice, corn, bean field is a baited field.........that is just a whole other beast that I could argue for days.........its sort of like why can't i just plant corn all around my duck pond and knock it over into the water and let the ducks pour in? But they will say that's baiting. I don't find that any different than harvesting a field, knocking feed over on to the ground and then then "FLOODING" it. It should be natural flooding only allowed at the very least. My thoughts.....what's yours?

Paging Larry Reynolds!
The law is what the law is.... bitching about changing migrations patterns and blaming it on arkansas farmers is shortsighted on your part. Byers has been doing the same thing he is doing this year that he has been for the past 60 years. We killed ducks in spite of the fact that he does what he does. You can not blame it on them. Period.

I blame it on DU
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:29 pm

Park Duck wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
adamdu82 wrote:In response to Indaswamp.........first of all I want to say that I think you are one of the only ones that has showed me any amount of respect on my ramblings the other days and I appreciate that. With that in mind i'll keep my words civil. I understand that we have our issues with our marshes down here and all that has been brought on by numerous factors. I will say that I do not believe our habitat from Terrebonne to Lafourche is too degraded to support a healthy wintering duck population. This year we have feed out the a** and i can count the ducks i've seen so far on my two hands.


That does not matter when you have numerous consecutive years of bad feed. Ducks become imprinted. The fly where the feed is. A large majority of young follow the hen to where she winters. Over time, less new young birds are recruited and imprinted to fly to a marsh with poor feed conditions from salt water intrusion. Period. If feed and conditions are good, some might return, but if they are bad, most will not unless mother nature forces them to.




I have witnessed a few years back what amount of ducks an extreme drought year can bring. I would say that year the marshes are the only areas that had any water for ducks to congregate and we had more than we knew what to do with.

sure, we had one hell of a season during the drought too, but you don't hear me bitching about farmers in arkansas. Those hens got pushed here because of no water. when the water returned, they flew back to their traditionally imprinted feeding grounds.
Some of the young likely flew to the marshes of the previous year, but if feed conditions suck, they will move on.

Years before and following years were rainy years and our duck numbers have once again bottomed out. Your buddy's pics really only validated for me for where i know our birds to be. I understand that those created habitats help the duck population and I support that. Fact is the corn, rice, bean whatever field creation/flooding has gotten way out of hand these days and WE are paying the price with mostly empty skies. On the other issue of whether or not that flooded rice, corn, bean field is a baited field.........that is just a whole other beast that I could argue for days.........its sort of like why can't i just plant corn all around my duck pond and knock it over into the water and let the ducks pour in? But they will say that's baiting. I don't find that any different than harvesting a field, knocking feed over on to the ground and then then "FLOODING" it. It should be natural flooding only allowed at the very least. My thoughts.....what's yours?

Paging Larry Reynolds!
The law is what the law is.... bitching about changing migrations patterns and blaming it on arkansas farmers is shortsighted on your part. Byers has been doing the same thing he is doing this year that he has been for the past 60 years. We killed ducks in spite of the fact that he does what he does. You can not blame it on them. Period.

I blame it on DU

You are not alone in that sentiment. Blaming the Robertsons is in vogue nowadays though....
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:35 pm

Mark my words boys-the Peak migration will be late this season because of a late spring. If we get an early winter, we should be alright though. :thumbsup:
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:18 pm

adamdu82 wrote:damn i can't believe this one just blew over your head..............actually it is a duck mecca..........i counted thousands of ducks around there last year and past years definetly in the second half of the season. Species specific sure but ducks nonetheless: Common mergansers, dosgris (scaup), buffleheads i believe they are, gadwall............Also, to blow another one over your head have you been down to Cocodrie in the past few years later in season and definetly after the season......."another duck mecca." O and i'm waiting for those proven facts........And the damn journal better have it proven and not theorize......so don't waste my freakin time. No one will make me believe a duck is a mindless robot and that if my marsh turns to prime freshwater habitat next year that mallards won't key in on it.......that's BS. Also I wanted to let you know i think the "sinking, floating marsh" line is hilarious!

your definition of a "duck mecca" and mine are orders of magnitude different. Not surprising at all that you find birds there late season. they feed on the spike rush along the banks that they can easily get to with the north winds blowing the water out.

I do have some personal experience with imprinting on ducks. I hunted a pothole on a pipeline in a small swamp to close to home. It was primarily a wood duck hole, but on occasion we would get greys and mallards along with a few green wings. One year we had a mouthy mallard hen move in and use the pothole as a primary feeding area. I noticed her on the water one morning and watched her for a long while waiting on the wood duck flights. she had a distinctive hump on the top of her bill and a recognizable raspy quack. first time I saw her she was alone. I did not shoot her and let her off. that season, I shot 13 drake mallards that one hen brought into the hole. I would always let them land first and mill around for about 5 minutes before jumping them and shooting the drakes at 15~20 yards. this happened for 3 seasons....same hen mallard. I shot a total of 31 mallard drakes in a wood duck hole not known for mallards because of that one hen. She did not return for the 4th season. I missed watching out for her bringing drakes to fill out the straps.
That is imprinting in action my friend. That duck knew where she wanted to spend her winter feeding. there was an acorn flat on the high ground and when it flooded, acorns would float all over the hole. She would not always return the next day after the shooting, but it was always within 5 days. Sometimes, she would have drakes with her on her first return trip, most times not. Most she ever brought in at one time in one flock was 7 drakes... we got 4 of them.
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Rick Hall » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:31 am

For several Springs running some time back, we had a group of cinnamon teal show up in the old rice field behind our SWLA camp. Hard to imagine that a random thing.
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Indaswamp » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:35 am

Rick Hall wrote:For several Springs running some time back, we had a group of cinnamon teal show up in the old rice field behind our SWLA camp. Hard to imagine that a random thing.

It's not.
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Underradar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:45 pm

*squawk* 1 Adam12, see the man on 2nd and Main, duck cup on his head. Argument in progress *squawk*
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby ByersFarm » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:43 pm

I recorded a pair of color marked specks repeatedly each season for 4 consecutive years on our farm. I couldn't imagine that would be an accident. As far as the harvested fields being baited I'm sure Rick would agree that it would be drastically different if we didn't harvest at all and treated all the rice fields from northern MO so SWLA as food plots.
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby slayer_eoi39 » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:47 pm

To Cason: Are you guys familiar with the scientific method? Your field pictures are lovely by the way. Thanks for short stopping all those birds.
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Indaswamp » Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:30 pm

slayer_eoi39 wrote:To Cason: Are you guys familiar with the scientific method? Your field pictures are lovely by the way. Thanks for short stopping all those birds.


La. Hunter wrote:
slayer_eoi39 wrote:awesome pictures!........where were these taken? Nice to see the migration taking place.


Adam,

You asked for your account to be deleted, so I did so. If you want to come back to DHC, let me know and I'll reactivate your original account.


What's it gonna be Adam? If you want to stay on DHC, we will reactivate your other account.
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Indaswamp » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:02 pm

Another thing to keep in mind is that Texas has gotten flooded once and has a lot of water. It is about to get even more with flooding possible yet again. there is a TS on the west side of mexico feeding moisture to this cold front and texas will get a huge amount of rain from this system. we will get some too. last two seasons, texas was pretty dry. Not this season people.
http://www.weather.com/news/weather-hurricanes/tropical-depression-eighteen-e-storm-hurricane-sonia-mexico-pacific-20131030
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Ducaholic » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:44 am

Not just Texas. The entire middle of the country is wet. Very wet!
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:09 am

Ducaholic wrote:Not just Texas. The entire middle of the country is wet. Very wet!

true dat...
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Re: No birds in October!

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:58 pm

Exactly what I have been saying for some time now fellas...
Also, Reynolds said Paul Link, the North American Waterfowl Management Plan coordinator for the state, returned to his home in North Dakota for a hunting trip in mid-October and reported seeing flightless gadwall broods remaining on the prairie.

“That means there was a lot of late nesting and some of those birds had not reached flight stage yet,” Reynolds said.

Finally, a research project conducted in southwest Louisiana this spring in which blue-winged teal were banded and outfitted with radio transmitters has provided more troubling news.

“Last week, there were six of those banded blue-winged teal killed, and they were killed in South Dakota, Minnesota and Iowa. So there are still blue-winged teal quite a ways north of us,” he said.

And 12 birds outfitted with transmitters last spring were still sending data, he said.

“As of Oct. 23, one of those teal was in coastal Louisiana, one was in southern Mississippi and the other ten were still in the prairie pothole region,” he said. “Typically, we think blue-winged teal migrate fairly early, but those birds are holding fairly far to the north.”

Although he’s begun receiving calls from folks around the state telling him birds are now showing up, that just started happening last week.

“That’s a week or two later than normal,” Reynolds said. “So I’m nervous about this November survey. There’s a lot of evidence that this has been a late season phenologically. Things just seem to be progressing a little bit later.


The migration is late this season.
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