C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Interact with others on shot gun shells, reloading, ballistics, chokes, or anything that has to do with your shooting.

Moderators: donell67, pennsyltucky, Ohio Wildfowler, NV Guide

C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby MTEsq » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:28 pm

Hello, this is my first post here! I was doing some research would rather start a new thread than resurrect an old thread with tangential issues. Is it correct that the C.I.P. standard for modern 3" 12 gauge guns proofed for steel is now 15,000 psi?
MTEsq
Newb
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:33 pm


Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby HCK » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:24 am

Not only steel shots its every 3 and 3 1/2 inch magnum load. But cip is banned hight velocity steel loads (max1400fps.
Last edited by HCK on Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
HCK
hunter
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:04 pm
Location: Finland Varsinais-Suomi

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby MTEsq » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:57 am

Why are can you only load steel to 15,000 psi but not a softer, less stressful material such as lead? :huh:
MTEsq
Newb
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:33 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby cookoff013 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:48 am

the cip have a two tier system,

for 12gauge the limits are normal and High performance (HP)these are 740bar and 1050bar.

this can be with any cartridge ie, 12gauge 70mm HP cartridge with a pressure of 1049bar.
so the tier system can be applied to all lengths of shell.

it is just that the HP 70mm shells are not manufactured, it is a homeload criteria.

this applies to all shot types.

the cip does have a limit of speed for steel.
cookoff013
hunter
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:46 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:59 am

So , tell me ? Fabarms list its XLR 5 at 1630 bars , with this kind of pressure proofing the limits are endless , right ?
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby Jim Atlas » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:03 pm

3200 man wrote:So , tell me ? Fabarms list its XLR 5 at 1630 bars , with this kind of pressure proofing the limits are endless , right ?

Yes, endless ..... up to 1630get bar, that is.
User avatar
Jim Atlas
hunter
 
Posts: 442
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:31 am
Location: NW Ore.

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby MTEsq » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:59 pm

Interesting. I have am unfamiliar with high performance loads. What type of energy is available at 1050 BAR, 4,000 ft lbs +?

Thank you for the replies.
MTEsq
Newb
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:33 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby MK10 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:50 am

MTEsq wrote:Hello, this is my first post here! I was doing some research would rather start a new thread than resurrect an old thread with tangential issues. Is it correct that the C.I.P. standard for modern 3" 12 gauge guns proofed for steel is now 15,000 psi?



Here is a quick breakdown of CIP limits from BASC. Yes, all HP loads are now 1,050 bar (15,225 psi), but momentum levels do vary. Loads velocity limits for all HP loads are 1,410 fps ( @ 2.5m/8.2').

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 3115,d.aGc
User avatar
MK10
hunter
 
Posts: 1105
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:10 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby cookoff013 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:09 am

i think there is some confusion.
the xlr question 1630 bar is what the gun is proofed too, not what standards of shells that should be used in it.

these high performance loads have a higher pressure rating to take full advantage of the range of powders available.
they also have other criteria, of ptmax (pressure threshold ) and upper deviations of pressure fluctuations, both the PTMAX criteria have a maximum of a shell producing ptmax * 1.15. this equates to about 800bar and 1200bar respectively. i get this from 740 bar multiplied by 1.15.

the average pressure must be below 740 or 1050 respectively with no shell exceeding 1.15x the ptmax. so there is some fluctuation in pressure acceptable. these modern guns are superiour proofed to extreme standards.

as fot the proofing having limitless, is a moot point, because if the magic (speed) isnt happening at 10,000psi, 10,770 psi isnt going to do it. thats the point. the 3.5" saami specs are 14000psi and that is a great deal higher than the standard proof. it may work out the extra 3-4000psi would clean up that load, may or maynot make it faster, but i can assure you, nearly all powders burn clean at high psi and if the pressure peak is extended for about half a millisecond or so.

these super slow powders such as "steel" need alot of pressure to get them clean, pressure is the burn, the powders burn slow giving there energy over a longer period of time, these slow powders give alot of pressure over a longer time . in ballistics thats only an extra 0.5 microsecond or so. but the main peak must be below the maximums.

now what does this higher pressure rating do? well, it gives us the chance to use up all the powder (fuel) in the reaction. this should mean the pressure variation is lower because all the fuel is efficiently used and that end result should be the fps is more consistent.

i know a few reloaders that use the HP shells for wildfowling, but they are using european powders.

now in your case the cip proofing is meaningless, just grab a great recipe from a manufacturer, such as hodgdon and alliant. because there recipes are good and safe.

i proof alot of loads, i have more failures at proof, but i`m doing experimental stuff.
cookoff013
hunter
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:46 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:37 am

Thanks Cookoff ,

I did wonder , what advantage this XLR 5 with a 1630 bar rating had over standard proofed 14,000 psi guns .
With mine being a Clay target gun and not a field / hunting gun , I have patterned it with my normal steel shot
waterfowl loads . It does shoot them well but , I haven't seen any advantage to making them faster . I do think
a heavier payload of shot could help , tho ? Which would increase the chamber pressure and give this gun a
advantage ? What's your thoughts on that ? I do realize going from .740 to .725 in a tapered barrel adds pressure
and hull volume / length is controlling ?
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby cookoff013 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:02 am

3200 man wrote:Thanks Cookoff ,

I did wonder , what advantage this XLR 5 with a 1630 bar rating had over standard proofed 14,000 psi guns .
With mine being a Clay target gun and not a field / hunting gun , I have patterned it with my normal steel shot
waterfowl loads . It does shoot them well but , I haven't seen any advantage to making them faster . I do think
a heavier payload of shot could help , tho ? Which would increase the chamber pressure and give this gun a
advantage ? What's your thoughts on that ? I do realize going from .740 to .725 in a tapered barrel adds pressure
and hull volume / length is controlling ?


it just means its superior proofed. ie it has been proofed to a higher standard. thats it.
there is no advantage.

if you are reloading, you may be able to select cip HP recipes. thats all.

thats all it means.
cookoff013
hunter
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:46 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:54 am

Thanks , I do reload my steel shot loads mostly 2 3/4" but , some 3" for larger shot . Thinking with the proofing
of this gun , I could use it in testing loads that are on the heavy side ,to be safe ,other than the 3 1/2" chambered gun ?

Good hunting

3200 man
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby MTEsq » Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:09 am

Does anyone have a link to a source of published CIP hi performance loads?
MTEsq
Newb
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:33 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:47 am

RELOADERS Specialties Inc has a pretty good manual on high proformance loads !

With mine , if I can be of some help , PM me ?
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby cookoff013 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:33 pm

MTEsq wrote:Does anyone have a link to a source of published CIP hi performance loads?


no link but there are privatised loads available. these are privately produced recipes from homeloaders.

i`m also under the suspition that HP classified ammunition actually has pressures of only 800bar. i`m under this influence because i saw a load of listed cartridges and there pressures. i cant find the link, but the ammo had steel HP printed on the side and 1050bar. but the tested pressures were 800bar.

they are obviously using the extra 300bar to have the loads running closer to 1200psi or 13000psi.
cookoff013
hunter
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:46 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby Frank Lopez » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:24 pm

Standard CIP proof is 130% of the MAP. Standard SAAMI proof is 170% of the MAP. Those are the specified minimum proofs. 1630 bar proof is the SAAMI standard proof pressure for 3 1/2 inch 12ga loads (14,000 MAP).

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
User avatar
Frank Lopez
hunter
 
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:34 pm
Location: Long Island New York

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:44 pm

That's what I was looking for ( Thanks Frank ) , trying to understand SAAMI's proofing requirement's to = BARS !
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby Tony Mc Cann » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:52 am

Hi I live in Northern Ireland and shoot a 3" browning maxus with gamebore mamath steel 36gram 3's @1425fps,says on the shell only shoot in guns proofed to 1370bar,does this mean they are not within CIP regulations?ive been using them for 2 seasons now hopefully with no extra wear on my gun.
Tony Mc Cann
hunter
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:57 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby Frank Lopez » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:48 am

Tony Mc Cann wrote:Hi I live in Northern Ireland and shoot a 3" browning maxus with gamebore mamath steel 36gram 3's @1425fps,says on the shell only shoot in guns proofed to 1370bar,does this mean they are not within CIP regulations?ive been using them for 2 seasons now hopefully with no extra wear on my gun.


It appears that those shells are safe in 3 inch or longer guns proofed for steel. If your Maxus bears the fleur de lys stamp for high performance steel, you should be fine (just barely, though). CIP regulations for steel proof do not deal with just the chamber pressure of the load. CIP limits also limits the velocity (at 2.5 meters) to 430m/s (about 1400fps, actually a little more because of the difference in where the measurement takes place). In addition, they limit the momentum of the cartridge, charge weight times velocity, to 15 Ns. If you do the math on what you've got, you're right on the edge.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
User avatar
Frank Lopez
hunter
 
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:34 pm
Location: Long Island New York

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby culot » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:22 am

Hi,

I found this post about the Fabarm XLR5 weary interesting, ( i have just bought one XLR5 composite )

Is there any list of what gun who can take the HP super fast steel reloads ? will my Fabarm do'it ?

Regards / Peter

Sweden
culot
hunter
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:15 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby Frank Lopez » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:58 am

culot wrote:Hi,

I found this post about the Fabarm XLR5 weary interesting, ( i have just bought one XLR5 composite )

Is there any list of what gun who can take the HP super fast steel reloads ? will my Fabarm do'it ?

Regards / Peter

Sweden


Peter,

To the best of my knowledge, the maximum velocity allowed by CIP is for guns proofed for High Performance Steel (fleur de lys stamp) and that is limited to a velocity of 430m/s measured at 2.5m from the muzzle.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
User avatar
Frank Lopez
hunter
 
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:34 pm
Location: Long Island New York

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby solway gunner » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:31 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:
Tony Mc Cann wrote:Hi I live in Northern Ireland and shoot a 3" browning maxus with gamebore mamath steel 36gram 3's @1425fps,says on the shell only shoot in guns proofed to 1370bar,does this mean they are not within CIP regulations?ive been using them for 2 seasons now hopefully with no extra wear on my gun.


It appears that those shells are safe in 3 inch or longer guns proofed for steel. If your Maxus bears the fleur de lys stamp for high performance steel, you should be fine (just barely, though). CIP regulations for steel proof do not deal with just the chamber pressure of the load. CIP limits also limits the velocity (at 2.5 meters) to 430m/s (about 1400fps, actually a little more because of the difference in where the measurement takes place). In addition, they limit the momentum of the cartridge, charge weight times velocity, to 15 Ns. If you do the math on what you've got, you're right on the edge.

Frank




He can put any European steel shell through that maxus without any cause for concern.Fact is by comparison to US factory loaded steel shells,those G.bore are mild and nowhere near either breech pressure or muzzle velocity generated by say for example US loaded Kent Fasteel.Those G.bore chrono around 1340fps for around 600bar pressure.Remember Frank we use the same US made guns that you do but with factory shells that can barely knock the skin off rice pudding.Cip regs are contrary ,contradictory flawed and have ruined the UK shotgun shell manufacturing trade. i dont even know why there up for discussion on a US forum,they need booting right back to where they came from.
solway gunner
hunter
 
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:50 am
Location: scotland uk

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby culot » Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:34 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:Standard CIP proof is 130% of the MAP. Standard SAAMI proof is 170% of the MAP. Those are the specified minimum proofs. 1630 bar proof is the SAAMI standard proof pressure for 3 1/2 inch 12ga loads (14,000 MAP).

Frank


Hi Frank,

so if i have a 1630 bar proof XLR5 3" i can feed it with all HP steel , include 7/8 1800fps reloads ?

if not , what guns could take that loads ?

/ Peter
culot
hunter
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:15 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby Frank Lopez » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:16 pm

culot wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:Standard CIP proof is 130% of the MAP. Standard SAAMI proof is 170% of the MAP. Those are the specified minimum proofs. 1630 bar proof is the SAAMI standard proof pressure for 3 1/2 inch 12ga loads (14,000 MAP).

Frank


Hi Frank,

so if i have a 1630 bar proof XLR5 3" i can feed it with all HP steel , include 7/8 1800fps reloads ?

if not , what guns could take that loads ?

/ Peter


Well, yes and no. From a technical sense, no as CIP says that the maximum velocity is 430m/s at 2.5m. But, what they are hedging against is damage to the choke area due to the shot charge slamming into the choke's forcing cone at too high a velocity. That provision is in there because today there are still a good many guns being manufactured in CIP signatory countries that are built with fixed chokes. These fixed chokes are the most vulnerable. On the practical side, a gun that has choke tubes should be able to shoot these loads provided that the choke tube is changed to one that is designed for those loads. In fact, there's a good chance that the factory tubes that came with your gun are capable of handling that velocity. The best thing to do is to check directly with the manufacturer.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
User avatar
Frank Lopez
hunter
 
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:34 pm
Location: Long Island New York

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby solway gunner » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:39 pm

Franks got you all paranoid now.If your a native American living in the USA just observe SAAMI guidlines whilst reloading .


[quote="culot"][quote="Frank Lopez"]Standard CIP proof is 130% of the MAP. Standard SAAMI proof is 170% of the MAP. Those are the specified minimum proofs. 1630 bar proof is the SAAMI standard proof pressure for 3 1/2 inch 12ga loads (14,000 MAP)



so if i have a 1630 bar proof XLR5 3" i can feed it with all HP steel , include 7/8 1800fps reloads ?
IS THE PUBLISHED LOAD WITHIN SAAMI GUIDLINES-IF SO THE ANSWER IS YES.

if not , what guns could take that loads ?
IN REALITY,NONE.

Someone is going to get seriously injured here.
The superior proof levelis indictive of Italian gunmakers showing some great marketing and indeed gun barrel making skills showing that their gun barrels can withstand up to this pressure before things go wrong,by staking claim that their gun barrels are in house proofed at a higher level than the Cip regulations themselves!!!!!!!!!"look our gun is stronger than the need be,come and buy one". Now all that howitzer proof stuff has done is just created a scenario,just like in some of the above posts.
In reality ,if you load to this pressure ,you and your gun will fail painfuly ,miserably and very quickly.

Cip new superior steel proof is now both 3" and 3.5" 12ga and 10ga maximum velocity @1420fps maximum shot size BB ,shot through no tighter than Half choke UK choking(US modified).Momentum value of 15 ,1050bar max pressure.

SAAMI guidlines 12ga 3" 11,500psi 793 bar ,12ga 3.5"13996psi 965 bar

As you can see SAAMI has lower maximum working breech pressures but no velocity restrictions,CIP has a higher working max breech pressure but has a velocity,shot size and choke restriction implemented. Simple pimple.
Hope thats cleared things up for the 1600bar kamikaze klan.
solway gunner
hunter
 
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:50 am
Location: scotland uk

Next

Return to Shotshell, Reloading, Ballistics, & Chokes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: esox5 and 8 guests