The 20 can almost do it all

Interact with others on shot gun shells, reloading, ballistics, chokes, or anything that has to do with your shooting.

Moderators: donell67, NV Guide, pennsyltucky, Ohio Wildfowler

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:39 pm

pedro that is a sweet pattern :thumbsup:
User avatar
Elvis Kiwi
hunter
 
Posts: 674
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:16 am
Location: South Island New Zealand


Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby micneador » Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:02 am

Every time I look at one of my patterns, they look terrible, but they perform flawlessly in the field. I just about only pattern for turkeys now a days, and when I'm bored.
Never hire a plumber to do a pipe layers job.
User avatar
micneador
hunter
 
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:30 pm
Location: sapulpa, ok

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby solway gunner » Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:33 am

mudpack wrote:
hamernhonkers wrote:as the years have gone by I have realized that I didn't need the largest payload I could get to ensure a clean ethical kill, I just needed to be diligent in doing my part to ensure that I used my equipment and my skills with-in their limitations.

I think you are making a good argument but you are making it towards the wrong part of the equation, its not the gun that's not doing its part it is the person behind the trigger :thumbsup:


'honkers is absolutely correct. All gages need to be used within their limitations, 12 or 20 or 10. The bottom line is that the smaller the gage the more limited they are, simply because of hull capacity (payload). It IS the person pulling the trigger that controls the shot, and if he's shooting a larger gun, then he can effectively take longer shots. Not longer by much, but longer nonetheless.

Let's not turn this into a '20 gage with TSS is a more effective gun than a 12 with Winchester Xperts" thing; this thread isn't about effectiveness of different shot, it's about 20's and 12's. You can also say "a 20 gage with TSS shot is less effective than a 12 with TSS shot" can you not? Again, anything you can do with a 20 (TSS, choke tighter, etc.) you can do with a 12...and do it better. That's just plain fact.


no mudpack that is where quite clearly you are wrong .re read the posts,havent you been brainwashed enough yet?TSS is that great it actualy makes all gauges above 20ga redundant!!you simply toss your big, heavy numb 12s and ridiculous 10s into the next gun auction ,as they are history.,for they simply cannot compete with rat busting .410s or squirrel crushing 20s loaded with spellbinding pixie dust.

so to re cap;
all fresh/saltwater marsh pass shooters need to do is ditch steel shot,sell their 10ga/12ga magnums and buy either .410s or 20ga mags ,loaded naturally,with tss 9s or 7s for 50yrd plus goose hunting???????

but hang on a minute.
pedro 13 shoots mostly under 40yrds.. :huh: and yet HH wont sell his 10ga BUT is a user of TSS...
id suggest the majority on here get out hunting once a Hewlett Packard and read too much Alice in Wonderland.
solway gunner
hunter
 
Posts: 1427
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:50 am
Location: scotland uk

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby bubba682 » Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:09 am

All this talk about tss whats it cost per pound when it comes to my ten i'm keepin it till it wears out then i'm buyin a new one.....
Huntin the barrens of Cape Breton.
bubba682
hunter
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:07 pm
Location: cape breton canada

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby BT Justice » Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:27 am

This is an interesting conversation. I'm to cheap to spend that much on shot so I haven't got involved.
There is another factor involved here, some of actually enjoy shooting 10 ga guns if was legal I'd shoot an 8 or 4 ga.
Perhaps it's an extension of the manhood thing I'm not sure, but to me you can leave the small bores for quail or other small critters. I love the smell of lots of smokeless being burned up in the morning...... :lol3: :lol3: :lol3:
User avatar
BT Justice
hunter
 
Posts: 1376
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:43 pm

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby UmatillaJeff » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:05 am

hamernhonkers wrote:
UmatillaJeff wrote:I mean it's horrible advice as a general rule.



You want to shoot a bird with a small bore?
Fine... Just don't try and pass it off as the second coming of Christ to those of us who know better. The resource deserves far better then people who think they are sportsman because they go out under gunned and wound far more then they kill.

I've guided a a pile of misguided people who thought a small bore was more sporty when they didn't possess he ability or the know how to properly use the gun but they were the true sportsman.

A true sportsman uses enough gun. I just hope you stop when you have killed and wounded your limit for the day. Most of the sportsman I have been exposed to did not.

They just went on being sporty and wounded a bunch more birds in an effort to collect a sporty limit.

Most guys can't kill ducks dead at 40 yards with any gun and load combo. I just think it's horrible advice. Jeff


Jeff do you recognize the gun in these pics??


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

That gun with the 26" barrel has killed thousands of geese and ducks and like you up until 7 or so years ago it was the only gun I would use for geese and 90% of my duck shooting. I thought I had to use it to put the biggest payload I could out there to kill birds. One day I saw a sweet little 20 bore and even though I had never had any desire to own one I thought why not. I spent the summer shooting clay's and starlings with it then moved it onto sage hens, pine hens, doves etc. and realized that the 20 actually was a very effective little killer. I thought why not give it a go on ducks......well to my surprise I did very well with it. Before I knew it had 8 20 bores and unless I was specifically targeting long range geese the 20 became my gauge of choice for ducks/geese. The funny part is my kill rate did not go down from using the 10 or the 12 for duck/goose hunting.........in fact due to the need to use it with in its effective range my kill to shell ratio actually went up slightly.

Jeff I like you in the fact that you remind me of me back in the day. I was all about using biggest payload of shot/shot size to ensure I was making the most ethical kill I could. Well as the years have gone by I have realized that I didn't need the largest payload I could get to ensure a clean ethical kill, I just needed to be diligent in doing my part to ensure that I used my equipment and my skills with-in their limitations.

I know that I can break out my 10 bore and 9 shots out of 10 on a rising mallard or goose at 60 yards I can put it right back down, I know that with my 20 and a good old plain load of steel I can not make that shot ever, but if its a mallard at 40 yards.......9 times out of 10 I will put it right back down. I know the limitations of myself and my loads just as you know yours with the 10.

I think you are making a good argument but you are making it towards the wrong part of the equation, its not the gun that's not doing its part it is the person behind the trigger :thumbsup:




I hear you.... When I am not guiding, I shoot a 28ga over the decoys with an certain handload that will kill them DEAD farther then it should.

Like you, I spend the off season shooting. Thousands of rounds at Starlings. In fact I own a giant spread of homemade Starling decoys so I can shoot them in decoy fashion.

The man who shoots all the time can do quite well. I just spend far too much time with the average hunter to advocate a small bore to guys who cant kill them with a big bore.

Yes... I do recognize my favorite fowling piece! If guys could shoot I would never need it. Jeff
Count all the times you shoot a bird on the water. This will teach you about how effective the shells you think are so great are.
UmatillaJeff
hunter
 
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:12 pm

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby UmatillaJeff » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:16 am

bubba682 wrote:All this talk about tss whats it cost per pound when it comes to my ten i'm keepin it till it wears out then i'm buyin a new one.....



I agree with the above. I can load shells for less hen 12 bucks a box that will wack ducks dead at 60 yards. Why would I want to shoot TSS? I can see that it is wonderful but at the price of TSS, I could shoot lead, get caught, pay the ticket, and still be money ahead!!!! Jeff
Count all the times you shoot a bird on the water. This will teach you about how effective the shells you think are so great are.
UmatillaJeff
hunter
 
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:12 pm

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby cootlover » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:18 am

At the end of the day if you need to shoot a 12 ga go ahead its a free country. I am just trying to figure out at what yardage is your 12 ga is doing better than my little 20ga . Jeff thanks for the comment I shoot my 20-28 ga all year long. It don't matter what gauge your shooting it you cant hit a moving target out of the air . Anytime I see a bird I figure out the lead in my head I do it any were I am at trust me it works :thumbsup:
cootlover
hunter
 
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:39 pm

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby UmatillaJeff » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:30 am

I would like this whole topic better if it stated that a true master with a shotgun can almost do it all with a small bore. I would not recommend it for people who are not averaging 0ver 60% with a larger gun.
Last edited by UmatillaJeff on Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Count all the times you shoot a bird on the water. This will teach you about how effective the shells you think are so great are.
UmatillaJeff
hunter
 
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:12 pm

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby mudpack » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:46 am

BBK wrote:The only true limitation to a gauge/load is when the projectiles being shot are no longer lethal.


If I read that correctly, then you are still laboring under the mistaken conception that the maximum range of a shotgun is that distance at which the individual pellets will fail to penetrate adequately. If so, you are believing the wrong people.

The maximum range of a shotgun is that yardage at which pattern density falls off to the point that it will no longer consistently place 5 or so pellets into the body/head/neck of a bird.

I.e. it doesn't matter how fast the pellets are going if none of them strike a vital zone; the bird still flies away, possibly with a pellet or two in the gut.
mudpack
hunter
 
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:40 am
Location: Central Kansas

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby BBK » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:38 am

mudpack wrote:
BBK wrote:The only true limitation to a gauge/load is when the projectiles being shot are no longer lethal.


If I read that correctly, then you are still laboring under the mistaken conception that the maximum range of a shotgun is that distance at which the individual pellets will fail to penetrate adequately. If so, you are believing the wrong people.

The maximum range of a shotgun is that yardage at which pattern density falls off to the point that it will no longer consistently place 5 or so pellets into the body/head/neck of a bird.

I.e. it doesn't matter how fast the pellets are going if none of them strike a vital zone; the bird still flies away, possibly with a pellet or two in the gut.


You took that quote out of context. I'll type it again, but be sure to read the WHOLE thing.

THE ONLY LIMITATION TO A GAUGE/LOAD IS WHEN THE PROJECTILES BEING SHOT ARE NO LONGER LETHAL. ALL GAUGES CAN BE CHOKED DOWN TO KILL AT THE MAXIMUM EFFECTIVE RANGE OF THE PROJECTILES.

Mud, you know I'm on your side.
BBK
hunter
 
Posts: 2927
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby UmatillaJeff » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:07 pm

That isn't really true.... The 10ga with big shot runs out of density long before it runs out of energy. Well... any gauge with big shot for that matter. Jeff
Count all the times you shoot a bird on the water. This will teach you about how effective the shells you think are so great are.
UmatillaJeff
hunter
 
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:12 pm

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:17 pm

pattern fails before penertration.....is a shotgunning term from waaaaaay back in the dark ages :no:
User avatar
Elvis Kiwi
hunter
 
Posts: 674
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:16 am
Location: South Island New Zealand

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby BBK » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:27 pm

UmatillaJeff wrote:That isn't really true.... The 10ga with big shot runs out of density long before it runs out of energy. Well... any gauge with big shot for that matter. Jeff


Big shot would be the exception, you are right!

When I typed it out I was thinking the traditional duck loads, 4's, 3's, 2's, 1's, BB's. If you put enough time and money into it, you can choke them all down to kill at their maximum range.
BBK
hunter
 
Posts: 2927
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby BBK » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:28 pm

Elvis Kiwi wrote:pattern fails before penertration.....is a shotgunning term from waaaaaay back in the dark ages :no:


Yep, back when fixed choke barrels were the norm. There was no option to spend a couple hundred bucks to dial in a specific load to kill at long range. You shot what you had until your pattern failed.
BBK
hunter
 
Posts: 2927
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby John Duck » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:52 pm

micneador wrote:Every time I look at one of my patterns, they look terrible, but they perform flawlessly in the field. I just about only pattern for turkeys now a days, and when I'm bored.


Pattern boards went out with the sputnix for those in the know.

Most 99% of shooters are not as good as the shooters on here claim they are.

Rourk said in Africa "Use more gun"

the very best waterfowlers for the last hundred years have said on American waterfowl USE MORE SHOT

I'd love to see some of these guys in a small duck boat taking shots at Cans doing figure 8's out over the decoys at 70 mph in thick bulky clothing with birds coming from behind, oblique angles galore and your body twisted and contorted and the buttstock not even in your shoulder pocket half the time. 20 ga is BULL in this scenario. Just ask the old market hunters sitting in coffin sinkboxes on the Chesapeake. 6, 8 and maybe a 10 gage was their motto. Perfect conditions for a real expert, maybe a 20, for 99.9 % of todays shooters. NOT.
John Duck
hunter
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:25 pm

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:51 am

BBK wrote:
Elvis Kiwi wrote:pattern fails before penertration.....is a shotgunning term from waaaaaay back in the dark ages :no:


Yep, back when fixed choke barrels were the norm. There was no option to spend a couple hundred bucks to dial in a specific load to kill at long range. You shot what you had until your pattern failed.

still applies today regardless of how good of super duper choke you have.
even a super tight pattern will run out of density before penertrating energy.
User avatar
Elvis Kiwi
hunter
 
Posts: 674
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:16 am
Location: South Island New Zealand

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:18 am

and as for pattern boards being out dated........it shows the true calibre of the poster to be able to post that big of pile of B.S. :huh:
User avatar
Elvis Kiwi
hunter
 
Posts: 674
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:16 am
Location: South Island New Zealand

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby pedro13 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:53 am

Elvis Kiwi wrote:pedro that is a sweet pattern :thumbsup:


Thanks. Way over kill but....


Just got back from a field hunt this morning. Two 20 gauges and one 12ga. The twentys got four large geese and four mallards. The 12 got his two geese and one mallard and lost a mallard. My buddy was shooting his moss 500 20 loaded with old federal 1oz 2s factory mod choke. I was shooting an m2 20ga with TSS x steel IC choke. The big bore was loaded with 1 1/8 4 experts. Also put a Wolff spring in this morning and the difference is night and day.
pedro13
hunter
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:03 pm

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby mudpack » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:10 pm

BBK wrote: ALL GAUGES CAN BE CHOKED DOWN TO KILL AT THE MAXIMUM EFFECTIVE RANGE OF THE PROJECTILES.
Mud, you know I'm on your side.


You may be on my side of this fence, BBK, but that statement might be misleading; no choke exists that can throw an effective pattern at the distance at which #2's and larger shot will still have adequate penetration. This is particularly true with the smaller gauge guns. While you CAN kill a bird with one golden BB, that doesn't mean it's an effective way to do it. I don't like trusting luck.

"even a super tight pattern will run out of density before penetrating energy." Yes, that's the bottom line.
mudpack
hunter
 
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:40 am
Location: Central Kansas

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby dakotashooter2 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:26 pm

I'd love to see some of these guys in a small duck boat taking shots at Cans doing figure 8's out over the decoys at 70 mph in thick bulky clothing with birds coming from behind, oblique angles galore and your body twisted and contorted and the buttstock not even in your shoulder pocket half the time. 20 ga is BULL in this scenario. Just ask the old market hunters sitting in coffin sinkboxes on the Chesapeake. 6, 8 and maybe a 10 gage was their motto.


Apples to oranges............ The goal of market hunters was to get as many birds in one shot as possible. Remember that for the most part these guys "flock shoot" . That is not the goal or tactic of most sport hunters.

FWIW when I am hunting in a layout blind I do much better on birds that I have to twist around to shoot, with my 20 than my 12. The 20 is lighter, a bit more compact and far more recoverable for that second shot............

For those putting down the 20 ga I'd be interested in knowing how many rounds you feel you have put through the 20. A comparison based on a few boxes isn't gonna cut it.

A patterning board still has some use. A consistent pattern will be more predicable in adverse conditions than an inconsistent one.
User avatar
dakotashooter2
hunter
 
Posts: 1973
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby John Duck » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:13 am

dakotashooter2 wrote:
I'd love to see some of these guys in a small duck boat taking shots at Cans doing figure 8's out over the decoys at 70 mph in thick bulky clothing with birds coming from behind, oblique angles galore and your body twisted and contorted and the buttstock not even in your shoulder pocket half the time. 20 ga is BULL in this scenario. Just ask the old market hunters sitting in coffin sinkboxes on the Chesapeake. 6, 8 and maybe a 10 gage was their motto.


Apples to oranges............ The goal of market hunters was to get as many birds in one shot as possible. Remember that for the most part these guys "flock shoot" . That is not the goal or tactic of most sport hunters.

FWIW when I am hunting in a layout blind I do much better on birds that I have to twist around to shoot, with my 20 than my 12. The 20 is lighter, a bit more compact and far more recoverable for that second shot............

For those putting down the 20 ga I'd be interested in knowing how many rounds you feel you have put through the 20. A comparison based on a few boxes isn't gonna cut it.

A patterning board still has some use. A consistent pattern will be more predicable in adverse conditions than an inconsistent one.


They flock shot when possible, but that was not the norm. They shot the same numbers and pairs and singles we do today. My main point is this and you can argue it if you want, but MORE shot is assurance that you will not cripple birds or lose them compared to less shot. You may fool yourself and yes, you will kill birds, but many will die quicker and faster and less will fly away with more shot considering all conditions. Just common sense! Again, most of us do not hit the bird with the center of the pattern, hence the uselessness of most pattern board comparisions. Most birds are getting hit with the outside diameters and shot strings of the load. Even some of my detractors here agree with this. (the part about birds getting not hit often with the center of the load).
John Duck
hunter
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:25 pm

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:50 am

which same says that you should pattern ...you arent just looking at central core but for an even overall pattern and when it gets patchy on the fringes you getting past its usefulness...the very fringes you are advocating using to kill birds....maybe you should use a fully rifled choke as that way you wont have to worry about central core of pattern at all and will have plenty of density in your edges to use :no: :no:
User avatar
Elvis Kiwi
hunter
 
Posts: 674
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:16 am
Location: South Island New Zealand

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby cootlover » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:53 am

It took my brother in law about two seasons to get dialed in with a 20 gauge now it's all he uses ya I don't kill every duck stone dead but who does :huh: anyway that's what's the dog for.
cootlover
hunter
 
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:39 pm

Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby hamernhonkers » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:01 am

John Duck wrote:
dakotashooter2 wrote:
I'd love to see some of these guys in a small duck boat taking shots at Cans doing figure 8's out over the decoys at 70 mph in thick bulky clothing with birds coming from behind, oblique angles galore and your body twisted and contorted and the buttstock not even in your shoulder pocket half the time. 20 ga is BULL in this scenario. Just ask the old market hunters sitting in coffin sinkboxes on the Chesapeake. 6, 8 and maybe a 10 gage was their motto.


Apples to oranges............ The goal of market hunters was to get as many birds in one shot as possible. Remember that for the most part these guys "flock shoot" . That is not the goal or tactic of most sport hunters.

FWIW when I am hunting in a layout blind I do much better on birds that I have to twist around to shoot, with my 20 than my 12. The 20 is lighter, a bit more compact and far more recoverable for that second shot............

For those putting down the 20 ga I'd be interested in knowing how many rounds you feel you have put through the 20. A comparison based on a few boxes isn't gonna cut it.

A patterning board still has some use. A consistent pattern will be more predicable in adverse conditions than an inconsistent one.


They flock shot when possible, but that was not the norm. They shot the same numbers and pairs and singles we do today. My main point is this and you can argue it if you want, but MORE shot is assurance that you will not cripple birds or lose them compared to less shot. You may fool yourself and yes, you will kill birds, but many will die quicker and faster and less will fly away with more shot considering all conditions. Just common sense! Again, most of us do not hit the bird with the center of the pattern, hence the uselessness of most pattern board comparisions. Most birds are getting hit with the outside diameters and shot strings of the load. Even some of my detractors here agree with this. (the part about birds getting not hit often with the center of the load).


So John would your choice be a lead load and gun from the 30's or a modern steel load and gun from 2013 to hunt ducks with if you could choose to use either one and why?

Sent from my BlackBerry 9360 using Tapatalk
Hello

David wrote:
I have suspended the suspension on the suspended, allowing the suspended to post in a non-suspending manner.
User avatar
hamernhonkers
hunter
 
Posts: 3096
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:56 am

PreviousNext

Return to Shotshell, Reloading, Ballistics, & Chokes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests