Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby waterfowlman » Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:25 am

Tea Party folks.....
American patriots who actually have conservative principals and values they believe in. What fools!
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby beretta24 » Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:19 am

waterfowlman wrote:Tea Party folks.....
American patriots who actually have conservative principals and values they believe in. What fools!

Who wouldn't want the NSA and IRS keeping an eye on those wackos
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby blackduckdog2 » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:27 am

waterfowlman wrote:Tea Party folks.....
American patriots who actually have conservative principals and values they believe in. What fools!

So you're saying that as long as someone has conservative principals and values they believe in, they cannot be fools? That must make life awfully easy for you
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby waterfowlman » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:37 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
waterfowlman wrote:Tea Party folks.....
American patriots who actually have conservative principals and values they believe in. What fools!

So you're saying that as long as someone has conservative principals and values they believe in, they cannot be fools? That must make life awfully easy for you


Perhaps it does .....All I know is that this country wasn't built by the millions of slackers/beggars running around with EBT cards in their back pocket.
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby blackduckdog2 » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:39 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
Andy W wrote:I'd say the leftists would have the biggest problem with #5.

Well, maybe I'll have to turn in my leftist papers then, because like every other liberal on this board, I am ALL about keeping the free market free. But you just go on making up arguments you can win, and ignoring the real ones

So you opposed Obamacare because it clearly moved to a radically less free market instead of moving towards a free market from the manipulated mess that we have? It was a huge move in the wrong direction, if you do believe in freedom and the personal responsibility that comes with it.

We appear to differ on precisely what measures should be taken in order to assure the free market. Who'da thunk it?!?

If you are required by law to buy a product, is that a free market?

My definition of free market includes freedom. The buyers can choose to buy or not. The sellers can choose to buy or not. No fraud, no coercion, no deception. The ability and freedom to make informed decisions as well as the freedom to make foolish decisions. Basic freedom.

What is your definition of a free market? You appear to have one. Please spell it out so we can see where we differ.

It was not free before Obamacare. Totally uninformed consumer making decisions where they had no clue how it impacted them because they had no clue about the cost they were paying whether through their employer or through medicare or through most mechanism where the consumers paid indirectly for their health care. The one market that was closer to free than most. Obama just eliminated in toto because he personally decided that millions of Americans were too stupid to know what they liked and wanted to keep, so he took away their freedom to choose what they had chosen. How is that not anti-freedom. Edicts from on high imposed upon the subjects. That's exactly what Obamacare is.

Get back to me when you can buy a car without seat belts

So you cannot define a free market until you can buy a car without seat belts? :eek: You need to seek some serious mental health help.

You do have sort of advanced English degree, do you not? Why is it so hard to communicate your definition of a free market? Could it be that like most liberal definitions of freedom, it revolves around government control? :yes:

Yes, most "freedom" has an aspect of authoritative control without which it would surely melt away like cigarette papers on which the bumblebees have urinated (that's from a graduate class in contemporary American poetry. You could look it up). This is so ridiculous, Spinner…….. Couldn't you just once cut to the chase? We each believe that controls are necessary. You happen to believe that those controls can be set in stone, and I recognize that they change according to demand. If nobody's practicing insider trading, then we don't need to control for it. If a whole lotta jerkoffs are, and it threatens the viability of the market, then you make laws. It's very much a fluid thing but goddammit I am not telling you anything you don't already know (or believe) but your insistence on somehow arguing as if I were all for total government ownership of all assets because you refuse to deal with any nuance is just massively tiring
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby dave79 » Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:23 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
Andy W wrote:I'd say the leftists would have the biggest problem with #5.

Well, maybe I'll have to turn in my leftist papers then, because like every other liberal on this board, I am ALL about keeping the free market free. But you just go on making up arguments you can win, and ignoring the real ones


Abiding by the constitution is point #5, Point #4 was the free markets.
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby SpinnerMan » Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:32 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:Yes, most "freedom" has an aspect of authoritative control
Everything else is trying to spin your belief in a need for control. And control is what separates us. That is for sure.

Obama, et. al. felt like they are entitled to be that authoritarian that controls people making what they deem as poor choices which is wildly different than punishing criminals who have harmed others. They had no desire to allow people to make decision and live by those decisions. They are control freaks.

But, no freedom does not have any aspect of authoritative control.

Control is not necessary. Punishment is necessary. Law enforcement is necessary. For those that do not allow others to freely live their life. Control fails unless of course, you put me in control. Otherwise you get some incompetent, corrupt, arrogant jackass that screws everything up in control.

Insider trading is a form of fraud. They are thieves stealing from others. They are harming others and should be deterred by effective law enforcement and harsh punishment.

Yes the government must protect the rights of people to live their lives freely. And that means they are free to be a complete dumbass even if that means they buy subpar health insurance or none at all :eek:

The government also has a responsibility to provide the ability to make informed decisions. Labeling requirements on food are the perfect example. That is not control. If you want to eat 4,000 calories with 1,000 grams of fat and sodium while smoking unfiltered cigarettes, that is what freedom is. Control is a whole different thing.

They should protect all aspects of the free market. They should not control anyone's decisions that they make. If you are not free to be a fool. You live in authoritarian nation.
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby blackduckdog2 » Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:48 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
Control is not necessary. Punishment is necessary..

This is nothing short of amazing
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby SpinnerMan » Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:16 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Control is not necessary. Punishment is necessary..

This is nothing short of amazing

You have children. You know the difference between controlling them and punishing them when they did wrong.

I know you are not that stupid.
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby blackduckdog2 » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:34 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Control is not necessary. Punishment is necessary..

This is nothing short of amazing

You have children. You know the difference between controlling them and punishing them when they did wrong.

I know you are not that stupid.

Punishment is rather a time honored means for controlling one's offspring.
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby assateague » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:21 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
waterfowlman wrote:Tea Party folks.....
American patriots who actually have conservative principals and values they believe in. What fools!

So you're saying that as long as someone has conservative principals and values they believe in, they cannot be fools? That must make life awfully easy for you



As opposed to you saying that as long as someone has liberal principles and values they believe in, they cannot be fools? Must make life awfully easy for you.

Your modus operandi has been demonstrated to be:

Tea Party- find a few idiots you disagree with, and use them to condemn the whole movement.

Democrat Party- ignore or excuse the few idiots you disagree with, and condone their actions as well-intentioned.

It's quite transparent and feeble, really. Your attachment to love of the government teat, while proclaiming otherwise, is just silly.
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby SpinnerMan » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:37 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Control is not necessary. Punishment is necessary..

This is nothing short of amazing

You have children. You know the difference between controlling them and punishing them when they did wrong.

I know you are not that stupid.

Punishment is rather a time honored means for controlling one's offspring.

You want to play these silly games and say that punishing criminal activity is the authoritative control of the "free" market that you were referring. That is EXACTLY what I expected. Trying to pretend like you meant control criminals. :lol3: And I'm sure when you punished your children, you would tell your liberal friends that you are controlling your children. :lol3:

My definition of free market includes freedom. The buyers can choose to buy or not. The sellers can choose to buy or not. No fraud, no coercion, no deception. The ability and freedom to make informed decisions as well as the freedom to make foolish decisions. Basic freedom.

You said that I was lying and recognized the need for authoritative control. Clearly punishment for those that commit fraud, coercion and deception was already in my definition. You said it also includes authoritative control, but now are back pedalling like a duck about to die. Hopefully I will see a lot more of that today. Yesterday was pretty good.
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby ScaupHunter » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:39 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Control is not necessary. Punishment is necessary..

This is nothing short of amazing


Only to those who are mentally stunted. To much poetry and not enough logic in your education.
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby blackduckdog2 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:25 am

ScaupHunter wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Control is not necessary. Punishment is necessary..

This is nothing short of amazing


Only to those who are mentally stunted. To much poetry and not enough logic in your education.

I'd like to say too much engineering in yours but you're probably lying about that too. No, not you Spinner, (your bona fides are pretty unassailable) Look……. I'm glad your hunt went well, but if you can't recognize that laws, and their attendant consequences (i.e. punishments) are how we orient, cajole, maneuver, motivate and otherwise exert CONTROL over ourselves as a society, then the discussion's really jumped the shark. Good shooting, though
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby jaegerfisherman » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:32 am

Limiting governement. Hmm. I'm sure the tea party would be just fine with cutting back the defense budget a lot. Not likely. Every party always wants to cut but they never want to give up what they like. Instead of building new mega destroyers use the money for better means.
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby blackduckdog2 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:41 am

jaegerfisherman wrote:Limiting governement. Hmm. I'm sure the tea party would be just fine with cutting back the defense budget a lot. Not likely. Every party always wants to cut but they never want to give up what they like. Instead of building new mega destroyers use the money for better means.

In all fairness, I think some of them would be willing to cut back on defense spending. Not the majority, by any stretch, but some of them see American military world dominance as a bad thing
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby assateague » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:40 am

I don't think the POSSIBILITY of US military world dominance is a bad thing, speaking only to capabilities. I see no problem with the 2-war doctrine as it is. What I see is a problem is the reactionary planning, budgeting, R&D process. I see it too often- for whatever reason (usually PC related), we are always preparing to fight the LAST war, not the one that's coming. And that's stupid and lazy, but it's far easier to get budgetary approval when you have a quantifiable threat with quantifiable results to base it on. Unfortunately, that isn't helpful, really. Add to that the fact that the last audit revealed the pentagon couldn't account for something like 20% of spending and there IS a problem.

But saying an across the board cut in spending is a good idea is wrong. Why do I feel that way? Because it completely disregards the constitutional authority angle of much (if not most) federal spending. To cut 10% from the defense budget, and 10% from the "studies on drug use among prostitutes in Mongolia" budget is stupid. One of these things is constitutionally mandated. By treating all federal spending as if it is equal is asinine. I'll take what I can get for now, but it's well beyond the time to look at ALL federal spending from a "is the federal government even allowed to do this" perspective. As soon as bridges to nowhere, earned income credits for illegal aliens, and the like are stopped, I'll be wholeheartedly on board for matching cuts at DoD.
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby slowshooter » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:07 pm

Lol.
All this for a bowl of borscht.
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby ScaupHunter » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:44 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Control is not necessary. Punishment is necessary..

This is nothing short of amazing


Only to those who are mentally stunted. To much poetry and not enough logic in your education.

I'd like to say too much engineering in yours but you're probably lying about that too. No, not you Spinner, (your bona fides are pretty unassailable) Look……. I'm glad your hunt went well, but if you can't recognize that laws, and their attendant consequences (i.e. punishments) are how we orient, cajole, maneuver, motivate and otherwise exert CONTROL over ourselves as a society, then the discussion's really jumped the shark. Good shooting, though


Just keep on trying that tact. :lol3: Must suck living life as a useless old fool. Prattling on about your ideals while a bunch of young political upstarts are building their power base to tear it down. How does it feel to hate so deeply, to be unable to get others to believe your emotional pleas? We the people are steadily growing more and more tired of the liberal game. Obama was the best you could field? Your arguments are hollow and your words false. Your entire world view is failing world wide. Enjoy your hate and despair. More is coming.

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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby blackduckdog2 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:50 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Control is not necessary. Punishment is necessary..

This is nothing short of amazing


Only to those who are mentally stunted. To much poetry and not enough logic in your education.

I'd like to say too much engineering in yours but you're probably lying about that too. No, not you Spinner, (your bona fides are pretty unassailable) Look……. I'm glad your hunt went well, but if you can't recognize that laws, and their attendant consequences (i.e. punishments) are how we orient, cajole, maneuver, motivate and otherwise exert CONTROL over ourselves as a society, then the discussion's really jumped the shark. Good shooting, though


Just keep on trying that tact. :lol3: Must suck living life as a useless old fool. Prattling on about your ideals while a bunch of young political upstarts are building their power base to tear it down. How does it feel to hate so deeply, to be unable to get others to believe your emotional pleas? We the people are steadily growing more and more tired of the liberal game. Obama was the best you could field? Your arguments are hollow and your words false. Your entire world view is failing world wide. Enjoy your hate and despair. More is coming.

By the way, Jesus loves you. In case your wondering that would be God.

At least you're consistent, blueballs…..you don't waver in the percentage of total bullshit included in each and every post. I'd truly be insulted if you didn't lie as much about me as you do about yourself :thumbsup:
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby blackduckdog2 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:56 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:You said that I was lying and recognized the need for authoritative control.
Can you point out where I accused you of lying? We're having a major disconnect on terms (even more major than usual) and perceived concepts here and I get the sense that's what's leading to the escalation and nastiness (very little of which has been coming from this end, I feel compelled to note). Well, that and the fact that you want to destroy the free market with anarchy :hammer: :hammer:
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:46 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:You said that I was lying and recognized the need for authoritative control.
Can you point out where I accused you of lying? We're having a major disconnect on terms (even more major than usual) and perceived concepts here and I get the sense that's what's leading to the escalation and nastiness (very little of which has been coming from this end, I feel compelled to note). Well, that and the fact that you want to destroy the free market with anarchy :hammer: :hammer:

So just give your definition of a free market. It's that easy. You do have the ability to articulate your definition of a free market, do you not? This is how it works when you are trying to understand each other and solve a problem. To do that, you must find the points of misunderstanding and disagreement. This is what I do for a living and I do it very well. Obviously, I don't use a pugilistic style outside of the Controversial Issue forum on a duck hunting website.

I gave you my definition. You can edit it, totally rewrite it, give a completely different definition, ... Back seat driving, well any idiot can do that.

Bottom line is that I am pretty sure that you have never seriously contemplated what a real world free market would look like. When that market would fail in practice and what it would take to make it work in practice.

National defense is not nor never can be made to be a free market. The government literally has the authority to order you to your certain death in order to defend the nation.

Health care can and should be a very free market. It is no more complicated than caring for your home, your car, or your life. All things where insurance plays a significant role in doing that. Going back to Sesame Street logic, one of these things in not like the others. And that is the one that is failing badly, so the solution is probably not to make it even less like the others, but if you believe that authoritative control must be part of the solution, you probably won't see the difference.

The next question is how much regulation. The regulation needs to ensure that people are not being defrauded and not to control them so they make the "right" decision. It's to give them the tools to make the right decision and a large part of that comes in the K-12 education. Idiots cannot function in a free society any more than children. They do not to be controlled and if they remain idiots, they need to be controlled for their entire life since they never grow up. If you want to control people, having an educated and informed populace is counter productive, but you see no correlation with those seeking more control and the failure of them to educate anyone's children but their own future ruling class children. :huh:

There is no excuse for probably greater than 95% of high school graduates to not fully understanding the basics of insurance. It is an essential life skill and it should be an essential part of the curriculum. That is if you are to be a responsible adult and not a grown child letting others control this essential part of your life. Granted when you are young, you do not see the value, but as you and I well know, when you get older, it will be essential. However, given that 95% of the politicians do not understand insurance and it's limited but essential roll that it plays, we get debacles such as Obamacare. The market becomes less and less free, more and more controlled by corrupt and/or so-called authorities and as we see today millions end up suffering because that authority declares their insurance policy sub-par and they are unnecessarily left uninsured.

We are in a big Image hole. We've been digging this giant hole for generations. It is going to be really Image expensive to fill back in that big Image hole. Putting subcharged equipment at the bottom of that hole and digging faster is not the answer, but you and those like you are so invested in decision to dig that hole that you will NEVER admit your error. Ironically, the cost of filling that hole back in will be the death knell for actually fixing it. You will be able to lie to yourself and others about the cost of more digging and those of us that want to fix it will not be able to lie to ourselves and others about the true cost of fixing it. So it want matter how many times, if you like it, you can keep it lies are exposed, enough people will want to believe that this time is not like all the others, when they really know that it is.

However, just put some thought in what a free market means to you. And don't give me that in the real world, nothing perfect exists. I already acknowledged that in my definition. Law enforcement is essential in the real world. Regulation is essential, but highly variable depending on the market. Regulation is NOT about control. It is not about deciding the outcome. It is about empowering people to make informed decisions and not trying to force them to not by insurance deemed subpar by a few hundred people in DC when MILLIONS have decided it was the best value for them at that time and under their current financial situation.
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby blackduckdog2 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:40 pm

Oh, wait a minute…... I just remembered I'm trying to have a decent discussion concerning market restraints, regulations and by extension, ethics…….. with a guy who thinks he should be able to sell his own kidney on the open market. My bad
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:33 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:Oh, wait a minute…... I just remembered I'm trying to have a decent discussion concerning market restraints, regulations and by extension, ethics…….. with a guy who thinks he should be able to sell his own kidney on the open market. My bad

Why do you believe that you should NOT be able to sell your kidney? :huh:

Other than being a control-freak, what is the reason that you can give something away, but not take a penny for it? I'd like to hear that argument.
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Re: Boone and Crockett Tea Party Points

Postby assateague » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:14 pm

And I'm sure he feels it would be perfectly acceptable if you wanted to pay a doctor to go in, scramble your kidney with a pair of sharp scissors, and then vacuum it out.
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