And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

A forum not related to waterfowl for discussing the more controversial and hot topic issues in our world from immigration, politics, the war, etc..

Moderators: Smackaduck, MM

And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby beretta24 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:51 pm

Who needs a senate and a congress when you can just have a simple majority make decisions for the country. WE. ARE. F*****.
User avatar
beretta24
State Moderator
 
Posts: 5996
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:54 pm
Location: MN


Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby blackduckdog2 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:54 pm

beretta24 wrote:Who needs a senate and a congress when you can just have a simple majority make decisions for the country. WE. ARE. F*****.

You think the founding fathers were all about the filibuster? Maybe if the republicans hadn't abused it to historic levels this wouldn't have happened
"We have met the enemy, and he is us."
Walt Kelly, via Slow's avatar. Look it up
User avatar
blackduckdog2
hunter
 
Posts: 6290
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:02 am

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby beretta24 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:04 pm

Historic levels? It took Bush longer to get appointees confirmed than Obama. Not to mention a simple majority was viewed as inherently destructive to a republic. Watch them stack the appellate courts with liberals and effectively block challenges from reaching the SCOTUS.
User avatar
beretta24
State Moderator
 
Posts: 5996
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:54 pm
Location: MN

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:52 pm

beretta24 wrote:Historic levels? It took Bush longer to get appointees confirmed than Obama. Not to mention a simple majority was viewed as inherently destructive to a republic. Watch them stack the appellate courts with liberals and effectively block challenges from reaching the SCOTUS.

agreed...this is very bad for our republic.
The Cajun 7 Course Meal; 1 lb. of boudin and a six pack of Abita beer.

Save the Marsh, Eat a Nutria!

Never fart in your waders, it'll give you WORTS.
User avatar
Indaswamp
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 57636
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:40 pm
Location: South Louisiana

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby cartervj » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:17 pm

Obama, Biden and many other Dems despised the idea back in 2005 :loll: :loll: :lol3:
Oh the hypocrisy that keeps oozing from the Obama Gang :finger head:

“Nothing makes me more certain of the victory of our ideas than our success in the universities” – Adolf H, 1930
User avatar
cartervj
hunter
 
Posts: 7343
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:01 pm
Location: NW AL

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby clampdaddy » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:34 pm

The "gridlock" that these guys constantly b!tch about is what keeps the country from spinning all the way to the left or all the way to the right whenever majority power changes hands. They waited to long for what they want to do. It will end up fu@&ing them in the future.
User avatar
clampdaddy
hunter
 
Posts: 3637
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Where spoonies go to die

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby blackduckdog2 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:24 pm

Like I told my 8th grade social studies teacher: the filibuster is cheating. And I don't care who's using it
"We have met the enemy, and he is us."
Walt Kelly, via Slow's avatar. Look it up
User avatar
blackduckdog2
hunter
 
Posts: 6290
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:02 am

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:31 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:Like I told my 8th grade social studies teacher: the filibuster is cheating. And I don't care who's using it

they are hypocrites for opposing it now....
The Cajun 7 Course Meal; 1 lb. of boudin and a six pack of Abita beer.

Save the Marsh, Eat a Nutria!

Never fart in your waders, it'll give you WORTS.
User avatar
Indaswamp
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 57636
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:40 pm
Location: South Louisiana

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby clampdaddy » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:41 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:Like I told my 8th grade social studies teacher: the filibuster is cheating. And I don't care who's using it

It's not cheating. It's like icing a kicker or kneeling to run out the clock. Just part of the game that they all agreed to play.
User avatar
clampdaddy
hunter
 
Posts: 3637
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Where spoonies go to die

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby blackduckdog2 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:00 pm

clampdaddy wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Like I told my 8th grade social studies teacher: the filibuster is cheating. And I don't care who's using it

It's not cheating. It's like icing a kicker or kneeling to run out the clock. Just part of the game that they all agreed to play.

Well if all you're concerned with is the letter of the law here, I guess what Harry Reid is doing is pretty according to Hoyle too, huh?
"We have met the enemy, and he is us."
Walt Kelly, via Slow's avatar. Look it up
User avatar
blackduckdog2
hunter
 
Posts: 6290
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:02 am

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:04 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Like I told my 8th grade social studies teacher: the filibuster is cheating. And I don't care who's using it

It's not cheating. It's like icing a kicker or kneeling to run out the clock. Just part of the game that they all agreed to play.

Well if all you're concerned with is the letter of the law here, I guess what Harry Reid is doing is pretty according to Hoyle too, huh?

what? :huh:
The Cajun 7 Course Meal; 1 lb. of boudin and a six pack of Abita beer.

Save the Marsh, Eat a Nutria!

Never fart in your waders, it'll give you WORTS.
User avatar
Indaswamp
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 57636
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:40 pm
Location: South Louisiana

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby clampdaddy » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:43 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Like I told my 8th grade social studies teacher: the filibuster is cheating. And I don't care who's using it

It's not cheating. It's like icing a kicker or kneeling to run out the clock. Just part of the game that they all agreed to play.

Well if all you're concerned with is the letter of the law here, I guess what Harry Reid is doing is pretty according to Hoyle too, huh?

The letter of the law isn't what I'm concerned about. How did you come to that conclusion? If Reid wants to change it and has the votes, well, it is what it is. But I still hate seeing nostalgia being cast out on a whim because someone's panties are in a knot.

As a hypothetical, let's just say that one day president Limbaugh decides to appoint Ted Nugent to the head of the head of the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms.......you're gonna want that filibuster. :lol3:
User avatar
clampdaddy
hunter
 
Posts: 3637
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Where spoonies go to die

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby blackduckdog2 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:47 am

clampdaddy wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Like I told my 8th grade social studies teacher: the filibuster is cheating. And I don't care who's using it

It's not cheating. It's like icing a kicker or kneeling to run out the clock. Just part of the game that they all agreed to play.

Well if all you're concerned with is the letter of the law here, I guess what Harry Reid is doing is pretty according to Hoyle too, huh?

The letter of the law isn't what I'm concerned about. How did you come to that conclusion? If Reid wants to change it and has the votes, well, it is what it is. But I still hate seeing nostalgia being cast out on a whim because someone's panties are in a knot.

As a hypothetical, let's just say that one day president Limbaugh decides to appoint Ted Nugent to the head of the head of the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms.......you're gonna want that filibuster. :lol3:

Well you did say that with the filibuster they were all just playing by the rulebook they'd agreed to, so I thought it was a rulebook concern you had. I gotta say, you strike genuine fear into my heart with your Rush/Nuge example, but I'm still willing to go with it. The constitution gave no provisions for blocking due process in this manner. It's a loophole at best. It's also a loophole that this senate has used more than any other in history, not that I think that matters……….Make your case and let's vote on it, says I. Ban the filibuster
"We have met the enemy, and he is us."
Walt Kelly, via Slow's avatar. Look it up
User avatar
blackduckdog2
hunter
 
Posts: 6290
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:02 am

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby blackduckdog2 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:55 am

Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Like I told my 8th grade social studies teacher: the filibuster is cheating. And I don't care who's using it

they are hypocrites for opposing it now....

I think your partisan's showing a bit here, friend………. You're all upset about hypocrisy on the left because they once opposed what they now want to use, but you're blissfully ignoring the fact that the right has its panties all in a wad over because they now want to oppose what they once used.
"We have met the enemy, and he is us."
Walt Kelly, via Slow's avatar. Look it up
User avatar
blackduckdog2
hunter
 
Posts: 6290
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:02 am

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby blackduckdog2 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:58 am

beretta24 wrote:Historic levels? It took Bush longer to get appointees confirmed than Obama. Not to mention a simple majority was viewed as inherently destructive to a republic. Watch them stack the appellate courts with liberals and effectively block challenges from reaching the SCOTUS.

Yes….Historic levels of obstructionism via the filibuster. And if the founders had wanted the entire governmental process to be determined by super-majority, why didn't they write it that way? The constitution gives NO provision for the filibuster; it's a stupid exploitation of a loophole that should be forever banned
"We have met the enemy, and he is us."
Walt Kelly, via Slow's avatar. Look it up
User avatar
blackduckdog2
hunter
 
Posts: 6290
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:02 am

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby Me and Black Betty » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:56 am

Are you really going to use the Constitution as a defense? Seems a bit ironic, even hypocritical. While we are on the topic of what is in the Constitution and what is not, maybe you could point me to some text that shows where the Federal government has the authority to mandate health insurance. While you are at, try to find something defining the obligation to provide healthcare to those who cannot afford/obtain it via Medicare/cade.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
Whoa, Black Betty BAM-BA-LAM
User avatar
Me and Black Betty
hunter
 
Posts: 981
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:51 am
Location: Eastern CT

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby beretta24 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:33 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
beretta24 wrote:Historic levels? It took Bush longer to get appointees confirmed than Obama. Not to mention a simple majority was viewed as inherently destructive to a republic. Watch them stack the appellate courts with liberals and effectively block challenges from reaching the SCOTUS.

Yes….Historic levels of obstructionism via the filibuster. And if the founders had wanted the entire governmental process to be determined by super-majority, why didn't they write it that way? The constitution gives NO provision for the filibuster; it's a stupid exploitation of a loophole that should be forever banned

The constitution also didn't establish the current judicial system, nor the precise means used these days for appointing members to the courts.
User avatar
beretta24
State Moderator
 
Posts: 5996
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:54 pm
Location: MN

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby vincentpa » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:35 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
beretta24 wrote:Who needs a senate and a congress when you can just have a simple majority make decisions for the country. WE. ARE. F*****.

You think the founding fathers were all about the filibuster? Maybe if the republicans hadn't abused it to historic levels this wouldn't have happened


It's funny how liberals (not yourself as you explain later) bemoan the filibuster when they are the ones that started this whole mess of abuse during the Bush Administration. Now they are shocked, shocked, I tell you that the Republicans are doing the same thing to them only a bit worse. What crap! Most liberals are complete hypocrites on this topic. These chickens are going to come home to roost. The liberals will rue the day they ended this rule.

The filibuster is a means to protect the minority from a tyranny of the majority, i.e. it protects minority rights. It's not in the Constitution but was added soon after as a necessary protection. The filibuster is a measure of intensity. If a law or movement has intensity, it will pass. If not, the whim of the majority will be stymied. Remember, our government is not meant to function quickly and smoothly. It is full of rules and laws that prevent rapid change. The Founders understood populism was dangerous.
In a free society, it is not the obligation of the citizen to prove to the government that he is a good person. It is the obligation of the government to prove to the rest of the citizenry that the citizen is a bad person, with probable cause.
User avatar
vincentpa
hunter
 
Posts: 7726
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:50 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby Andy W » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:18 am

cartervj wrote:Obama, Biden and many other Dems despised the idea back in 2005

And they'll despise it again when the Reps are in control.
Andy W
hunter
 
Posts: 614
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:30 am
Location: KY

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:33 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
beretta24 wrote:Who needs a senate and a congress when you can just have a simple majority make decisions for the country. WE. ARE. F*****.

You think the founding fathers were all about the filibuster? Maybe if the republicans hadn't abused it to historic levels this wouldn't have happened

YES. That is why it requires such large super majorities to change the Constitution.

YES. That is why the Senate represented the state legislatures and not the people. That was the most destructive change in the Constitution.

YES. They deplored a simple majority democracy. That is why the put forth so many checks against it.

blackduckdog2 wrote:Like I told my 8th grade social studies teacher: the filibuster is cheating. And I don't care who's using it

If the Senate were still appointees representing the state legislatures, I would be fine if it were not the rule. However, once that critical check against the Federal government was removed, the filibuster is an imperfect replacement.

Stability is also critical. With the filibuster, normally it makes all laws passed bipartisan, even if just tacitly so. Is there any reason that Obamacare should be repealed in the same way it was passed, we zero Democrat support and every "cheat" they can use? And then we end up with ping pong and all the instability leads to inefficiency and the lower incomes and less investment, less technological development, ... than otherwise would have existed and the needless suffering that comes with it.

This is why I would like all laws to require months from writing the final version until the votes are cast. Anything else is cheating and we see what that can give us, while good law is good law and it stands the test of time. Obamacare couldn't stand the test of time when passed and they knew it. Good law can stand the test of a filibuster, which is the next best thing. That's why I never want the Republicans to have a filibuster proof majority either. It's just naive to think it would be a good thing. Both parties are so bad that one party rule is a disaster. Just ask the 10's of millions likely to lose the health care they wanted because Obama didn't like it.
A politician thinks of the next election; a statesman of the next generation. A politician looks for the success of his party; a statesman for that of the country. The statesman wished to steer, while the politician was satisfied to drift.
User avatar
SpinnerMan
hunter
 
Posts: 16220
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:24 am
Location: Joliet, IL

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby assateague » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:00 am

Me and Black Betty wrote:Are you really going to use the Constitution as a defense? Seems a bit ironic, even hypocritical. While we are on the topic of what is in the Constitution and what is not, maybe you could point me to some text that shows where the Federal government has the authority to mandate health insurance. While you are at, try to find something defining the obligation to provide healthcare to those who cannot afford/obtain it via Medicare/cade.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk



x2
WOLVERINES

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Let a man vote to give himself a fish and he eats until society collapses.
User avatar
assateague
Emu hunter extraordinaire
 
Posts: 21277
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:25 pm
Location: Eastern Shore, People's Republic of Maryland

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby Indaswamp » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:05 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Like I told my 8th grade social studies teacher: the filibuster is cheating. And I don't care who's using it

they are hypocrites for opposing it now....

I think your partisan's showing a bit here, friend………. You're all upset about hypocrisy on the left because they once opposed what they now want to use, but you're blissfully ignoring the fact that the right has its panties all in a wad over because they now want to oppose what they once used.

hypocrisy is rampant on both sides...but in this case, it just happens to be the democrats.
The Cajun 7 Course Meal; 1 lb. of boudin and a six pack of Abita beer.

Save the Marsh, Eat a Nutria!

Never fart in your waders, it'll give you WORTS.
User avatar
Indaswamp
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 57636
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:40 pm
Location: South Louisiana

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby Gunnysway » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:18 am

http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa10.htm

Federalist #10 Summary...

In Federalist #10, James Madison argues that the greatest vice of popular government is its vulnerability to problems caused by factions, special interest groups who, in supporting their own interests, occasionally undermine the rights of other citizens or the good of the whole. People are diverse by nature, possessing different opinions, abilities, and resources. Because of this, they generally have different interests at heart, interests which they will support, often at the expense of other groups, if they are given the freedom to do so. Thus, human nature is prone towards faction.

There are two ways, Madison argues, to eliminate this problem. First, the causes of faction may be eliminated, or second, its effects may be controlled. There are two ways of eliminating the causes of faction: Liberty, which allows factions to form, may be eliminated, or people may be given identical interests, passions, and opinions. The first solution is foolish and unacceptable, as it would be worse than the initial problem. The second, because of the diversity of human nature, is completely impossible.

Since the causes of faction are impossible to remove, the only solution to the problems caused by faction is in controlling its effects. In a pure democracy, a minority faction poses little threat because it can be easily outvoted and suppressed. A majority faction, however, through popular vote, has the power to completely control the government. Therefore, modifications must be made to democratic government to keep the majority from oppressing minority groups or acting against the good of the nation.

A republic, the modified form of popular government proposed by the creators of the Constitution, could preserve popular government while allowing a measure of consideration for the rights of the minority. A republican government is run by representatives chosen by the people, rather than by the people themselves. Representatives, if wise and just, are more likely to vote with the interests of the people, rather than their own selfish passions. If a man is not allowed to judge himself in court, asks Madison, why should he be allowed to directly make judgments in the legislature? In both cases, he is both a party and an advocate in the decision, and would thus be too biased to make just decisions. When people are allowed to make their own laws, they will most likely have self-interest, rather than the public good at heart, and thus the majority will oppress the minority whenever it is to their advantage.

The argument could be made, however, that the United States is too large a country to be fairly run by one supreme, centralized government. Madison counters this argument by stating that a larger republic will consist of a greater variety of parties, so that one will less likely be able to suppress the others. Also, in a larger republic, a greater number of votes would be required to elect each representative. This is preferable because it ensures that politicians cannot use underhanded tricks to secure positions as easily as they could if elected by a smaller body of voters, thus increasing the likelihood that only the best candidates will be elected.

Finally, it is stated that while the leaders of extreme factions may be able to have an effect within their own state, it is unlikely that this effect would spread to other states. Thus, a nation ruled by a national government, rather than individual state governments, is ideal, as it prevents the extreme views of a few from affecting the lives of the whole.

In conclusion, James Madison believed that people are by nature diverse and self-interested, and thus every society forms factions, or groups of people with special interests that sometimes harm other citizens or the good of the whole. The Articles of Confederation did not effectively control and reduce the negative effects of factions on the nation, and thus a new government was necessary. The government laid out in the Constitution was ideal because it was a republic, a representative government that would prevent self-interested passions from holding too much sway over the government. It was also large, containing representatives from every state and many different interest groups, making it difficult for one group to dominate and suppress the others. Representatives would be elected by a large body of people, helping to ensure that only the most worthy would hold office. Finally, laws were passed by the whole nation, making it difficult for problems in one state to infiltrate and affect others. Under one centralized representative government, a diverse nation could thrive, ruled by the majority, but with a fair amount of consideration for all.
Setting up meetings between geese and God since 1992...

Gud till ära, oss till gagn...
User avatar
Gunnysway
hunter
 
Posts: 3129
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 11:46 am
Location: Somewhere between Heaven and Hell

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:39 am

Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Like I told my 8th grade social studies teacher: the filibuster is cheating. And I don't care who's using it

they are hypocrites for opposing it now....

I think your partisan's showing a bit here, friend………. You're all upset about hypocrisy on the left because they once opposed what they now want to use, but you're blissfully ignoring the fact that the right has its panties all in a wad over because they now want to oppose what they once used.

hypocrisy is rampant on both sides...but in this case, it just happens to be the democrats.

Politicians, being hypocrites. Say it isn't so. I mean, I believe that the liberals actually think their beloved politicians are not hypocrites, liars, cheats, and generally just douche bags (aka politicians), but everybody with a brain knows that those are the qualities of a large fraction of the people that seek political office especially at a young age with no indication of exceptional performance in their chosen profession because telling other people what to do and forcing them to do so IS their chosen profession. And we all know that type of person. They are always the do as I say, not as I do hypocrite types that in their own mind never make mistakes but are quick with the excuses and blame.
A politician thinks of the next election; a statesman of the next generation. A politician looks for the success of his party; a statesman for that of the country. The statesman wished to steer, while the politician was satisfied to drift.
User avatar
SpinnerMan
hunter
 
Posts: 16220
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:24 am
Location: Joliet, IL

Re: And the senate shoots a hole through the Republic

Postby ScaupHunter » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:32 am

Guys, I have to say I am rolling around laugh on the floor right now. Not at anyone here mind you. At our nation as a whole. I have said it repeatedly and will say it again now. We are in the 5th phase of a society. We are dying. Economically, morally, physically, etc...... I feel sorry for my girls and the future they will live. The grandkids will not live in a free society.

I look at my grandfathers and their lives and the sacrifices they made. I look at my parents and their sacrifices and the quality of lives they lead. Then I look at modern society and get grim amusement from what their lives and futures will be. The money has run out. We are further in debt than we can realistically climb out of. People are getting pissed and dividing up with both side spouting a lot of rhetoric. When things really hit the fan people are going to be pissed and scared and blaming everyone else. That gentlemen is how revolutions and wars begin.

History is a mean mistress, she is meaner to idiots who repeat the same mistakes. We are repeating all of the same mistakes in the same old ways.
Bella's
Decoy Setting Pro Staff
Boat Operator Pro Staff
Duck Shooting Pro Staff
Warm Towel Pro Staff
Snack Supply Pro Staff

He works for free! Who's the B now?
User avatar
ScaupHunter
hunter
 
Posts: 6662
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:57 am

Next

Return to Controversial Issues Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests