Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

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Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby Minneguy » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:31 pm

Hey all! I am studying for finals, and in order to get some practice with dimensional analysis I am calculating lead distance to shoot at ducks flying. If you'd like me to calculate anything I would really like the practice. So far I have calculated the lead distances on wood ducks flyig 30 mph parallel to the shooter as well as at a 30 and 45 degree intersection. I will calculate any species of critter if you'd like and I am planning on creating a chart which I will upload. Just upload the velocity of the shell that you use and a scenario and I will see if I can calculate it out. I am really quite bad at chemistry related math but for some reason calculating stuff with hunting is way easier lol.

Some things to consider, after I calculate the theoretical lead average it takes to have the shot go say 30 yards at 1350 Fps (.0666 seconds which means that a woodie will travel approximately 2.93 feet) , I am going to do all the basic calculations first then I will try to figure in ballistic stuff like the drop distance of the shot, and kinetic energy, the momentum and the speed the shot has decelerated to so I can figure out the actual lead required.
An interesting thing to note, I had a great discussion about aerodynamics with my chem teacher, it turns out blind side may be more aerodynamic than round steel shot due to drag. (If it doesn't tumble) and black cloud is anti science , because the way it is shaped it should fly very erratically. Kinda a cool chem lecture gone off the tracks haha


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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby Minneguy » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:46 pm

Also keep in mind this is not exact science....
Also, this doesn't account for reaction time, wind humidity, air pressure temperature, etc. just a redneck Doing some math haha


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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby possumfoot » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:47 pm

you forget that velocity begains to deminish the moment the wad leaves the barrel..
here is one.. mallard.. flying se at 30mph with a 9 mph west wind.. bird is flying 7/8 away 30(yards) high, 25 out..

use a clock for referance.. bird is center.. what time do you aim and distance of lead..

muzzle velocity is 1500
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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby Minneguy » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:06 pm

Oh and this is by no means super accurate, I am using data collected from the internet , averages of speeds for the duck, as well as averages of velocity for the pellets at yardages sources from the interwebs. I think it will be good for comparative purposes, but not much else. Considering that these numbers may very well be extremely skewed depending on the accuracy of the data I am using.


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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby The Pas Swamp Donkey » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:46 pm

Read this and you will learn a lot about calculating lead. I subtend the angles based on widths of the sight picture and lead.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=f4Qoq8P ... s'&f=false
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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby Minneguy » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:13 am

Haha possum that's a good one, theres a lot of math to that problem I have to work out. I'll get on it and see how I do! Ido all my calculations based on recorded shot speed from a chart I found online, and use a rigged average since it isn't linear, but does follow a close to linear path it ill it gets past a certain distance.



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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby ducks~n~bucks » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:16 am

Canvasback, 50 mph, 40 yards out, 10 yards high, flying parallel to the hunter, with a shell velocity of 1400 fps.
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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby SpinnerMan » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:08 am

Welcome to nerddom.

I'll see how your results compare to my spreadsheet that I created when I was bored.

I also calculated the lead in body lengths. You know shoot 1 goose length or 2 goose lengths ahead. That might be good to add. Leading a goose or a wood duck at the same distance and speed is the same in feet, but a lot difference relative to their size.

I did surface plots for distance versus speed for straight crossing shots.

I forget how I did the deceleration. I had some data from a link and I think I did a curve fit.

Anybody have any data on the impact of wind speed.

A mallard crossing at 40 yards with a ground speed of 30 mph and a 10 mph tail wind is going to be different than with a 10 mph head wind, but I have no clue how much.

We had mallards coming in crossing to a 25 mph head wind and most wanted to land at about 40 and we shot like crap. I really think we weren't account for the wind. The birds just looked like they were going very slow and almost hanging, but the wind was pushing the shot behind them. I got at least my 4 plus a black but it took an embarrassing number of shells and the three of us only ended with 9 ducks and a huge number of empties.

Minneguy wrote:black cloud is anti science , because the way it is shaped it should fly very erratically.

I don't know the science, but initially, the pellets are all interacting and none are flying through clean area and most are in the draft of the pellets in front of them. They quickly spread out and probably are in clean air for most of the flight. Given that they are symmetric, they would still fly on average straight. Interesting question on how far from straight would they vary if they were in the worst possible orientation. If they rotate, would that negate this effect? They may be pro science, but not the simple single pellet ballistics. Steel shot does not fly like a knuckleball or does it? Throw a knuckleball too fast and it's called a homerun. Throw it just right and it's a real bitch to even catch. Don't forget the black cloud wad is supposed to hold the shot together longer. To say the reality of the physics is complicated is a huge understatement.

BTW, I'd be a bit skeptical of a chemistry teachers thoughts on aerodynamics. It's like taking advice from a nuclear engineer on it.
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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby The Pas Swamp Donkey » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:34 am

Again, rather than concentrating on distance, the better way is to develop a unit lead , based on sight or barrel width . There is a very good chapter in this book, which you can actually read online. Chapter 6 deals with everything you need to know about leading a bird.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=f4Qoq8P ... s'&f=false

When I was growing up, we did a lot of pass shooting. My brother's advice was to keep doubling your lead until something falls out of the sky. With bluebills , you would be trying to hit the lead bird in a flock and the fourth one back would fall out. Gives you something to think about . We had a high cliff we would shoot off of, so you would see your pattern splash in the water, and that really let you know how badly you were shooting. I am a bit better , and I have gone from a pull through method with lead shot, to a sustained lead with steel, and now back to a more British pull through method. Sometimes a combination of all 3. I do have a little cap camera, which allows me to video and figure out how I hit or miss the birds. It has a 61 degree FOV, so it is not a fishbowl like the go pros, so the range on the video is more realistic. The kill shot on the last bird is over 50 yds, probably closer to 55Image.
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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby The Pas Swamp Donkey » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:37 am

Canvasback, 50 mph, 40 yards out, 10 yards high, flying parallel to the hunter, with a shell velocity of 1400 fps.


You will need a good 10 foot lead on this bird.
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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby jehler » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:45 am

ducks~n~bucks wrote:Canvasback, 50 mph, 40 yards out, 10 yards high, flying parallel to the hunter, with a shell velocity of 1400 fps.

trick question, hunters don't fly
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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby The Pas Swamp Donkey » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:56 am

Image

says you
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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby OGblackcloud » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:11 pm

A split second to many variables . It might look good on paper but real life and time are the factors that count the most.
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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby SpinnerMan » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:28 pm

OGblackcloud wrote:A split second to many variables . It might look good on paper but real life and time are the factors that count the most.

Of course, but this is a fun nerd exercise. Doesn't everybody do recreational math? :huh:
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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby OGblackcloud » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:42 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
OGblackcloud wrote:A split second to many variables . It might look good on paper but real life and time are the factors that count the most.

Of course, but this is a fun nerd exercise. Doesn't everybody do recreational math? :huh:

Only if it involves money ! I like to count money, lots of it
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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby SpinnerMan » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:52 pm

OGblackcloud wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
OGblackcloud wrote:A split second to many variables . It might look good on paper but real life and time are the factors that count the most.

Of course, but this is a fun nerd exercise. Doesn't everybody do recreational math? :huh:

Only if it involves money ! I like to count money, lots of it

Me too, but where do I find lots of it to count? :huh:

You mind sharing?
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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby Minneguy » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:40 pm

ducks~n~bucks wrote:Canvasback, 50 mph, 40 yards out, 10 yards high, flying parallel to the hunter, with a shell velocity of 1400 fps.

Ducks-n-bucks it is going to require approximately an 10.98 foot lead using a muzzle velocity of 1400 and a velocity at 40 yards of 546 Fps. ( I found a calculation for it online) it may be off I dunno. That is a fast moving bird ! I hear there are some ducks out east that require even more! That's nuts!



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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby Minneguy » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:48 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:Welcome to nerddom.

I'll see how your results compare to my spreadsheet that I created when I was bored.

I also calculated the lead in body lengths. You know shoot 1 goose length or 2 goose lengths ahead. That might be good to add. Leading a goose or a wood duck at the same distance and speed is the same in feet, but a lot difference relative to their size.

I did surface plots for distance versus speed for straight crossing shots.

I forget how I did the deceleration. I had some data from a link and I think I did a curve fit.

Anybody have any data on the impact of wind speed.

A mallard crossing at 40 yards with a ground speed of 30 mph and a 10 mph tail wind is going to be different than with a 10 mph head wind, but I have no clue how much.

We had mallards coming in crossing to a 25 mph head wind and most wanted to land at about 40 and we shot like crap. I really think we weren't account for the wind. The birds just looked like they were going very slow and almost hanging, but the wind was pushing the shot behind them. I got at least my 4 plus a black but it took an embarrassing number of shells and the three of us only ended with 9 ducks and a huge number of empties.

Minneguy wrote:black cloud is anti science , because the way it is shaped it should fly very erratically.

I don't know the science, but initially, the pellets are all interacting and none are flying through clean area and most are in the draft of the pellets in front of them. They quickly spread out and probably are in clean air for most of the flight. Given that they are symmetric, they would still fly on average straight. Interesting question on how far from straight would they vary if they were in the worst possible orientation. If they rotate, would that negate this effect? They may be pro science, but not the simple single pellet ballistics. Steel shot does not fly like a knuckleball or does it? Throw a knuckleball too fast and it's called a homerun. Throw it just right and it's a real bitch to even catch. Don't forget the black cloud wad is supposed to hold the shot together longer. To say the reality of the physics is complicated is a huge understatement.

BTW, I'd be a bit skeptical of a chemistry teachers thoughts on aerodynamics. It's like taking advice from a nuclear engineer on it.

Ok based off my calculations, without wind it's roughly 5.5 feet of lead with 2 shot at 1500 Fps.
With the tail wind of 10 mph, the lead is going to be almost the same because the wind is acting on both the shot and the bird, but I found that there is a range. If the bird is flying constant, and the wind only acts on the shot it will take 4.8 feet of lead. If the shot is constant and the bird is acted on by the wind, it will be 6.2 feet. That was tough and I'm almost certain I am incorrect but who knows haha


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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby Minneguy » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:05 pm

I found this interesting, using trigonometry and (sohcatoa) I was able to deeming that the lead required going away or coming at 30 degrees would cut the lead in half. No wonder I can hit angle flying woodies when I'm pass shooting..... Never mind those long crossers haha


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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby Maxgold » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:18 pm

I feel like just reading this thread is going to hurt my shooting. Too much thinking when shooting is my doom!

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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby OGblackcloud » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:23 pm

Maxgold wrote:I feel like just reading this thread is going to hurt my shooting. Too much thinking when shooting is my doom!

:fingerhead:

That's right . You must become one with the gun and its easy peasy
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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby ducks~n~bucks » Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:42 am

Minneguy wrote:
ducks~n~bucks wrote:Canvasback, 50 mph, 40 yards out, 10 yards high, flying parallel to the hunter, with a shell velocity of 1400 fps.

Ducks-n-bucks it is going to require approximately an 10.98 foot lead using a muzzle velocity of 1400 and a velocity at 40 yards of 546 Fps. ( I found a calculation for it online) it may be off I dunno. That is a fast moving bird ! I hear there are some ducks out east that require even more! That's nuts!



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Yeah it is nuts! Canvasbacks top out at about 70 mph, and the fastest north American duck was a red breasted merganser at 100mph. Crazy!
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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby Minneguy » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:27 am

100 mph? Well shoot good thing I don't want to eat mergansers haha.
70 mph is also nuts. I don't think my eyeballs can realize there is a bird coming at that speed


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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby Minneguy » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:30 am

Mangold I know what ya mean. I overthink it a lot of the times. This is just a fun exercise to help prepare for finals.


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Re: Calculating lead distance at various speeds and distance

Postby Minneguy » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:31 am

Ogblackcloud I like that zen mindset haha. It took me many boxes of clays and shells to figure out that I shoot better when I just plain shoot.


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