Report from the Trainer

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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby labsforme » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:13 am

People train with E-Collars and FF because over all it works well and more dogs are in advanced levels because of it. Training methods before collars was in some parts Draconian so non e-collar does not mean easy on the dog. To be effective the dog has to be taught first then if needed reinforced with the collar. Some dogs shut down no matter what method you use. Being consistent in what is required will work through most of it. To the OP keep working with the trainer. Sounds like the dog is using the " don't beat me" ruse to get out of what she doesn't want to do. Hard pressure is not what this dog needs. Making sure she understands that yielding to commands will bring good results. FF is a process that at times is not pretty but will get you a good reliable, good hunting companion in the end.

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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Rutin » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:58 am

TNDUCK34 wrote:At what point do you lose the gametotally and lose the dog. Can that happen and how fast? Is it just trial and error? What are the signs they are not playing you? Then what do you do? Can you get them back or is it a lost cause?

Yes it CAN happen and depending on the dog.... faster than you care to think. Trial and error.... NO WAY! That's the quickest way to confuse and burn a dog out. By no means was I advanced in my training game when I started and by no means am I anywhere close to some of the fellows on here. BUT.... if your willing to learn and train yourself with good videos/books/people you will have a better dog as an outcome.
For instance I've trained 3 upland dogs, and Sarge (avatar pic) is my first "duck dog". So I studied books, videos, asked questions, became a sponge.... eyes open, mouth shut! Didn't feel confident finishing a completed FF program by myself so I sent him to a trainer for 3 months (hardest but best decision I made). Now.... take all the stuff I learned from books, internet, video programs, ect and it doesn't amount to CRAP when you go to a GOOD trainer. So your training 1 dog, he's trained 100's, maybe thousands therefore he's seen it all! Every dog reacts different and cant be molded the exact same. CC is great and has improved the game ten fold but sometimes you have to know an old school trainer whose not afraid to get his hands dirty to teach lessons.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby dudejcb » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:47 am

Dakota Creek wrote:
dudejcb wrote:Get rid of the electronic collar control and use only the collar! ....... The best trainers will verify this: e-collars are an over used crutch for poor trainers.


Really???? Your experience in training dogs particularly through FF is???? And how pray tell do you work through FF in going from ear pinch / toe pinch to working to finish FF (with the collar, force to the pile, etc) if you do not use the complete collar with both transmitter and receiver?

I've trained all my dogs myself without an e-collar. I don't usually even have to use an ear pinch for FF and don't usually have to do FF as my dogs always want to fetch. If they don't, the training session is over and they go back to the kennel. That's what happens when they stay in the kennel, generally having no fun, and then you take them out for training "fun;" they are enthusiastic. If you put the collar on the dog before each training session (and don't use it until after they know what's expected and only need a slight correction), they come to associate the collar with fun. Once they know what to do and you use the collar for mild correction, it's a different story.

I understand how e-collars are supposed, and will stand by what Mike Lardy has to say about using them...correctly. My brother raises and runs FT dogs with Candlewood Kennels and Lardy has trained and run them all. I've visited his place and spent time talking with him and his trainers. He advocates e-collar conditioning and restraint.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby labsforme » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:31 pm

"I understand how e-collars are supposed, and will stand by what Mike Lardy has to say about using them...correctly. My brother raises and runs FT dogs with Candlewood Kennels and Lardy has trained and run them all. I've visited his place and spent time talking with him and his trainers. He advocates e-collar conditioning and restraint."
Just to get a clearer understanding of what you mean-so Mike Lardy doesn't FF or advocate using a collar to train with, just to wear? Kinda goes against the FF and Collar Conditioning training videos he sells. Who is your brother? Here out west or in Mn or Wi? I have been around trials for a while now. Lardy is one of the best trial trainers but doesn't run many dogs himself any more. Just curious since you name dropped.

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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby gonehuntin' » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:37 pm

dudejcb wrote:

I understand how e-collars are supposed, and will stand by what Mike Lardy has to say about using them...correctly. My brother raises and runs FT dogs with Candlewood Kennels and Lardy has trained and run them all. I've visited his place and spent time talking with him and his trainers. He advocates e-collar conditioning and restraint.


You must be like the Lone Ranger in Idaho; hardly any one out there that doesn't run ecollars on their dogs.

Do you compete with your dogs?
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Dakota Creek » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:47 pm

dudejcb wrote:I've trained all my dogs myself without an e-collar. I don't usually even have to use an ear pinch for FF and don't usually have to do FF as my dogs always want to fetch.


I know several people who train to an extremely high standard - multiple GMHRCH titled dogs that also hunt like crazy, so I am not saying that FF can't be done without a collar.

FF is not strictly about having a dog that "always wants to fetch". The FF process is taught to teach a dog how to turn pressure off ... whether that pressure is a verbal correction "NO", a physical correction (ear pinch / toe pinch) or e-collar stimulation. Having the dog fetch on command is not FF .... that is simply telling the dog to fetch and the dog is complying. You need to add some sort of pressure to the exercise so the dog realizes that if it complies the "pressure" is turned off.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby dudejcb » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:09 pm

labsforme wrote:"I understand how e-collars are supposed, and will stand by what Mike Lardy has to say about using them...correctly. My brother raises and runs FT dogs with Candlewood Kennels and Lardy has trained and run them all. I've visited his place and spent time talking with him and his trainers. He advocates e-collar conditioning and restraint."
Just to get a clearer understanding of what you mean-so Mike Lardy doesn't FF or advocate using a collar to train with, just to wear? Kinda goes against the FF and Collar Conditioning training videos he sells. Who is your brother? Here out west or in Mn or Wi? I have been around trials for a while now. Lardy is one of the best trial trainers but doesn't run many dogs himself any more. Just curious since you name dropped.

Jeff G

Lardy trains with e-collars and advocates using them ... correctly. That was my point: I'm not sure the trainer in question is using the collar correctly and could easily be doing more harm than good.

On young dogs (those not ready for, or suited to, pressure) he puts the collar on only to get them conditioned to it for the future, but does not use the controls, as it's not yet appropriate to do so. Most of the dogs get excited when the collar goes on cuz they know they're going to work.

That brother is in Wisconsin, and since I'm name dropping he partners with Mary Howley. I've gotten two dogs from Mary and am about to get another ... probably my last dog.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Rutin » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:13 pm

[/quote]
Lardy trains with e-collars and advocates using them ... correctly. That was my point: I'm not sure the trainer in question is using the collar correctly and could easily be doing more harm than good.

On young dogs (those not ready for, or suited to, pressure) he puts the collar on only to get them conditioned to it for the future, but does not use the controls, as it's not yet appropriate to do so. Most of the dogs get excited when the collar goes on cuz they know they're going to work.

That brother is in Wisconsin, and since I'm name dropping he partners with Mary Howley. I've gotten two dogs from Mary and am about to get another ... probably my last dog.[/quote]

^ Now that's one person I would love to get a pup from!
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby dudejcb » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:24 pm

Dakota Creek wrote:I know several people who train to an extremely high standard - multiple GMHRCH titled dogs that also hunt like crazy, so I am not saying that FF can't be done without a collar.

FF is not strictly about having a dog that "always wants to fetch". The FF process is taught to teach a dog how to turn pressure off ... whether that pressure is a verbal correction "NO", a physical correction (ear pinch / toe pinch) or e-collar stimulation. Having the dog fetch on command is not FF .... that is simply telling the dog to fetch and the dog is complying. You need to add some sort of pressure to the exercise so the dog realizes that if it complies the "pressure" is turned off.

Yes, I understand the a lot of people like to over train their hunting dogs for some reason rather than try to develop their natural instincts and native intelligence. Not sure why that is other than a "control" thing. It's true that over-trained trial dogs hunt like crazy, but for me it's a lot of added effort for no real gain in most hunting situations.

I also know that FF is about more than fetching and holding, and is a negative incentive, which flies in the face of simply showing the dog what pleases you and what doesn't the old fashioned way. I suppose if I were a trainer and had multiple dogs to work with and needed to get them all to trial standards I'd go with an e-collar. But I'm not a professional trainer and all of my dogs have been excellent hunting dogs nonetheless.

Milner has a good discussion of FF and agrees with my approach to hunting dog training. http://fetchpup.com/training/forcefetch.php
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Dakota Creek » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:47 pm

dudejcb wrote:Yes, I understand the a lot of people like to over train their hunting dogs for some reason rather than try to develop their natural instincts and native intelligence. Not sure why that is other than a "control" thing. It's true that over-trained trial dogs hunt like crazy, but for me it's a lot of added effort for no real gain in most hunting situations.


My comment was made to show the point that high levels of training can be achieved without use of the e-collar ..... Over-train??? A control thing???? A dog that that has achieved a GMHRCH title (that is 1,000 pts achieved running Master level tests) that has been "Amish" trained (no e-collar) is a tremendous feat. This shows the fact that the owner of that dog has a hunting dog that can do multiple marks, land and water blinds, can trail and will sit to the flush while hunting upland and will patiently sit quietly in a blind ... And you call that over-training?
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby dudejcb » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:10 pm

rutin wrote:
dudejcb wrote: ... Mary Howley. I've gotten two dogs from Mary and am about to get another ... probably my last dog.


^ Now that's one person I would love to get a pup from!

If you can scrape together the money, do it. You won't be disappointed, but they do have a lot of get up and go and training them requires some patience at times.

A few years back, when Gunner was still alive but getting on in years, a fellow in town heard from others that I had a pretty good dog and approached me about breeding him to his female chocolate. I figured, why not? Gunner was getting on in years so I thought it would be a chance to give my son pick of the litter. Mac (the puppy I gave to my son) retained all the Candlewood characteristics, is a fantastic hunter, and is fun to be around and watch work ... but he's now 8 so only a few years left. Time to begin prepping a new duck dog (I have a short hair for grouse, pheasant, chukar) so am saving up for another Candlewood puppy. Will be calling Mary soon.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby labsforme » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:44 pm

CC is not burning a dog into submission.FF adds to the desire to retrieve by making it a command not a request.None of us have the whole picture of what the OP's trainer knows or doesn't know.We're not there and seeing what is happening.I do not advocate someone to use a collar just because they know how to push buttons.I use attrition most of the time. I too have talked to Mary Howley in the past.You have some nice dogs. I have a Lottie granddaughter laying down in front of me. Even Milner uses negative reenforcement at times to get what he can out of training.
To those that want a Candlewood pup call Mary and let her know what you are looking for and then listen to what she has to say.
As an aside I used to run,train, and breed GSP.Had all age and open gun dogs.That's why I got my first lab in 82.

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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:38 pm

dudejcb wrote:Yes, I understand the a lot of people like to over train their hunting dogs for some reason rather than try to develop their natural instincts and native intelligence. Not sure why that is other than a "control" thing. It's true that over-trained trial dogs hunt like crazy, but for me it's a lot of added effort for no real gain in most hunting situations....

....I also know that FF is about more than fetching and holding, and is a negative incentive, which flies in the face of simply showing the dog what pleases you and what doesn't the old fashioned way. I suppose if I were a trainer and had multiple dogs to


Dude - I see a lot of comments like this from people who seem reasonably grounded and happy with their 'excellent' gun dog. Excellent in any venue is a pretty subjective term however...BUT...you're happy and that's what counts. I also don't think we should forget tests versus trials - helluva big difference in terms of training and performance.

What bothers me is there always seems to be these comments (quoted) woven in which frankly tear down all the credibility (in my mind).

I don't believe that you believe - test or trial folks don't develop the natural instincts and native intelligence (whatever that is) in their dog. Nor do I believe you believe that training, performance and even mediocre (much less kinds complex tasks) get learned and performed with consistency (and correctly) because the dog wants to 'please you'. Receiving praise is desirable for a dog as is getting rewarded. That's different than 'pleasing you'.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Duck_Popper » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:11 pm

Just want to say thank you for all the positive feedback. Even though it veered off into a topic that has been debated more times than "what kind of dog should I get chessie or lab?" I was able to read each comment and pull something useful from them.

I can say what's done is done and I do not regret my decision. I trust this trainer, she ran her dogs at nationals last year, she is running them again this year, and she hasn't shown me that she does not know what she is doing. She also is helping me because she expects to see Teal st the HRC test in March. We both have a lot of work cut out for us, me more than her, but I am looking forward to it all. Like many of you have said, from someone who is a novice in dog training it may seem pretty ugly and difficult to watch your dog go through this process but there is an end goal.

I received a text from her tonight because she knows Teal is all I am really thinking about. Image

I will definitely be taking video of her next weekend for all of you. Regardless of a no, I will take it in the go pro and act as if it is a camera.

I will have pictures up shortly.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Dakota Creek » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:50 am

HNTFSH wrote:
dudejcb wrote:Yes, I understand the a lot of people like to over train their hunting dogs for some reason rather than try to develop their natural instincts and native intelligence. Not sure why that is other than a "control" thing. It's true that over-trained trial dogs hunt like crazy, but for me it's a lot of added effort for no real gain in most hunting situations....

....I also know that FF is about more than fetching and holding, and is a negative incentive, which flies in the face of simply showing the dog what pleases you and what doesn't the old fashioned way. I suppose if I were a trainer and had multiple dogs to


Dude - I see a lot of comments like this from people who seem reasonably grounded and happy with their 'excellent' gun dog. Excellent in any venue is a pretty subjective term however...BUT...you're happy and that's what counts. I also don't think we should forget tests versus trials - helluva big difference in terms of training and performance.

What bothers me is there always seems to be these comments (quoted) woven in which frankly tear down all the credibility (in my mind).

I don't believe that you believe - test or trial folks don't develop the natural instincts and native intelligence (whatever that is) in their dog. Nor do I believe you believe that training, performance and even mediocre (much less kinds complex tasks) get learned and performed with consistency (and correctly) because the dog wants to 'please you'. Receiving praise is desirable for a dog as is getting rewarded. That's different than 'pleasing you'.


Ding, ding, ding!! :thumbsup:

To the OP ... Sorry we veered!
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby gonehuntin' » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:51 am

HNTFSH wrote:
dudejcb wrote:Yes, I understand the a lot of people like to over train their hunting dogs for some reason rather than try to develop their natural instincts and native intelligence. Not sure why that is other than a "control" thing. It's true that over-trained trial dogs hunt like crazy, but for me it's a lot of added effort for no real gain in most hunting situations....

....I also know that FF is about more than fetching and holding, and is a negative incentive, which flies in the face of simply showing the dog what pleases you and what doesn't the old fashioned way. I suppose if I were a trainer and had multiple dogs to


Dude - I see a lot of comments like this from people who seem reasonably grounded and happy with their 'excellent' gun dog. Excellent in any venue is a pretty subjective term however...BUT...you're happy and that's what counts. I also don't think we should forget tests versus trials - helluva big difference in terms of training and performance.

What bothers me is there always seems to be these comments (quoted) woven in which frankly tear down all the credibility (in my mind).

I don't believe that you believe - test or trial folks don't develop the natural instincts and native intelligence (whatever that is) in their dog. Nor do I believe you believe that training, performance and even mediocre (much less kinds complex tasks) get learned and performed with consistency (and correctly) because the dog wants to 'please you'. Receiving praise is desirable for a dog as is getting rewarded. That's different than 'pleasing you'.


+1. Heck of a post. Dog isn't much of a dog without great natural ability, instinct, intelligence and desire. Seems like some less than knowledgable people believe these things can actually be instilled in a dog. They got it of they ain't. All we can do is either develop or stifle it.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby labsforme » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:21 am

Duckpopper, sent you a PM. I just noticed your from Sacto.
For the off topic portion. HNTFSH is right on in that even with advanced training for field trials you have to have a dog that has the natural abilities and desire to enhance. Training builds on what's there. In the judges book you have natural abilities marking, nose, drive, and style. Then there are the trained qualities steadiness, handling, retrieve to hand.

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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby dudejcb » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:53 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
dudejcb wrote:

I understand how e-collars are supposed, and will stand by what Mike Lardy has to say about using them...correctly. My brother raises and runs FT dogs with Candlewood Kennels and Lardy has trained and run them all. I've visited his place and spent time talking with him and his trainers. He advocates e-collar conditioning and restraint.


You must be like the Lone Ranger in Idaho; hardly any one out there that doesn't run ecollars on their dogs.

Do you compete with your dogs?

No, I just hunt the hell out of 'em...competing with the ducks & geese that need retrieving.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby TNDUCK34 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:55 am

HNTFSH wrote:
TNDUCK34 wrote:At what point do you lose the gametotally and lose the dog. Can that happen and how fast? Is it just trial and error? What are the signs they are not playing you? Then what do you do? Can you get them back or is it a lost cause?


Lotsa if's, and's and but's on that one.

Personally I'd sum it up to: you're not apt to lose them if you know what you're doing. If you don't - you're probably confusing them.

Stubborn often gets quickly mistaken as 'soft'.


Sorry for the over load of questions, i guess thats what came to mind when reading the thread. But even the expierenced have to start somewhere. I have some expierence with dogs. My current dog is the opposite of Teal, he is hard headed and strong willed. So experience with a soft dog, not so much experience. All of this for future reference I suppose...
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby dudejcb » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:12 am

HNTFSH wrote:
dudejcb wrote:Yes, I understand the a lot of people like to over train their hunting dogs for some reason rather than try to develop their natural instincts and native intelligence. Not sure why that is other than a "control" thing. It's true that over-trained trial dogs hunt like crazy, but for me it's a lot of added effort for no real gain in most hunting situations....

....I also know that FF is about more than fetching and holding, and is a negative incentive, which flies in the face of simply showing the dog what pleases you and what doesn't the old fashioned way. I suppose if I were a trainer and had multiple dogs to


Dude - I see a lot of comments like this from people who seem reasonably grounded and happy with their 'excellent' gun dog. Excellent in any venue is a pretty subjective term however...BUT...you're happy and that's what counts. I also don't think we should forget tests versus trials - helluva big difference in terms of training and performance.

What bothers me is there always seems to be these comments (quoted) woven in which frankly tear down all the credibility (in my mind).

I don't believe that you believe - test or trial folks don't develop the natural instincts and native intelligence (whatever that is) in their dog. Nor do I believe you believe that training, performance and even mediocre (much less kinds complex tasks) get learned and performed with consistency (and correctly) because the dog wants to 'please you'. Receiving praise is desirable for a dog as is getting rewarded. That's different than 'pleasing you'.
You're right. Perhaps I was too generalized in my wording, and there are certainly some natural instincts we don't want (like eating birds). That said, I do have experience with a couple of guys--whom I no longer hunt with--who used to burn the $hit out of their dogs constantly. It made me sick. I had those types in mind when I was typing.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby dudejcb » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:25 am

labsforme wrote:...As an aside I used to run,train, and breed GSP.Had all age and open gun dogs.That's why I got my first lab in 82.

Jeff G
I agree that GSP's are kinda different, but when it comes to chukar hunting in rough terrain they are amazing: half goat, half blood hound, and only 2 speeds--all or nothing. When I hunted chukar with my labs I'd kill 25 to 30 a year. When I started with the short hairs I began killing over 100 annually. Admittedly, some of that was because I went after chukar more often once I had the GSP, but the difference between the labs and the GSP's on chukar was amazing. Labs struggled to navigate big rock slides. The GSP's just glide through the rocks full tilt. Then when they find birds, they hold 'em on point till I'm able to climb to where she's waiting ... sometimes this took several minutes ... still on point.

Different breeds have their advantages and disadvantages.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Dakota Creek » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:32 am

dudejcb wrote:I do have experience with a couple of guys--whom I no longer hunt with--who used to burn the $hit out of their dogs constantly. It made me sick. I had those types in mind when I was typing.


And there is the problem .... people who do not use or know how to use the collar properly. Often people feel that the e-collar is the training tool that will fix all their training issues. The dog is usually not CC'd to the collar and when the stimulation starts, the dog is confused and the owner just continues to increase the pressure thinking the dog will figure it out and do the task being asked of them.

When the collar is introduced properly to the dog (and a new trainer if they have never trained with a collar before), the lowest stimulation level needed for the dog is found and then used correctly in training, it is a great training tool that more often than not, is used infrequently as most trainers use attrition first before looking for a collar correction.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:55 pm

dudejcb wrote:That said, I do have experience with a couple of guys--whom I no longer hunt with--who used to burn the $hit out of their dogs constantly. It made me sick. I had those types in mind when I was typing.


I hear ya - those guys are typically douchebags in general. on the flip side, I see more screaming, hitting, kicking and mental abuse of dogs that have not been trained and tested but are given high expectations to perform on mere 'Natural ability'. :-)
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:05 pm

duck popper good on you. Stay the course. Some things that seem problematic are often common. That's where it's easy to fail without proven help. They are all different. My current dog is mentally tough as nails but wails like a bitch on the slightest correction. The former dog seemed to shut off a bit but magically (and I mean everytime) came back the next day and did the task near flawless.

You just gotta learn the dog and they you.
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Report from the Trainer

Postby Duck_Popper » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:10 pm

HNTFSH wrote:duck popper good on you. Stay the course. Some things that seem problematic are often common. That's where it's easy to fail without proven help. They are all different. My current dog is mentally tough as nails but wails like a bitch on the slightest correction. The former dog seemed to shut off a bit but magically (and I mean everytime) came back the next day and did the task near flawless.

You just gotta learn the dog and they you.



That's the biggest thing she kept saying, she needs me out there because I need to learn my dog. I need to see and watch her movements and learn what they mean and create a language between us.
Duck Popper: Congrats man and guess you need to change your name to "Duck Poppa"

"I only want three things out of a shotgun. Boom,Boom,Boom!" _The Duck Commander
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