Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby Labs » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:18 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Labs wrote:So...for your Water Force, what are you teaching the dog then, if you only give a back nick back? You didn't force the dog on the water AT ALL, your just hoping that the FTP work translates over to the water....many times it doesn't.


That Is kind of a real jump in logic you've just made there pardner. The only difference in continuous and intermittent is that in the nick you're pressuring the dog then giving it a chance to respond. In continuous the dog can never beat the stimulation until it gets to the goal. Might not seem like it to you, but there's really quite a difference in the two. When or if you train with the upper intensities, say 5 or 6, continuous creates a tail tucked pig.


Labs wrote: And for the record, WF starts with low intensity and your work your way up to a visible sound/reaction from the dog. You may only go up to a high 2 or a mid 3...depends on the dog. Then you continue your way back DOWN. You don't take the intensity to the highest level of the collar.


Maybe you don't, but I sure as Hell do. I want that dog to be able to work through correction at any level. If you don't do that in conditioning, you won't be able to effectively do it later when a real problem in behavior or fundamentals surfaces. You are making a huge mistake by not MAKING a dog work to higher intensities so they can be used later if needed.

Labs wrote: To each their own, tho...I got two plenty happy dogs that actually liked FF, FTP, and WF, from what I could tell. Run blinds with the same style and intensity as going out for a mark....got no complaints about my results, and if your happy with how your dogs turn out, then that's good.... :wink:


If your dogs were happy all the while they were in force, you didn't do it correctly.



You follow your program, and I will follow mine...based on the titles earned, pretty sure I did everything correctly...just because you have sulky dogs during FF, doesn't mean I did it wrong because they didn't get a sulky attitude... :wink: Like I said...to each their own. If your happy with your results, and I am happy with mine, it doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong...

Using the "nick" on water force is not forcing your dog on the water. Your dog does not know that the "water" is what shuts "off" the pressure. Personally, I use nicks later on in training, after the foundation (FF, FTP, WF) is firmly in place. If the nick method works for you on WF, based on the program you follow, and your dog gives you the results you want, so be it...

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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby gonehuntin' » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:09 pm

Labs wrote:
Using the "nick" on water force is not forcing your dog on the water. Your dog does not know that the "water" is what shuts "off" the pressure. Personally, I use nicks later on in training, after the foundation (FF, FTP, WF) is firmly in place. If the nick method works for you on WF, based on the program you follow, and your dog gives you the results you want, so be it...

More than one way to skin a cat regards -


Try and use some common sense here and don't merely parrot what you've heard. Explain to me without bragging about your titles how continuous is any different than Bach-nick-back-nick-back until the dog goes in the water. In either case the dog knows darn well that it's his compliance with the command that shuts off the stimulation.

Good dog trainers think and use common sense, they don't simply do what they've been shown without giving it some thought and using a little logic.
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby Labs » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:22 am

Ok...here it is gone...a little common sense, I will make it real simple for ya. Would you agree that with FF, the ear pinch is continuous pressure that the dog must turn off by getting the bumper in its mouth? Then, when you transition over to the collar, the pressure needs to be continuous, until the dog gets the bumper in its mouth...you know, to shut off the pressure by getting the bumper in its mouth...pretty standard stuff. If you use a "nick" at this point, you are not conditioning the dog...

When moving to water force (not water fetch, as you stated earlier, not quite sure what you meant there), you have a dog is conditioned to shut off the pressure when it gets the bumper in its mouth. This is where we condition the dog that the water shuts off the pressure, not the bumper...well, why the hell do we do this? It's not as simple as just nicking a dog to go across water to pick up a mark or a blind. Hell, most FF dogs that have been FTP will do that....you condition the dog that water shuts off pressure...water = good...just like bumper = good. You can't accomplish this with a nick...by using the nick at this point, you are only telling the dog to get the bumper in its mouth. While that may be well and good, but it makes swim-by training that much harder....a nick during swim-by means take more water...if you haven't conditioned the dog to this through WF, it makes swim-by much more difficult...down the shore blinds are harder too, because the dog hasn't been conditioned to stay in the water. Corrections (nick) around water, tell the dog to take more water after it has been properly conditioned to do so...
If a guy isn't running tests, where down the shore blinds are not required, you can probably get away with not doing water force...because using a nick during water force is not forcing the dog on water, however, we all see threads about dogs shutting down on water, or they experience "no goes" on water...that's because the water force conditioning was not put into the dog...

I'm not going to address your thinly veiled personal attacks...as there are rules against that... :fingerpt:
Last edited by Labs on Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby Duckdon » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:39 am

Labs wrote:Sooo...I'm hearing a lot of mixed messages here on momentary or continuous for FF, and the answer lies within the EAR PINCH when teaching FF. Do you guys just pinch the ear real quick and let go, or do you pinch the ear UNTIL the bumper is in the mouth? Riight...you pinch until the bumper is in the mouth, so the dog KNOWS how to shut the pressure off. When transitioning from the ear pinch to the collar, the same applies....then during walking fetch and force to pile (FTP) the same applies...continuous until the bumper is in the mouth. You start on a low setting and move your way up...same with water force. Nicking during this part is doing nothing more than confusing the dog.

Labs


Labs, Yep, how I do it and I do the same continuous with all my pressure applications, be it for "Here", "Down", "Leave it"........what ever. Don
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby gonehuntin' » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:30 pm

Labs, ya got a lot to learn about the reactions caused by electrical stimulations of varying intensities, their positive and negative influences, and how dogs are driven by them.

But, as you said. You so it your way, I'll do it mine. Not gonna get into another long discussion here and argue about it.
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