MAX PSI ???????????????

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MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby goose_gunner » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:20 pm

So I was looking at my rsi load data I was the looking at number 97 its a 10ga load that says its 12,000psi load but from my understand the 10ga has a max psi of 11,000 so what gives
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby Theduckguru » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:42 pm

You are correct, the SAAMI spec for 10ga is 11K. You need to contact RSI for clarification.
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby Frank Lopez » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:43 pm

According to my copy of SAAMI Z299.2 - 92 Shotshell pressures, the MAP for a 10ga is indeed 11,000psi. If anyone is knowingly publishing data for loads that is over pressure and it's not a misprint (even a misprint should have a correction), I would think they are leaving themselves open to legal action.

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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby BT Justice » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:01 am

Frank Lopez wrote:According to my copy of SAAMI Z299.2 - 92 Shotshell pressures, the MAP for a 10ga is indeed 11,000psi. If anyone is knowingly publishing data for loads that is over pressure and it's not a misprint (even a misprint should have a correction), I would think they are leaving themselves open to legal action.

Frank

Not really if you think about it.
They only publish the load data and list it as 12,000 psi so they are telling you outright it's over SAAMI specs for the 10 ga.
If you decide to load it knowing it's listed as overpressure to start with then it would be your responsibility...don't you think?
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby solway gunner » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:39 am

In the UK both 12ga 3.5" and 10ga share the same 1050bar max pressure rating and these are the same guns that US users share.Seriously ,those SAAMI psi specs are outdated and were only put into place to protect all the old sbs 10ga guns out there from the turn of the 20th century;most modern US steel reloaders realise this.Look at a modern 10ga 3.5"gun like a gold or sp10,feel/look like it cant shoot steel at the same psi as a 12ga 3.5"? Fact is they dont have to because they operate equivalent loads at much lower psi much more effectively anyway,but yes they can operate at to the same pressure safely if you feel you want to dislocate your shoulder without the gun exploding ,but thankfuly you dont have to,which is why some of us use them.
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby Theduckguru » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:40 am

BT Justice wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:According to my copy of SAAMI Z299.2 - 92 Shotshell pressures, the MAP for a 10ga is indeed 11,000psi. If anyone is knowingly publishing data for loads that is over pressure and it's not a misprint (even a misprint should have a correction), I would think they are leaving themselves open to legal action.

Frank

Not really if you think about it.
They only publish the load data and list it as 12,000 psi so they are telling you outright it's over SAAMI specs for the 10 ga.
If you decide to load it knowing it's listed as overpressure to start with then it would be your responsibility...don't you think?


In their Volumn VII, No 1 reloading manual, RSI states the SAAMI Spec is 12,500 LUP, then RSI states reloaders should consider 13,500 PSI and 12,500 LUP as maximum pressure averages of 11,500 LUP/12,500 PSI as a sensible value reloaders should use.

No where in their data do the list any SAAMI specs, so I don't know how the reloader was told outright their data might exceed ammunition/firearm manufacturers reccomendations by 15%.
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby BT Justice » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:58 am

Theduckguru wrote:
BT Justice wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:According to my copy of SAAMI Z299.2 - 92 Shotshell pressures, the MAP for a 10ga is indeed 11,000psi. If anyone is knowingly publishing data for loads that is over pressure and it's not a misprint (even a misprint should have a correction), I would think they are leaving themselves open to legal action.

Frank

Not really if you think about it.
They only publish the load data and list it as 12,000 psi so they are telling you outright it's over SAAMI specs for the 10 ga.
If you decide to load it knowing it's listed as overpressure to start with then it would be your responsibility...don't you think?


In their Volumn VII, No 1 reloading manual, RSI states the SAAMI Spec is 12,500 LUP, then RSI states reloaders should consider 13,500 PSI and 12,500 LUP as maximum pressure averages of 11,500 LUP/12,500 PSI as a sensible value reloaders should use.

No where in their data do the list any SAAMI specs, so I don't know how the reloader was told outright their data might exceed ammunition/firearm manufacturers reccomendations by 15%.

RSI did not set the spec SAAMI did as Frank stated....So I wouldn't take their word for it to start with
Don't you think it would be wise for anyone who is going to reload to know the pressure specs and consult more than one data source???
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby Quacker-Wacker » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:21 am

If the max PSI for a 10ga is 11,000 PSI then what is the max for a 12ga 3" gun? RSI #80 is at 12,200 PSI. Is this load safe?
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby Frank Lopez » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:43 am

BT Justice wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:According to my copy of SAAMI Z299.2 - 92 Shotshell pressures, the MAP for a 10ga is indeed 11,000psi. If anyone is knowingly publishing data for loads that is over pressure and it's not a misprint (even a misprint should have a correction), I would think they are leaving themselves open to legal action.

Frank

Not really if you think about it.
They only publish the load data and list it as 12,000 psi so they are telling you outright it's over SAAMI specs for the 10 ga.
If you decide to load it knowing it's listed as overpressure to start with then it would be your responsibility...don't you think?


I would tend to agree with you, but stranger things have happened in our justice system.

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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby Frank Lopez » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:48 am

Quacker-Wacker wrote:If the max PSI for a 10ga is 11,000 PSI then what is the max for a 12ga 3" gun? RSI #80 is at 12,200 PSI. Is this load safe?


All 12ga guns and shells per SAAMI are 11,500psi MAP, EXCEPT the 3 1/2 inch 12ga which is 14,000psi.

Just a note on this. It's been mentioned in this and other forums by the resident "reloading experts" that these published overloads would be safe to shoot in 3 1/2 inch guns.

Frank
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby Gcdhunter » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:34 am

I used RSI 80 this year with #2's out of my BPS supermag. It patterned great and I have had no problems but am considering a different load for next duck season. Anybody have an idea of what the pressure is for Remington 3" 1 1/4oz 1700fps hypersonics is. I gotta think its pretty high at least in the 11,000 range
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby Jon Bergren » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:05 am

As Soloway said the Brits have been using 1050 bar in all their guns including American made, that includes 3" 12 gages also. That's 15,230 psi. SAAMI is controlled by the Manufacturers while the UK gov't controlls the pressures there. The Danes 15/16 oz load of 3's runs 2034 fps at 14,008 psi totally acceptable there. The Dane that gave me this load shoots it in an 870 with a Mod choke. Sol, are the shotguns made in Turkey capable of shooting 1050 bar loads?? Ned S
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby baltz526 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:28 am

Gcdhunter wrote:I used RSI 80 this year with #2's out of my BPS supermag. It patterned great and I have had no problems but am considering a different load for next duck season. Anybody have an idea of what the pressure is for Remington 3" 1 1/4oz 1700fps hypersonics is. I gotta think its pretty high at least in the 11,000 range
Pressure may not be any higher at 1700fps than a standard loads 1400fps. Little things can alter pressure and velocity with a reloaded shell. I saw a pretty good example of a small change dramatically changing a load a few days ago. A 10ga load I have been shooting for several years. Runs an average 1590fps. I waterproofed some crimps with paraffin wax. I know the velocity of this load runs 1590fps without wax, so I used one to confirm My crongraph was reading correctly. I got 1690fps. Crimp seal was the minor change. If I was to continue using wax, I'll need to reduce powder charge on the Remington hull. Or have the load pressure tested. Factory ammo runs through a Laboratory with all the tools, We do not have. Trust them or not. Just like you trust a reloading book, or not.
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby Quacker-Wacker » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:33 am

Frank Lopez wrote:
Quacker-Wacker wrote:If the max PSI for a 10ga is 11,000 PSI then what is the max for a 12ga 3" gun? RSI #80 is at 12,200 PSI. Is this load safe?


All 12ga guns and shells per SAAMI are 11,500psi MAP, EXCEPT the 3 1/2 inch 12ga which is 14,000psi.

Just a note on this. It's been mentioned in this and other forums by the resident "reloading experts" that these published overloads would be safe to shoot in 3 1/2 inch guns.

Frank


So I should not shoot this load in my 3" Vinci or my Auto 5 Mag 12?
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby Theduckguru » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:16 pm

Any time you try a new steel load you should be suspicious or the accuracy of the recipe. I have 3 boxes sitting on the shelf from 10 years ago to remind me that some published loads may not meet my safety requirements.

I would start by down loading 2 grains and do some testing as the charges were increased. Look at the spent hulls, are the bases starting to dome? Is the recoil starting to feel sharp like a hammer hitting an avil? How are the actions on the semi autos reacting adversely to the recoil? What is the pattern doing? If it all works, shoot it.
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby skybusterbob » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:37 pm

Gcdhunter wrote:I used RSI 80 this year with #2's out of my BPS supermag. It patterned great and I have had no problems but am considering a different load for next duck season. Anybody have an idea of what the pressure is for Remington 3" 1 1/4oz 1700fps hypersonics is. I gotta think its pretty high at least in the 11,000 range

I have the RSI book but not with me. What speed, shot charge and gull is this load?
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby Gcdhunter » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:51 pm

rsi #80

Remington 3" hull
fed 209a primer
33gr steel powder
3" sam 1 wad
546 gr steel shot
1475 fps
12,100psi

I shot it over the chrony a few months ago and it averaged just under 1400fps. shot it at 40yds through my browning bps with a carlsons improved modified extended choke and got 80% inside 30in with #2's
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby skybusterbob » Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:27 pm

Gcdhunter wrote:rsi #80

Remington 3" hull
fed 209a primer
33gr steel powder
3" sam 1 wad
546 gr steel shot
1475 fps
12,100psi

I shot it over the chrony a few months ago and it averaged just under 1400fps. shot it at 40yds through my browning bps with a carlsons improved modified extended choke and got 80% inside 30in with #2's
I shoot that load but out of Ched, fed and winchester s. I rarely get Remember hulls and when I do I load 75 with 1 shot.
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby solway gunner » Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:52 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:As Soloway said the Brits have been using 1050 bar in all their guns including American made, that includes 3" 12 gages also. That's 15,230 psi. SAAMI is controlled by the Manufacturers while the UK gov't controlls the pressures there. The Danes 15/16 oz load of 3's runs 2034 fps at 14,008 psi totally acceptable there. The Dane that gave me this load shoots it in an 870 with a Mod choke. Sol, are the shotguns made in Turkey capable of shooting 1050 bar loads?? Ned S


Ned
Yes they are 100%.Before a gun can hit a gundealers rack every single shotgun that comes into the UK via importers must first be submitted for proof testing and internal bore measurment which is then stamped onto the barrel and depending on its type of action and chamber length is proofed accordingly.Your gun will be proofed for high performance steel loads as are pretty much all semi autos these days at 1050bar.
(Just for posterity the only guns which are an exception to the ruling are Italian guns which are proofed to an even higher proof limit than is required for by both SAAMI and CIP (beyond 17k psi)and are proofed "in house"by the makers themselves and can be sold straight away by dealers.,this was often the problem when waiting for a US made gun if the Birmingham or London proofhouse had a backlog which it often did ,you could wait literaly weeks to get your new gun despite the fact it may have been in the UK for a few months! wheras beretta could get you one in literaly 5minutes..)
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby Gcdhunter » Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:47 pm

skybusterbob wrote:
Gcdhunter wrote:rsi #80

Remington 3" hull
fed 209a primer
33gr steel powder
3" sam 1 wad
546 gr steel shot
1475 fps
12,100psi

I shot it over the chrony a few months ago and it averaged just under 1400fps. shot it at 40yds through my browning bps with a carlsons improved modified extended choke and got 80% inside 30in with #2's
I shoot that load but out of Ched, fed and winchester s. I rarely get Remember hulls and when I do I load 75 with 1 shot.


do you use win or cheddite primers in rsi 75. I have only used fed primers and have been very happy. I want to try rsi 74,75 with ched primer
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby 3200 man » Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:52 pm

That's interesting info Solway ! My Fabarms XLR 5 , says it's proofed to 1630 bars so , when you say , In House , are
those proofs reliable as one would think ? With this gun only being a 2 3/4" chambered gun , it does make the mind wonder !
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby Jon Bergren » Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:53 pm

Gcdhunter wrote:
skybusterbob wrote:
Gcdhunter wrote:rsi #80

Remington 3" hull
fed 209a primer
33gr steel powder
3" sam 1 wad
546 gr steel shot
1475 fps
12,100psi

I shot it over the chrony a few months ago and it averaged just under 1400fps. shot it at 40yds through my browning bps with a carlsons improved modified extended choke and got 80% inside 30in with #2's
I shoot that load but out of Ched, fed and winchester s. I rarely get Remember hulls and when I do I load 75 with 1 shot.


do you use win or cheddite primers in rsi 75. I have only used fed primers and have been very happy. I want to try rsi 74,75 with ched primer


RSI said I coulld sub Cheddites for Win primers. I do this and get the same velocities. Ned S
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby skybusterbob » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:17 pm

No I use w209.
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby solway gunner » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:06 pm

3200 man wrote:That's interesting info Solway ! My Fabarms XLR 5 , says it's proofed to 1630 bars so , when you say , In House , are
those proofs reliable as one would think ? With this gun only being a 2 3/4" chambered gun , it does make the mind wonder !


100%reliable done by Fabarm in their factory, but this is where the problem lies !Proof test pressures are basicaly the pressure the gun barrel is guaranteed to reliably hold up to before things go wrong.,to give an idea in BAR pressure of what a comfortable 3.5" 12ga steel loading is,is around 700bar- towards 900bar although within proof limits of the gun and SAAMI /CIP regs is uncomfortable to shoot and repeat use causes internal damage to the gun-(I know this as ive been there and got the crown when in my early days of steel reloading i had my loads pressure tested )Basicaly the 1640bar level is simply the manufacture stating his claim of producing a very high quality and durable barrel in order to help promote a quality gun,not /never intended for someone to try and load to! Actions on Italian guns actions are proofed up to similar pressures indictive of two stars ** ,HOWEVER the internals whilst being some of the strongest currently made wont stand up to extreme pressures such as those as ive just stated,thats if you could load up to them using correct powder/components,i cant imagine what the recoil would be like and i wouldnt like to find out either!!
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Re: MAX PSI ???????????????

Postby Frank Lopez » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:09 pm

CIP requires a 25% over pressure. SAAMI requires 70%. The pressure measuring devices and locations of said devices are not the same. Unless you know exactly what you're doing or do not value your eyes, face or fingers, you should be very careful in reloading over pressure shells into SAAMI guns.

One last note: Beretta builds all of its guns to the same internal specifications. Some of those guns are shipped to CIP countries and some of them are shipped (assembled) to the USA. Per communication with Beretta USA, it is not advisable to shoot shells who's pressure is higher than allowed by SAAMI. The risk is yours.

Frank
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