RTO crimp = trim hull?

Interact with others on shot gun shells, reloading, ballistics, chokes, or anything that has to do with your shooting.

Moderators: donell67, NV Guide, pennsyltucky

RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby C M Wings » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:57 pm

Hey guys - do you have to trim your hull to do a roll crimp? Can you roll crimp a previously petal crimp hull or do yo have to start with new (or cut off the petal part)??

Thanks -
Ducks
C M Wings
hunter
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 pm


Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby lostknife4 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:31 pm

I do but it's better of course on a new hull. I have cut open 10 ga 3-1/2" at the edge of the crimp and made 2-7/8 hulls from them to roll crimp, I just let enough hull through the charge bar to catch the very edge of the crimp and the use a razor knife to trim the crimp off.
Lost
Image
"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
User avatar
lostknife4
hunter
 
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:32 pm
Location: New Brunswick, Eastern Canada

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby C M Wings » Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:12 pm

That's a clever application for a charge bar.

Ducks
Ducks
C M Wings
hunter
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 pm

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby 10gaOkie » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:44 pm

I use new primed Cheddite hulls for rto crimp. They are 2 3/4" untrimmed which makes a 3" volume load with a 3" over all loaded length.

Chris
10gaOkie
hunter
 
Posts: 3502
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: OKC

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby lostknife4 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:23 pm

C M Wings wrote:That's a clever application for a charge bar.

Ducks


Canadian Redneck trimmer !!
That's a MEC 302, 1-7/8 oz bar for Lead
Lost
"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
User avatar
lostknife4
hunter
 
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:32 pm
Location: New Brunswick, Eastern Canada

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby C M Wings » Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:43 pm

Chris, I don't follow... Sounds like you are stretching a hull! D. You mean you use 3 inch data in a 2-3/4 shell and can. Get away with it because of the roll crimp?

Lost, funny.l. I have that charge bar.... So good info!

Ducks
Ducks
C M Wings
hunter
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 pm

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby Jim Atlas » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:54 pm

Copper pipe. End is flared to fit the hull rim.
Attachments
2014-02-23_20-50-51_226.jpg
It's only sky busting if you miss...
User avatar
Jim Atlas
hunter
 
Posts: 598
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:31 am
Location: NW Ore.

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby 10gaOkie » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:59 pm

When you roll crimp a standard length new 2 3/4" hull, you only use 1/16" of hull length for the crimp, approx. Therefore, when doing this, you obtain a 3" hull volume. This only works when using the rto crimp, NOT folded crimp which takes over 1/4" length of the hull. You can put a rto crimped 2 3/4" hull next to a factory 3" folded crimp shell and they are the same height or length. If you like, I have pics that I can email you of this comparison which might help you understand better. My email is tengaokie@aol.com.
Also when I load the very same load in both the 3" rto crimp shell and the 3" folded crimp shell, I load them the same except I load the folded crimp shell with one less grain of powder. By doing this, it gives them both the same pressure. Thus, the rto crimp drops pressure and velocity some, unless of course you account for it by adjusting the powder charge.
If you desire to load rto crimped 2 3/4" shells, using 2 3/4" new hulls, you will have to trim them shorter than standard over all length.

Chris
10gaOkie
hunter
 
Posts: 3502
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: OKC

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby Jim Atlas » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:49 pm

I will add to the Okie's comments that the allowable OAL for la loaded 2-3/4" roll crimped shell is longer than a folded one.
Also, for what it's worth, the length of a loaded shell only matters as it affects the gun's cycling. In other words, as long as the hull isn't longer than 2.76", it can be fired in a 2-3/4" gun. I have an old 870 with a standard reserver that has no problem cycling 2-3/4" roll crimped shells that are as long as a 3" folded one.
It's only sky busting if you miss...
User avatar
Jim Atlas
hunter
 
Posts: 598
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:31 am
Location: NW Ore.

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby 10gaOkie » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:57 am

I might add....it is not ok to use 3" volume hull load data for a 2 3/4" volume hull. I do not do this in any case ever.

Chris
10gaOkie
hunter
 
Posts: 3502
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: OKC

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby C M Wings » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:04 am

Chris - so... almost sounds like a contradiction? One post says that due to less material needed, a roll crimp gives a 2-3/4 shell 3" volume, the you say in another post you don't use 3" data in a 2 3/4 shell.... So I get it that one cannot do that with a fold crimp, but with a roll crimp, if a 3" load fits in a shorter shell, why not? Doesn't it just save on trimming down a 3" hull??

Joe
Ducks
C M Wings
hunter
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 pm

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby 10gaOkie » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:34 am

The key here is volume. The volume has much to do with controling pressure. You say if it fits, why not? The answer is increased pressure which will be above max and not safe. I never once said I use a 3" recipe in a 2 3/4" hull. What I said was I make a 3" volume hull using a new 2 3/4" hull which allows me to use a 3" volume recipe. Volume, volume, volume is the key here. Anyway, generally, a 3" volume" recipe will not fit in a 2 3/4" volume shell anyway.
The load I am loading will not fit in a 2 3/4" folded crimp hull, no way, no how. But it will fit in a 3" volume hull made by roll crimping a new 2 3/4" hull. I gave you my email to send you pics of these loads and hulls to make it more plain. You never contacted me. I cannot make this anymore plain in words.

Chris
10gaOkie
hunter
 
Posts: 3502
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: OKC

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby C M Wings » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:55 am

Chris - I tried emailing and I get an "invalid email address" error using tengaokie@aol.com.

Joe
Ducks
C M Wings
hunter
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 pm

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby 10gaOkie » Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:31 pm

Joe
You might try that email addy again. Its a good one as I get lots of emails everyday. Just click on the blue link. Another way is to send me a PM that contains your email addy.

Chris
10gaOkie
hunter
 
Posts: 3502
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: OKC

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby FishH2o » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:16 pm

10gaOkie wrote:The key here is volume. The volume has much to do with controling pressure. You say if it fits, why not? The answer is increased pressure which will be above max and not safe. I never once said I use a 3" recipe in a 2 3/4" hull. What I said was I make a 3" volume hull using a new 2 3/4" hull which allows me to use a 3" volume recipe. Volume, volume, volume is the key here. Anyway, generally, a 3" volume" recipe will not fit in a 2 3/4" volume shell anyway.
The load I am loading will not fit in a 2 3/4" folded crimp hull, no way, no how. But it will fit in a 3" volume hull made by roll crimping a new 2 3/4" hull. I gave you my email to send you pics of these loads and hulls to make it more plain. You never contacted me. I cannot make this anymore plain in words.

Chris



Guys I know this is an old post but I want to make sure I understand this. If I have a 12 ga 3 inch load that I want to roll crimp I can cut down a new case to the same length as a 2 3/4 and it will be fine. However, I cannot take that same load and use it in a 2 3/4 inch new hull of the same type and roll crimp it to get that 3 inch load??
Roll with it. If you stay above 55 the wheel wont fall off.
http://www.tungstensupershots.com
FishH2o
hunter
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby 10gaOkie » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:05 pm

Joe
That email address is a good one. Try again. If that dont work send meyour email addy in a PM. My best advise is to stick with a folded crimp then finish it with a gaep finishing head.

Chris
10gaOkie
hunter
 
Posts: 3502
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: OKC

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby Jim Atlas » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:42 pm

FishH2o wrote:
10gaOkie wrote:The key here is volume. The volume has much to do with controling pressure. You say if it fits, why not? The answer is increased pressure which will be above max and not safe. I never once said I use a 3" recipe in a 2 3/4" hull. What I said was I make a 3" volume hull using a new 2 3/4" hull which allows me to use a 3" volume recipe. Volume, volume, volume is the key here. Anyway, generally, a 3" volume" recipe will not fit in a 2 3/4" volume shell anyway.
The load I am loading will not fit in a 2 3/4" folded crimp hull, no way, no how. But it will fit in a 3" volume hull made by roll crimping a new 2 3/4" hull. I gave you my email to send you pics of these loads and hulls to make it more plain. You never contacted me. I cannot make this anymore plain in words.

Chris



Guys I know this is an old post but I want to make sure I understand this. If I have a 12 ga 3 inch load that I want to roll crimp I can cut down a new case to the same length as a 2 3/4 and it will be fine. However, I cannot take that same load and use it in a 2 3/4 inch new hull of the same type and roll crimp it to get that 3 inch load??


If your unfolded/unrolled overall length is 2.76" or less, then it's a 2.75" load. If it's under 11,500 psi, than it's a safe 2.75" load. 3" and 2.75" chambers are rated for the same psi.
It's only sky busting if you miss...
User avatar
Jim Atlas
hunter
 
Posts: 598
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:31 am
Location: NW Ore.

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby Dave in AZ » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:28 am

FishH2o wrote:
10gaOkie wrote:The key here is volume. The volume has much to do with controling pressure. You say if it fits, why not? The answer is increased pressure which will be above max and not safe. I never once said I use a 3" recipe in a 2 3/4" hull. What I said was I make a 3" volume hull using a new 2 3/4" hull which allows me to use a 3" volume recipe. Volume, volume, volume is the key here. Anyway, generally, a 3" volume" recipe will not fit in a 2 3/4" volume shell anyway.
The load I am loading will not fit in a 2 3/4" folded crimp hull, no way, no how. But it will fit in a 3" volume hull made by roll crimping a new 2 3/4" hull. I gave you my email to send you pics of these loads and hulls to make it more plain. You never contacted me. I cannot make this anymore plain in words.

Chris



Guys I know this is an old post but I want to make sure I understand this. If I have a 12 ga 3 inch load that I want to roll crimp I can cut down a new case to the same length as a 2 3/4 and it will be fine. However, I cannot take that same load and use it in a 2 3/4 inch new hull of the same type and roll crimp it to get that 3 inch load??


No, I don't think you're reading it right, or at least your phrasing above is incredibly confusing. You CAN'T take a 3" load/recipe, and load it in a 2-3/4" hull, or cut a 3" hull down and THEN load a 3" load in it-- you NEED the volume of the 3" hull to get safe pressures with the 3" recipe.

The only thing 10gaOkie is doing, and the "caveat" to the above is this: IF you can ROLL CRIMP a NEW 2-3/4" hull (you can use full length), and the finished shell OAL is the same or longer than a fold-crimped 3" hull... well, then you've still got the VOLUME of a 3" hull hey?? If the concept is too confusing, then you shouldn't be even thinking about it because it's a simple understanding of what a 3" hull gives you different than a 2.75" hull. I'd skip the whole idea, new 2.75" hulls to roll crimp are the same price as new 3" hulls, might as well just buy the 3"...
Dave in AZ
hunter
 
Posts: 833
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:43 am

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:16 pm

Image
these are the ten ga 3-1/2" hulls trimmed back to 2-7/8" as was shown earlier in this post.

Image
GAEP crimp heads

Image
GAEP hull vise, no moving parts and this one tool works for all gauges

Image

Image
The stages of cutting back a 28 ga hull for RTO roll crimping

Image

Image

Image

Image
28 Ga

Image
Ready to RTO

Image
Cold up here

Image

Image
28, 12, 10, 8 gauges

Image
"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
User avatar
lostknife4
hunter
 
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:32 pm
Location: New Brunswick, Eastern Canada

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby FishH2o » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:54 am

Thanks Lost. Thats what I was thinking just cut down the 3inch hull. I really appreciate your post
Roll with it. If you stay above 55 the wheel wont fall off.
http://www.tungstensupershots.com
FishH2o
hunter
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:23 pm

10gaOkie wrote:When you roll crimp a standard length new 2 3/4" hull, you only use 1/16" of hull length for the crimp, approx. Therefore, when doing this, you obtain a 3" hull volume. This only works when using the rto crimp, NOT folded crimp which takes over 1/4" length of the hull. You can put a rto crimped 2 3/4" hull next to a factory 3" folded crimp shell and they are the same height or length. If you like, I have pics that I can email you of this comparison which might help you understand better. My email is tengaokie@aol.com.
Also when I load the very same load in both the 3" rto crimp shell and the 3" folded crimp shell, I load them the same except I load the folded crimp shell with one less grain of powder. By doing this, it gives them both the same pressure. Thus, the rto crimp drops pressure and velocity some, unless of course you account for it by adjusting the powder charge.
If you desire to load rto crimped 2 3/4" shells, using 2 3/4" new hulls, you will have to trim them shorter than standard over all length.

Chris


I use this technique to get 2½" hulls from 2¾" hulls in 12 ga and 28 ga, 2¾" hulls from 3" hulls in 12 ga, and in the 10 ga 2-7/8" hulls from 3½" hulls.
If you RTO NEW hulls of standard length then you will increase the useable volume of the hull.
i.e. If you cut the 3" 12 ga hull to 2¾" and roll crip you have the same internal volume as a fold crimped 3"
Clear as mud eh?

Lost
"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
User avatar
lostknife4
hunter
 
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:32 pm
Location: New Brunswick, Eastern Canada

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby FishH2o » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:57 am

haha yes it is!
Roll with it. If you stay above 55 the wheel wont fall off.
http://www.tungstensupershots.com
FishH2o
hunter
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby ImBillT » Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:32 pm

I think I get the whole concept, but I want to make sure that what we I'm taking from it is something that other people are doing and not encountering problems. Are you saying that I can take 3" load data, load it into a 2 3/4" hull, and if it fits with room for a roll crimp, then I can safely shoot it in a 2 3/4" gun? It makes sense. I just don't wanna be the first person to do it!
ImBillT
hunter
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:43 pm

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby Jim Atlas » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:58 pm

If it fits in a 2.75" case and is under 11,500 psi, than it's safe in any gun with a 2.75" or longer chamber.
It's only sky busting if you miss...
User avatar
Jim Atlas
hunter
 
Posts: 598
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:31 am
Location: NW Ore.

Re: RTO crimp = trim hull?

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:10 am

No we are not saying that at all, what we are saying is that you can shorten hulls and any safe load that is currently used in that shorter length hull can now be used in this shortened hull.
Now for any load that needs a bit more space then a roll crimp will give you that little extra space.
WE ARE NOT SAYING THAT YOU CAN USE THE SAME LONGER HULL LENGTH LOADINGS IN THOSE SHORTENED HULLS Roll crimping for a 2¾" 12 ga hull will give you the same amount of usable internal volume as a 3" 12 ga hull that is fold crimped. I have shortened 3" and used them as 2¾" because the fold crimp section of the hulls were frayed and cracked. I used the same payload but BUT I used 2¾" loading data in those old Active hulls.
Lost
"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
User avatar
lostknife4
hunter
 
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:32 pm
Location: New Brunswick, Eastern Canada

Next

Return to Shotshell, Reloading, Ballistics, & Chokes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: lostknife4 and 4 guests