Why Incredibly Fast Shells

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:42 am

Beretta06 wrote:I shot 200 rounds of tungsten Matrix 3" #5 1-1/4 oz 1525fps by far the best thing I have ever shot, bought it from cabelas on sale years ago for $131 per 100 now it $4.50 $5 a round or so. Haven't bothered with any other tungsten rounds since.

It's been fun thinking a little out of the box and going from one of the largest duck loads on the market. And hand loading a small fast load and enjoying the same and better success. It really fun shooting next to someone that's still got the 3.5" in the gun and giving the crap after you limited with 1-1/16 oz and now your backing them up knocking their birds down. It really gets to my brother. LOL

I tested the 1-1/16oz 3s @ 1730 I didn't expect to like it, the pellet count is near what I like I patterned it, again unexpected it was good, took it to the blind, and it's real good, I like that sound it makes when it hits the bird like a slap on bear skin. A good Square hit. 1-1/16oz isn't what I expected to like, it just fits my situation so well decoys to 50 yd so well.

And I'm new to D.H.C it's been fun mixing it up with you guys. Sometimes you learn somthing, If your open to somthing that isn't your own thoughts or ideas.

Dwight

You ever think that through all the trial and error maybe you just shoot better now? After experimenting with everything you found a light load that works for you but maybe your aim has just improved that much... is it the load or you? could you do better with more steel in the air?

Just things I would ask myself.

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby 3200 man » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:40 am

I'm happy that load works for you but , I get the same slap sound with 1 oz of 3's at 200 fps less so , Mugs is right , if
you shoot it well , great , but there is really no need for that much velocity inside of a decoy spread or out to 50 yds with 3's .
If you want more pellets in your birds , try a tighter choke as a .025 (IM) works fine for me on Grassland Birds .
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby mudpack » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:28 am

Frank Lopez wrote:[ When the wind is up, you've got two choices. Use heavier shot or cut down your range.
I know, I'm late to the party, but there is a third choice; allow for wind drift. It's what rifle shooters do, and it works equally well with a shotgun. It's actually the choice I prefer, since it's the most simple.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby aunt betty » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:37 am

Shot a few boxes of High speed steel and the only difference I noticed was that it made my shogun kick so hard that it would slide back and bang the **** out of my middle finger with the trigger guard.
It caused me to flinch because it hurt like...you know.

It's just a gimmick. I kill way more birds with 1400-1500 fps ammo.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Beretta06 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:38 am

Nah mugz I became a better shooter when I started shooting trap years ago after I met my wife, she was already a state champion as a junior, After I started shooting targets every weekend is when my eyes really opened, why I like this load is it duplicates penetration of what I used to shoot, to 50 yards then falls off, which is fine because that's the sweet spot I was looking for, 25-30yd to 50, with roughly same # of pellets in the pattern.


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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby slowshooter » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:15 am

3200 brings up a really good point.

Every distance has a sweet spot for speed, payload, shot size, pattern, recoil and lethality.

Removing peculiarities of everyone's guns performing differently (and different skill sets) it would be great to chart the most appropriate loads, or better stated, which loads will provide the highest incidence of DRT shots that will still deliver something edible to the dinner table.

Folks using skinny fast loads at long distances - or using BBs or T shot inside of 20 yards might be getting great results. But I wouldn't want to have a pattern that was thinning at 60+ yards, anymore than I would want to send my dog to pick up feathered mush floating in the decoys. Nor would I recommend either to a new gunner.

Maybe the basics could be covered with something like:

Best load for 15 - 35 yards:
Shot size: 3,4 and 5
Speed: 1300 - 1500
Payload: 1 oz to 1 1/4
Estimated pellets per bird: 5-7
Choke: IC

Granted I just pulled the numbers above out of thin air, but it's really tough for folks to get an uncolored, objective answer when they ask what's the "best" load. All I know for sure is that right answer is very rarely "the biggest shot and payload at the fastest speed that won't blow up your barrel".

If distances were charted with recommended "you can't fail with these shells" recommendations it would do a great service to the duck hunters that might not be able to hit a goose at 70 or 80 yards with a 7/8ths ounce load. As well as help duck hunters who might not be accustomed to navigating between a marketing department's insinuation of a promise - and actual results.

This is really the only forum where I would bring up the idea because most folks experiment here to stretch performance on their loads - but understand where the baselines rest to get optimum results for the average hunter.

It would also help frame conversations when folks talk about something they are doing that isn't normative.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby 3200 man » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:49 am

We all know when we pattern our gun /loads/chokes what we like to see but , are we shooting these patterns at the
distance we normally shoot our birds ? Thinking guys would do this at 10 yds closer and 10 yds farther would tell us the
extremes of our ability ? If you load or buy ammo for 50 yd shooting ,whether it's for ducks or geese , should tell you how
handi-capped you would be at the other extreme distance with the birds you hit ? A shotguns for close range shooting
no matter which way you use it , pattern density and spread helps us a lot as long as the pellet size is adequate for the
bird size we intend to kill .......EAT.....that is the question ! :yes: :thumbsup:
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:46 am

slowshooter wrote:3200 brings up a really good point.

Every distance has a sweet spot for speed, payload, shot size, pattern, recoil and lethality.

Removing peculiarities of everyone's guns performing differently (and different skill sets) it would be great to chart the most appropriate loads, or better stated, which loads will provide the highest incidence of DRT shots that will still deliver something edible to the dinner table.

Folks using skinny fast loads at long distances - or using BBs or T shot inside of 20 yards might be getting great results. But I wouldn't want to have a pattern that was thinning at 60+ yards, anymore than I would want to send my dog to pick up feathered mush floating in the decoys. Nor would I recommend either to a new gunner.

Maybe the basics could be covered with something like:

Best load for 15 - 35 yards:
Shot size: 3,4 and 5
Speed: 1300 - 1500
Payload: 1 oz to 1 1/4
Estimated pellets per bird: 5-7
Choke: IC

Granted I just pulled the numbers above out of thin air, but it's really tough for folks to get an uncolored, objective answer when they ask what's the "best" load. All I know for sure is that right answer is very rarely "the biggest shot and payload at the fastest speed that won't blow up your barrel".

If distances were charted with recommended "you can't fail with these shells" recommendations it would do a great service to the duck hunters that might not be able to hit a goose at 70 or 80 yards with a 7/8ths ounce load. As well as help duck hunters who might not be accustomed to navigating between a marketing department's insinuation of a promise - and actual results.

This is really the only forum where I would bring up the idea because most folks experiment here to stretch performance on their loads - but understand where the baselines rest to get optimum results for the average hunter.

It would also help frame conversations when folks talk about something they are doing that isn't normative.


This is good stuff.

I would put that "best all around load" as #2's 1-1/4oz at 1400fps with a MOD choke.

from beginner to pro... it'll whallop decoying ducks and take down passing geese.

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby HCK » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:27 am

Terror 675 or kick's x-full HF choke 1 1/8 oz number 4 shots and speed 1550-1750fps kill ducks under 50 yards easy. Goose same speed but number 2 or 1 shots and about 520 grain loads.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby mudpack » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:39 am

steelshotshooter wrote:Great story Ned, thanks for sharing...

You got a picture of that old double gun you could post....



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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby steelshotshooter » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:43 am

Long enough.... :thumbsup:
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Jon Bergren » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:45 am

Mugzwump wrote:
slowshooter wrote:3200 brings up a really good point.

Every distance has a sweet spot for speed, payload, shot size, pattern, recoil and lethality.

Removing peculiarities of everyone's guns performing differently (and different skill sets) it would be great to chart the most appropriate loads, or better stated, which loads will provide the highest incidence of DRT shots that will still deliver something edible to the dinner table.

Folks using skinny fast loads at long distances - or using BBs or T shot inside of 20 yards might be getting great results. But I wouldn't want to have a pattern that was thinning at 60+ yards, anymore than I would want to send my dog to pick up feathered mush floating in the decoys. Nor would I recommend either to a new gunner.

Maybe the basics could be covered with something like:

Best load for 15 - 35 yards:
Shot size: 3,4 and 5
Speed: 1300 - 1500
Payload: 1 oz to 1 1/4
Estimated pellets per bird: 5-7
Choke: IC

Granted I just pulled the numbers above out of thin air, but it's really tough for folks to get an uncolored, objective answer when they ask what's the "best" load. All I know for sure is that right answer is very rarely "the biggest shot and payload at the fastest speed that won't blow up your barrel".

If distances were charted with recommended "you can't fail with these shells" recommendations it would do a great service to the duck hunters that might not be able to hit a goose at 70 or 80 yards with a 7/8ths ounce load. As well as help duck hunters who might not be accustomed to navigating between a marketing department's insinuation of a promise - and actual results.

This is really the only forum where I would bring up the idea because most folks experiment here to stretch performance on their loads - but understand where the baselines rest to get optimum results for the average hunter.

It would also help frame conversations when folks talk about something they are doing that isn't normative.


This is good stuff.

I would put that "best all around load" as #2's 1-1/4oz at 1400fps with a MOD choke.
from beginner to pro... it'll whallop decoying ducks and take down passing geese.

Mugz.


2's at 1400 fps will penetrate to kill to 50 yds, hardlya a passing goose load. Ned S
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby kenner » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:07 pm

Ned, do you have a gel penetration figure, or something to quantify "penetrate to kill"? Just so we can compare loads and notes with others.
Thanks!... Ken


Open chokes give a lotta spread and will mush a bird in close and miss it out further, as the pattern runs out of density quickly.
Tighter chokes will maintain a more consistent pattern through the distances.

Fast loads of large shot will leave your bird very dead and inedible at closer ranges;
Fast loads of small shot will really kill a bird at closer ranges, but smaller shot loses momentum more rapidly than a large pellet of the same material, as it enters the bird.

Each velocity of load, shot size, payload, and choke constriction has it's application, which includes quarry size and range, along with a mix of other conditions....

Go to the trap club, shoot "low gun" (as when hunting), and practice with tighter chokes. :beer:
Last edited by kenner on Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Jon Bergren » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:18 pm

kenner wrote:Ned, do you have a gel penetration figure, or something to quantify "penetrate to kill"? Just so we can compare loads and notes with others.
Thanks!... Ken

It's where the load reaches 600 fps and has a gel penetration of 1.33". Ned S
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby J J Mac » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:20 pm

kenner wrote:Ned, do you have a gel penetration figure, or something to quantify "penetrate to kill"? Just so we can compare loads and notes with others.
Thanks!... Ken


Impact velocity = 600 fps for any shot size. Here are some comparisons with penetration in ballistic gelatin
http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/shotgun-shell-ballistics.php
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby kenner » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:38 pm

600 fps doesn't apply to all sizes of shot. Otherwise dust particles and bowling balls, made of the same material, moving at the same velocity, would penetrate equally.

(Okay Lost Bill, I'll give you this one, 'bout using small TSS) ;-)

600 fps must work for a certain size shot.... on a certain size bird. So maybe #8s on quail, but not large geese.

1.33" gel pen for a certain size duck, but not for swans.

I'm not trying to ridicule; each bird will require a minimum size (mass) of shot, moving at a minimum impact velocity. And therefore, to quantify the killing ability, we'll need to establish and assign a gel penetration equivalent to each bird.

Since the guys on this site shoot everything from teal to swans, we have to state the parameters, otherwise we talk passed each other and the readers will be more confused.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:12 pm

Is there a chart available hopefully with back up data that indicates the penetration capability for large and small ducks and geese of the various shot sizes?
My above chart output was to give some sort of interpretation of gel penetration and velocity, as were given, and how it affects the other variables. I will output a chart for anyone's specific criteria on request.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:21 pm

kenner wrote:600 fps doesn't apply to all sizes of shot. Otherwise dust particles and bowling balls, made of the same material, moving at the same velocity, would penetrate equally.

(Okay Lost Bill, I'll give you this one, 'bout using small TSS) ;-)

600 fps must work for a certain size shot.... on a certain size bird. So maybe #8s on quail, but not large geese.

1.33" gel pen for a certain size duck, but not for swans.

I'm not trying to ridicule; each bird will require a minimum size (mass) of shot, moving at a minimum impact velocity. And therefore, to quantify the killing ability, we'll need to establish and assign a gel penetration equivalent to each bird.

Since the guys on this site shoot everything from teal to swans, we have to state the parameters, otherwise we talk passed each other and the readers will be more confused.


I agree.

I don't pay too much attention to the gel penetration, or the minimum velocity numbers a these are just someones suggestions based on a set number of parameters.

Using my own parameters, I've killed sitting ducks with a daisy BB gun that maybe shoots a BB at 350fps MV. Okay.. maybe I had to ring his neck but that BB knocked him out long enough for me to go get my duck. I've also done the same with a wooden slingshot ( no idea of "MV" probably 150 - 200fps or less) using 3/8" ball bearings. That leaves a mark, will break wings and put jumbo holes in the bird. If you can hit it.

So that said it's really about whats effective for the task at hand.

Ned,

I never said the #2's at 1400 fps were a goose lead, though they do fine for that with a full choke, if I were to go out and buy a shell for specifically passing geese, I wouldn't choose them... But, if I had only once choice of steel shell to shoot the rest of my life at all hunts, we'll it would have to be the #2's.

If I was shooting only decoying ducks I wouldn't choose the #2's either...

These rules about velocity and energy and penetration, if you are to live by them then you must adopt the parameters that they we're set in. You can't apply them to every scenario, pellet size and/or bird species. The truth is there are different shells made for each application, and one persons idea of that application can be a lot different than someone else's.


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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:30 pm

I agree Mugz but we have to start somewhere and a general rule of thumb usually will yield an approximation based on a lot of input for a lot of differing conditions, yours included.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby kenner » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:02 pm

Some recommend the 1.33" for "ducks",, but 1.8" for fat mallards; 2.2" for "geese", but 2.5" for large geese.

Does anyone want to recommend the initial Velocity of a certain size pellet, which cleanly and reliably kills a particular species of bird with body shots? It could even be a minimum size and recommended size of pellet.... Maybe a poll?

Given pellet size and muzzle velocity and range and species of bird, Lost could run KPY to determine gel pen for that species.??

Just a thought..... That could even be done with the figs from Roster's tables to get an idea of what his gel pen. numbers are for diff size birds.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby J J Mac » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:07 pm

"I never said the #2's at 1400 fps were a goose lead, though they do fine for that with a full choke, if I were to go out and buy a shell for specifically passing geese, I wouldn't choose them... But, if I had only once choice of steel shell to shoot the rest of my life at all hunts, we'll it would have to be the #2's."

I'm not sure a full choke would help you much in killing big geese because you don't have enough penetration past 30-35 yd and you shouldn't have to have a full choke to get a killing pattern out of 1-1/4 oz #2 load containing 155 pellets at that range. Maybe so if you want to tighten up the pattern and shoot for the head.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby baltz526 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:20 pm

kenner wrote:Some recommend the 1.33" for "ducks",, but 1.8" for fat mallards; 2.2" for "geese", but 2.5" for large geese.

Does anyone want to recommend the initial Velocity of a certain size pellet, which cleanly and reliably kills a particular species of bird with body shots? It could even be a minimum size and recommended size of pellet.... Maybe a poll?

Given pellet size and muzzle velocity and range and species of bird, Lost could run KPY to determine gel pen for that species.??

Just a thought..... That could even be done with the figs from Roster's tables to get an idea of what his gel pen. numbers are for diff size birds.
Beyond about 55yrds, #2 steel started at 1560fps do not penetrate the breast bone of Western Canada geese to enter the vital organs. Same load with #1 steel will at same yardage. B - BB - BBB-T steel has plenty of penetration to do it. Even started at 1400fps. I suggest you run the program on #1 steel muzzle velocity of 1500fps. It will reach the vitals of a Large goose at 60yrds
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby steelshotshooter » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:31 pm

Canada's - T steel - 1,650 fps. - 60 yds. - pass shooting...

Mallards - #1 steel - 1,650 fps. - 60 yds. - pass shooting...

Woodies, teal, "small ducks" - #3 steel - 60 yds. - pass shooting...

Lesser Canada's, Snows, Blues, Ross, Speckle Belly - BB steel - 60 yds. - pass shooting...

All of this is assuming a true muzzle velocity of 1,650 fps. / assuming the gun is properly choked...

If maximum shooting distance is going to be 40 yds. or less, velocity can be dropped back to 1,450 fps., the same size steel shot can be used, along with a properly choked gun, and you should still be able to effectively kill any duck or goose coming to the decoys...

Yes, I'm referring to 7/8 oz. and 1 oz. loads in 2 3/4" 12 ga. loadings...

Me personally though, I still use the 1,650 fps. loads for shooting over decoys, just change out to a more open choke....
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:49 pm

J J Mac wrote:"I never said the #2's at 1400 fps were a goose lead, though they do fine for that with a full choke, if I were to go out and buy a shell for specifically passing geese, I wouldn't choose them... But, if I had only once choice of steel shell to shoot the rest of my life at all hunts, we'll it would have to be the #2's."

I'm not sure a full choke would help you much in killing big geese because you don't have enough penetration past 30-35 yd and you shouldn't have to have a full choke to get a killing pattern out of 1-1/4 oz #2 load containing 155 pellets at that range. Maybe so if you want to tighten up the pattern and shoot for the head.


That was sort of my whole point in my last post... the gel and minimum velocities are not cut and dry "will work/wont work"

I use the full choke to keep a tight pattern and aim for the head...on a big Can. goose the total area of the head and neck, including where the neck meets the body, is about the same as the whole body of a small woody or teal duck... not that hard to hit and you only need one pellet to make the kill. Even if it's a body shot, 3 or 4 pellets going at 300 or 400 fps will drop the bird.

I find T shot to make some big holes in the bird, and by the time it's out to 45-50 yards has a pretty lame pattern... I'll use #2 up to BBB for geese. I might use T shot if the wind is really hauling... Or if we're trying to drop some cripple running on the flats.

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby kenner » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:51 pm

Thanks for putting these numbers out there!

I think we should assume body shooting. Some of y'all are capable of head-shooting,, and some are shooting at point-blank distances, where smaller pellets can be used. BUT,, for people coming to this site, looking for recommended and reliable loads, they need to have loads that will give them a reasonable chance of success, if they can center the target at a given range and use the correct choke.
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