The gaep black hole sucked me in

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby jehler » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:08 pm

any of you guys have experience with the calvini press? looks interesting
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby culot » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:58 pm

jehler wrote:any of you guys have experience with the calvini press? looks interesting


I have an italian press, but not a Colvini . But i rather have a Colvini , i like they have the tools at left .
My gaep VS 1500 have the first station behind the final rotating crimp .

If yoy want the best of these type of , press check Cortini and their 5 station model .

If you want a italian type progressive press , take a closer look at OMV SIMPLY press , a friend of mine

Have one , marvelous press :thumbsup:

/Peter
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby C M Wings » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:17 am

I bought Kenner's BN4 GAEP12 gauge tool and here are the first four shells - Recipe 103 out of RSI manual.

The one in the back left corner - the one I'm holding in the one picture - I think is the best, but not nearly as nice looking as the ones y'all post! So... Any hints? Do I need to leave the pre-crimp open or closed? These were pre-crimped to where a #2 pencil eraser would fit in the opening. This produces nice crimps on my MEC. Figured I'd add a picture of the bench while i had the camera going.

I used a factory 2 3/4 shell to set the depth for the drill press. Pushed it over the shell until it stopped and locked it in place.

I think I will order a roll crimp tool this week seeing as how I'm all set up with the press now and play with it, too. Any recommendations?

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

Joe
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby 10gaOkie » Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:28 am

I use the gaep finishing head. However, I went with the PR rto heads in both 12 and 10ga. They work great for less money. I also use the BPI plastic OS discs for all my rto loads.

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby eastcoastsoxfan » Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:48 am

10gaOkie wrote:I use the gaep finishing head. However, I went with the PR rto heads in both 12 and 10ga. They work great for less money. I also use the BPI plastic OS discs for all my rto loads.

Chris


Chris,
Do the pr rto do the same as the gaep?
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby 10gaOkie » Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:20 am

I have never used the gaep brand rto heads nor even seen any, so I cant say how well they work. I have heard a couple of people say that the gaep are a superior head. I have used both the BPI and PR brands and found the PR to be the best of the two by far. All I can say is the PR heads get the job done just fine and not having ever seen the gaep brand rto head, I am pleased as punch with the PR. Maybe it is because I dont know any better. At this point, I dont see how the gaep could be any better. The only thing I ran into was the PR heads look almost identical. It is easy to get them mixed up during intall in the drill press. I shot a coat of paint on one of mine to quickly tell them apart. In other words, if you try to use a 10ga head on a 12ga hull, you will get very bad results and vice versa. If another brand was available for a finishing head, I would have probably tried it before the gaep due to the cost of the gaep.

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby lostknife4 » Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:06 pm

This might help, an RTO / OTP, Roll Turn Over, return crimp head is different than a BNXX series which are finishing heads for fold crimps with different depths for different burning speed powders.
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby eastcoastsoxfan » Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:48 pm

thanks lost
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby 3200 man » Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:29 pm

C M Wings

By you setting your drill stop to a Factory New Shell , you are not all the way down with the Gaep tool , as the inside of
the gaep tool (look in it ) , you'll see that it recesses the crimp farther in . Over all those 2 3/4 " shells should be finished at
( 2.778 " ) , which will dress them up to a better looking loaded shell .

Fellas that use a RTO head for finishing a crimped load hull , I don't believe they are getting the results of the Gaep tool ?
Why I'm saying this is because , The RTO head doesn't push the crimp into the hull as far as the Gaep tool , this doesn't
allow for a consistent compaction of the load , every time ?

Also , the cost difference between the RTO head and the Gaep tool is only a couple Bucks so , it depends whether you want
to RTO ( fold crimp ) or Gaep finish a crimped load for better performance / looking load .
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby C M Wings » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:15 pm

3200

Well..... Doesn't the lip on the finished shell have a lot to do with hull length?? While they are all supposed to be 70 mm, I know some are a little taller than others. So I set the gaep to conform to the top of the fold of a factory thinking that was the best way to get the proper top pressure. I have played around and made some deeper crimps, just not sure which way to go other than I guess consistently.

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby lostknife4 » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:33 pm

Larry I think you are a bit mixed up here, the RTO, or OTP as Gaep call it is for a roll crimp using an O/S card, the BNXX series is used for finishing the fold crimps and is available in different "depths", the BN4 seems to be the deepest and is used also for slow burning powders like ASteel.
These are samples of roll crimping ie RTO's, Roll Turn Over, using paper and frangible O/S cards: 28, 12, 10 and 8 ga.
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby 3200 man » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:55 pm

Lost

I see what you're saying of the RTO roll crimping tool , thinking the BN 4 Gaep allows more pressure to the shot ,wad and
powder to give it the same as the roll crimped load BUT , the GAEP tool does it on fold crimp loads ! My Gaep tools recesses
the fold crimp a little farther than RTO roll crimp loads , I've seen ?

Looking at C W Wings loads my thoughts were , his crimp start station is down a little to far and that's my reasoning for
the swirl in the finished crimps ?
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby UmatillaJeff » Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:29 pm

No.. 3200 man. You are missing it. Gaep sells finishing crimps like the ones that you and I own.

Gaep also sells Roll crimping heads which you can get readily here in the United States to use for roll crimping.

Roll crimping is an entirely different process and even more ludicrous then using a Gaep tool.

We used to roll crimp shells so we wouldn't mix them up. like buck shot loads and slugs.

All shells were roll crimped at one time and then they came up with a fold crimp shell.

Now people are roll crimping ammo for no reason whatsoever and they seem to think roll crimping is the second coming of Christ!

It's really quite funny. The conventional wisdom AGAINST roll crimping for many years was that the disk at the top left holes in the pattern. That was why many people who were on the fence in the early days went to the fold crimps.

They do not improve patterns or hurt patterns/ The do nothing except give LOST a reason to post pictures on duckhunters chat every time the topic comes up.

Fine pictures I might add LOST! Nice looking roll crimps!

As roll crimps go none look any better then Losts. I roll crimp my 8ga ammo as well lost as I do not own a fold crimp for the 8ga and the 8ga industrial cases are all roll crimped with that zinc slug and that is most of the cases we own.
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby slowshooter » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:05 am

Wait, no one gets better patterns with roll crimpin'?
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby 3200 man » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:56 am

From what I've seen , RTO tools do a wonderful job roll crimping and the Gaep tool is made for finishing a folded crimp

to look like factory ammo or better , as it improves consistency in ones loads ,shot after shot ,for better performance

with all different types of hulls . It's the tool for the job ! Not improvising one tool for the right tool ? :thumbsup:
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:40 am

A while back, 10gaOkie I think stated that roll crimping , with an O/S card, gives considerably more space inside the 2¾ hulls after crimping that permits 3" payloads in a 2¾ hull. Or something like that, which is true there is a lot more volume obtained using the O/S card and a roll crimp. IMHO I believe that the roll crimps are more consistent than fold crimps for several reasons, granted they add more labour to the loading process but I enjoy loading my ammo and have been doing so for over 50 years, both metallics and shotshells.
Lost

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby 3200 man » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:11 am

There is NO doubt Bill your roll crimped loads are picture perfect ( in all gauges ) and for us fold crimp guys , the only way
we can achieve the consistency YOU SEE is with a Gaep tool !

But , with the Gaep finishing tool , longer life in the hull is a benefit , right ?
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby UmatillaJeff » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:13 am

and..... Your roll crimps are beautiful! Jeff
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:39 am

3200 man wrote:There is NO doubt Bill your roll crimped loads are picture perfect ( in all gauges ) and for us fold crimp guys , the only way
we can achieve the consistency YOU SEE is with a Gaep tool !

But , with the Gaep finishing tool , longer life in the hull is a benefit , right ?


Thanks Larry but I have no data either confirming or denying case life benefits using a finishing tool, I use the finishing tools on my target and fold crimp game hunting ammo to try to get more consistent loading performance which it seems to do especially with hulls that have been loaded before but there comes a time that velocity is lost due to the breakdown of the plastic. Whether that rate of breakdown is directly related to the Gaep finishing tools I don't know, whether it happens faster with the Gaep tool I don't know either.

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby C M Wings » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:21 am

OK, OK... beautiful handiwork with ALL FORMS of crimping there, Lost...

Now how about a picture of what we REALLY want to see - that 8 bore gun of yours!

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:26 am

C M Wings wrote:OK, OK... beautiful handiwork with ALL FORMS of crimping there, Lost...

Now how about a picture of what we REALLY want to see - that 8 bore gun of yours!

Joe


It's a Remington Master Blaster

http://www.remington.com/products/ammun ... ystem.aspx

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby culot » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:28 pm

C M Wings wrote:I bought Kenner's BN4 GAEP12 gauge tool and here are the first four shells - Recipe 103 out of RSI manual.

The one in the back left corner - the one I'm holding in the one picture - I think is the best, but not nearly as nice looking as the ones y'all post! So... Any hints? Do I need to leave the pre-crimp open or closed? These were pre-crimped to where a #2 pencil eraser would fit in the opening. This produces nice crimps on my MEC. Figured I'd add a picture of the bench while i had the camera going.

I used a factory 2 3/4 shell to set the depth for the drill press. Pushed it over the shell until it stopped and locked it in place.

I think I will order a roll crimp tool this week seeing as how I'm all set up with the press now and play with it, too. Any recommendations?

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

Joe


Hi Joe,

You must get rid of that swirl in crimp, if not your crimper cant work properly.

Grease the crimptool with some white vaseline , thats protect the hulls .

I dont understand why you yankees dont use your gaep T 2-3-4 crimpers for rollcrimping like the italian does ??

I use my gaep T-2 special for rollcrimp with platsic disc and for rollcrimp my lyman 525 sabots , you may need a special

Tool for foster type slug or the paper hulls, but not for ordinairy hunting fold crimps and and rollcrimp loads.

/Peter
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby C M Wings » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:41 pm

Peter - I have tried raising the pre-crimp but with no effect on the swirl. What I did find is that if I leave the wad a little less than completely full I seem to get a better crimp, and less swirl. I will try some less viscous lube like Vaseline and see if that helps - I can see how it may.

Thanks, any other comments - glad to hear them.

Joe
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby culot » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:55 pm

C M Wings wrote:Peter - I have tried raising the pre-crimp but with no effect on the swirl. What I did find is that if I leave the wad a little less than completely full I seem to get a better crimp, and less swirl. I will try some less viscous lube like Vaseline and see if that helps - I can see how it may.

Thanks, any other comments - glad to hear them.

Joe


Joe,

Most italian run their crimp tool like in this video http://www.omv.it/pressa-smart-2/ but also like you do
using your MEC , i think you will have better result if you set the final station so loose you can without any taper.
and you may try just pre-crimp in mec and move it to crimp head i drill and run it down ( like in video )
yes ! he use new hulls , but good once fired hull should do well . and i think it's important you have enough space
down to wad and shot so you can work crimp down properly.
For me the " Gaep black hole " ended up in one one of these , so be careful :wink:
http://www.gaep.net/index.php?option=co ... &Itemid=56

ps: the little SMART press in bench drill do same job, but cost 1/3 of the VS-1000 press ..

/ Peter
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby culot » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:25 pm

rollcrimp T2special.JPG
I did this with the Gaep T2sp crimp tool, you don't
need a extra rollcrimp tool. but for best result use new non-skived hulls

/ Peter
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