Evolution vs. Intelligent Design vs. Creationism

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Postby bluewing77 » Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:43 pm

cannon wrote:Trust me, the arguments on this forum are EXACTLY what my 10 year post-graduate academic career were all about, and if I didn't appreciate the opinion of someone who is diametrically opposed to my point of view, I'd stay on the shotgun forum.


so what ya tryin to say about the shotgun forum?
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Postby PL_duckhunter12 » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:30 pm

i believe in God and trust what is sayed in the bible

for people that believe in the big bang(scientist and the like), even if the earth started that way, what made it explode and what put the little ball of matter in space? after this bang, what innitiated life and everything on this earth?
God
i don't believe everything could have been a coincidence

think about your favorite type of duck...... how could something that pretty just happen

http://www.audubon.org/news/pressroom/C ... _Eskin.jpg

http://www.alaskaduckhuntingguides.com/ ... 20Duck.jpg

http://www.ejphoto.com/images_of_the_mo ... Duck06.jpg

look at these and tell me how that could just happen
let 'em go, let 'em grow
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Postby Preacher1011 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:45 am

Oh no, we bumped this one again? Get ready to have us some controversy.
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Postby huntingdude16 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:30 am

look at these and tell me how that could just happen

Natural selection.

It didnt 'just happen'. It took a long time to develop those traits.
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Postby WisconsinWaterfowler » Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:06 am

Sorry but no amount of arguining will convince me that my favorite duck was not created by a higher being and that it evolved from a lizard.
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Postby huntingdude16 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:44 pm

Actually, the correct term is 'dinosaurs', not lizards. Dinosaurs were not lizards. Dinosaurs were.......dinosaurs.

One thing I noticed when people try to 'run down' evolution, such as this case, they will say lizard, instead of reptile. Also noticed people will say monkeys, instead of apes when refering to our origin?

Is this just a sad attempt to make evolution sound less credible? :huh:

As for not evolving from dinosaurs, ever notice the feet, and most of the legs of birds? Their covered in scales.

You know that wish bone thats broken at thanksgiving dinner? Theropod dinosaurs, such as velociraptor, also had wish bones.

A show on the Discovery channel was based on the topic of bringing dinosaurs back to life. They concluded that finding whole strands of DNA would be next to impossible, so they instead looked at manipulating chickens at a very young, embryotic stage. When they looked at the chicken embryo under a microscope, the embryo actually had many more tail vertebrae than an adult chicken, around 11 I believe. But as the embryo develops, these vertebrae fuse, and as an adult are only left with 3-4.
They also looked at the jaw of the chicken at the early embryotic stage, and actually found primitive teeth. Again, as the embryo develops, they disapear.
These features suggest a common ancestor with dinosaurs.

Look at the birds wing bones. The digits of the theropod's 3-fingered hands can still be found.

After you consider all of the similarities, you will find it is very possible for birds to have evolved from dinosaurs.


But I spose I just wasted my time..... :no:
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Postby WisconsinWaterfowler » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:50 pm

I spose you did. If I am wrong then Im wrong and nothing will happen when I die and you will be right and die right along with me. If I am right and you are wrong then well sorry bud we wont be in the same place. I am not trying to push my beliefs on you so dont try and push your beleifs on me.

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They both look like lizards to me. :thumbsup:
Just to let you know the meaning of dinosaur is terrible lizard.

To me these are scales.
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These are just rough feet with nasty skin.
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Postby jokoboy » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:47 am

So what your saying is that if you believe in evolution your not going to heaven? I happen to be believe in God and evolution so what does that make me? Evolution is a fact and a theory since scientist know that if you have a population of living creatures they will evolve over time but it is part theory because they don't know exactly how those changes come about. Can you explain why humans have a tail early on in our development? Just one step in our evolutionary path that we have crossed, walking without a tail.
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Postby David » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:49 am

Who would have thought that people would use religion to try and keep knowledge from advancing? :rolleyes: The earth is flat, the earth is the center of the universe, there is no evolution.

Now I'm not saying religion holds people back. I'm saying that people using the name of religion hold people back. Do you still believe that the earth is the center of the universe and all celestial bodies revolve around us as the church used to teach, then punish and damn to hell those that oppose? I doubt it. Just because someone believes in evolution, does not mean Jesus didn't die for his/her sins also.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:05 am

They are not mutually exclusive and most Christians believe that. That's the big rub for me.

The point of the bible is NOT a science book. Which version is the perfect American English translation of the original text, which doesn't even exist? The Bible is the word of God and not the words of God. It was translated by humans that make mistakes or have agendas. However, any mainstream translation will still provide you with the guidance from God, if you read it with an open mind.

The Earth and all that exists was NOT created in 144 hours (6 days of creation times 24 hrs/day). To believe otherwise requires a rejection of science. There is very little we can prove scientifically in regards to evolution, but we can without a doubt prove everything was not created in 144 hours unless of course God chose to mislead us.

Those that are it was just luck. You need to look at the microstructures of cells and not macrostructures of animals. I believe it takes far greater faith to believe that all of the incredibly complex microstructures within a cell evolved from random mutations. Even the simplest organism, has an incredibly complex cell structure in order to survive. The leap of faith to get from a soup of chemicals to this is as great as the faith in a higher being that guided the process. A process which violates no laws of physics and therefore can not be proven and can always be said to have just happened by pure random chance.

If some guy hit the lotto 23 times in a row. Would you believe that there is no higher power controlling the random bounce of the balls and it is just pure luck, if it could be proven he did not cheat? Maybe you can believe that, but I would never believe it. Of course that doesn't mean it is not true.

On the seventh day God rested. We are in the seventh day, which is why we do not see any evolution of new species and only adaption of existing species to the ever changing natural world. Prove me wrong!
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Postby jokoboy » Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:37 am

For many people of various faiths, support for the scientific theory of evolution has not supplanted their religious belief. And throughout the modern Judeo-Christian tradition, leaders have asserted that evolutionary science offers a valid perspective on the natural world. They say that evolution is consistent with religious doctrine and complements, rather than conflicts with, religion.

"Pope John Paul II stated that the conclusions reached by scientific disciplines cannot be in contradiction with divine Revelation, then proceeded to accept the scientific conclusion that evolution is a well-established theory".

There are, however, some Christians -- in particular, fundamentalists and some evangelicals -- who perceive a conflict between evolution and their literal interpretation of the Bible. Which, can be an issue since the bible says the universe was created in 6 days not 13.73 billion years. You can look at the Genesis story as a simple metaphor explaining the beginning but, if took word for word, it don't make much sense.
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Postby Skyblaster7 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:17 am

WisconsinWaterfowler wrote:I spose you did. If I am wrong then Im wrong and nothing will happen when I die and you will be right and die right along with me. If I am right and you are wrong then well sorry bud we wont be in the same place. I am not trying to push my beliefs on you so dont try and push your beleifs on me.

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They both look like lizards to me. :thumbsup:
Just to let you know the meaning of dinosaur is terrible lizard.

To me these are scales.
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These are just rough feet with nasty skin.
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:huh: Irregardless of your beliefs, those are scales on birds' feet. There are five different types of shape and pattern of scales that cover their feet and tarsi. Scutellate, reticulate, scutellate-reticulate, booted, and scutellate-booted.
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Postby WisconsinWaterfowler » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:55 am

Alright you win skyblaster you obviously know more about chicken feet than I do cause I dont have clue about what you are talking about. :rofl: Someone please point out where I said if you dont believe in evolution you are going to hell. SpinnerMan had a very good point and its very convincing look you guys I dont know if Im right or if you are right and we probably will never know who is exactly right on everything so...
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Postby jokoboy » Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:24 am

WisconsinWaterfowler wrote:I spose you did. If I am wrong then Im wrong and nothing will happen when I die and you will be right and die right along with me. If I am right and you are wrong then well sorry bud we wont be in the same place. I am not trying to push my beliefs on you so dont try and push your beleifs on me.


This is where i jumped in and kinda made the assumption that you were referring to heaven and hell in regards to evolution. Maybe I made a quick judgment. I was just asking a question in regards of what you said about not going to the same place.

So if one believes in evolution where do they go according to your views?
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Postby WisconsinWaterfowler » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:03 pm

I am a Chistain so I believe in John 3:16 and in my beliefs as long as you believe that Christ sacrificed himself for us it doesnt matter whether you believe in evolution or not sorry for not specifying that. I know a lot of you think I am nuts and you know what thats fine I respect your beliefs.
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Postby huntingdude16 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:06 pm

I spose you did. If I am wrong then Im wrong and nothing will happen when I die and you will be right and die right along with me. If I am right and you are wrong then well sorry bud we wont be in the same place. I am not trying to push my beliefs on you so dont try and push your beleifs on me.

You know what you meant. Your saying if your wrong nothing bad will happen to you and if I am wrong I will be going to hell.

Tell you what. When i'm dead and I see God, i'll believe. :thumbsup:

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They both look like lizards to me. :thumbsup:

Apparently you never took high school biology. If you did you would have learned about 'binomial nomenclature', the science of classifying animals.
The order of classification, from broadest to narrowist, goes like this:
Domain
Kingdom
Phylum
Class
Order
Family
Genus
Species

The triceratops you have pictured there was in the Class Sauropsida. The three-horned chameleon you have there is in the Class Reptilia.

'Lizard' is not a universal term for something with scales. It's in the Order Squamata, along with snakes, and lizards specifically make up the sub-order Lacertilia.
Take a read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizard
Look at the 'Evolution and relationships' section.

Just to let you know the meaning of dinosaur is terrible lizard.

I know that very well. The name Dinosaur was created by Sir Richard Owen. In Europe, remains of a huge animal were found, and based on the similarities in teeth and other features, Owen concluded the animal to be a huge, ancient iguana based on similarilites in the teeth(this animal is now known as Iguanodon, or 'iguana tooth'). Iguanas are lizards. Hence, he gave them the name 'terrible lizard'.
We know better today.



All that seems complicated. I spose I could just believe in God and not have to try to comprehend all of it. Ignorance is bliss.
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Postby jokoboy » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:37 pm

Well i don't think you are nuts just that I was a little mislead by your comment. I have nothing against religion or anything it just that some people take it different ways. I, for one hand, take the bible at stride and don't read it literally. Just that it can't be taken word for word, its got to be understood by the greater meanings that are with in it. I just see the Bible as a tool that was once used to control people. Which it was in the early years of the church, but as people began to realize that everything the bible says shouldn't be taken word for word, people started to emerge with a greater understanding of the world and began to solve problems logical and without a religious backing.

Hell, if there was no renascence out of the dark ages we would probably think the world was still flat. :rofl:
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Postby Skyblaster7 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:47 pm

jokoboy wrote:Hell, if there was no renascence out of the dark ages we would probably think the world was still flat. :rofl:


Wait, what? It's not??
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Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:20 pm

huntingdude16 wrote:All that seems complicated. I spose I could just believe in God and not have to try to comprehend all of it. Ignorance is bliss.
This statement shows your ignorance. A very strong belief in God is not rare in people with advanced science degrees. I have several Ph.D. biologists in my family and they are also Catholics.

It is the elitist liberal/progressive types that like to stereotype all people that believe in God as simpletons. It is the same reason they regard everybody that disagrees with them as simpletons. The simple progressive mind has not evolved to the point where it can stand to be challenged or debated and must therefore apply negative stereotypes as an excuse to not give serious consideration to opposing views. This was one of the major story lines in Obama's 2nd book.

There are of course fringe and even some not so fringe groups that believe things that are simply not true because that is how they interpret the Bible. There are far less of these than there where in the past because Christianity, especially Protestantism, allows the individual to challenge and question the church and the pastor's interpretation of the Bible. Along with a very strong valuing of education, which makes science and Christianity 100% compatible. Did you ever notice that many of the greatest educational institutions are Christian. Notre Dame (aka Our Mother, aka the Virgin Mary) doesn't just have a pretty good sports program.

Don't fall into false stereotypes. Christians are an incredibly diverse group that does include some real whack jobs, but mainstream Christians value education and science. Just like every other large group, the whack jobs are the ones that make the most noise and make everybody look bad.

For many evolution is the holy grail of their religion. They are just as much a zealot that there is not a God as the most fanatic religious zealot out there. They cannot accept that evolution is compatible with the existance of a God. They also believe far more is proven than actually has been.

Besides, how would things changes in the slightest if we proved that we did evolve from apes? Nothing.

Like I told a friend that was involved with the SETI search for extraterrestrial life. I absolutely believe there is life elsewhere, so what? He'd never even thought about the so what because he knows the laws of physics preclude even any real communication. We'll send a message and wait hundred or thousands of years to get a response :rofl:

I believe we probably did evolve from apes. So what? I'll concede the point. Tell me how it changes anything. It doesn't prove or disprove the existance of God.

It proves some people are wrong :eek: That's not exactly shocking. If you think you can convince everybody on the planet to accept even the most indisputable scientific facts, you are dreaming. The progressives believe in evolution as a religion, but they just can't seem to accept some of the most basic economic principles. We all have our quirks.

Obama is going to make us less dependent on foreign oil by taxing American oil companies. Now that is a true contradiction.
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Postby Preacher1011 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Here we go again. :no: Why this thread was resurrected, I don't know. It will all end in hurt feelings, and a bunch of pissed off grown men. Why we didn't let lying dogs lye is beyond me. All I know is what you believe is what you believe. No amount of bitching on here is going to change that. How about we let this one die?
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Postby David » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:20 pm

Preacher1011 wrote:Here we go again. :no: Why this thread was resurrected, I don't know. It will all end in hurt feelings, and a bunch of pissed off grown men. Why we didn't let lying dogs lye is beyond me. All I know is what you believe is what you believe. No amount of bitching on here is going to change that. How about we let this one die?


It's here because it's in the controversial issues forum. Some people like to debate and that's great. It helps spread ideas and information that others might not have known. And as a old Saturday morning cartoon used to say, "and knowledge is power!"
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Postby huntingdude16 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:45 pm

It will all end in hurt feelings, and a bunch of pissed off grown men.

Don't know about you but i'm getting a decent chuckle. :biggrin:

So far i've learned that birds don't have scales on their feet and dinosaurs are lizards. :thumbsup:


This statement shows your ignorance. A very strong belief in God is not rare in people with advanced science degrees. I have several Ph.D. biologists in my family and they are also Catholics.

I could bring up the trend of higher education showing a trend towards fewer believers. :wink:

But that would probably just get thrown in my face again that those are just 'smart dumb people'.

I can't win. :no:


Anyway, my comment was directed toward the 'my favorite duck could not have 'just happened'' comment, which is what I was arguing, which is why this topic was resurected in the first place. :wink:

Aside from that, you can not deny that there are a lot of Christians that don't believe in evolution.


As for Obama and progressives and such, can we PLEASE keep politics out of this topic?
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Postby Skyblaster7 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:33 pm

Birds do have scales! Gosh!
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Postby SpinnerMan » Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:36 am

huntingdude16 wrote:Aside from that, you can not deny that there are a lot of Christians that don't believe in evolution.
I cannot deny that there are a lot of Christians. Literally, millions upon millions.
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Postby huntingdude16 » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:13 pm

Do you deny that there are many Christians that don't believe in evolution?


Speaking of Christians....

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-Mohandas Gandhi
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