what to buy for the home

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what to buy for the home

Postby MossyGO! » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:48 pm

Having a hard time deciding which route to go. We don't have a pistol in the house, I want one but I don't have a shortie shotgun either. Looking between either a .40/.45 XD or one of these

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Postby caleb » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:27 pm

buy a 3-4" barrled 357 and put hot 38 loads in it. point and shoot, no safety to deal with in "the heat of battle" no loading issues, no limp wrist stove pipes.
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Postby bluelund79 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:51 pm

The wheel gun route will be good. I have an XD40 that I keep in the bedroom, nice gun to shoot and loves 2 different types of ammo since it gets scarce quick. If you have a duck gun at the house, save some cash and just buy a short barrel. I put a 18.5" barrel on one of my old express 870's and pulled the plug out. Some turkey sights, slip on Limbsaver, and a shotshell holder and now I have a budget home shotgun. Patterned the barrel with bird shot, buck shot, and slugs to see where it hits at different ranges that I would see in my house/yard. Good luck in your search, Eric
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Postby MossyGO! » Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:57 pm

I almost walked out with a shotgun at a local sporting goods store yesterday. Was an 870 tactical, pretty cool gun for $350 clearance but they only had the display(which was missing the sling swivel mount). Kind of wanted something to build and play around with.
The more I think about it, the .40 will probably suit my needs to have in the house and pack with me out in the woods.
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby mattm25tx » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:48 pm

MossyGO! wrote:Having a hard time deciding which route to go. We don't have a pistol in the house, I want one but I don't have a shortie shotgun either. Looking between either a .40/.45 XD or one of these

Image


Take the heat shield off and add a flashlight and you have what is under my bed, great for home defence and if the sound of a 12ga racking one in the chamber doesnt give them a heartattack you got 8 rounds to take care of the rest
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby cwbydavet » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:40 pm

12 gauge with #7 bird shot at close ranges will defeatly take down the bad guy but you dont have to worry about rounds going thru walls and hitting family members or neighbors and that distinct sound of that action and round will more then likely scare someone off
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby Dep6 » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:40 am

I have a 870 I won at a Delta banquet, it came with the 24 inch barrel and added an extension to it so it gives me 8 rounds to play wit!!
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby ajmorell » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:15 am

cwbydavet wrote:12 gauge with #7 bird shot at close ranges will defeatly take down the bad guy but you dont have to worry about rounds going thru walls and hitting family members or neighbors and that distinct sound of that action and round will more then likely scare someone off



#7 shot can't penetrate far enough to reach human vitals and therefore is useless as a defense round IMHO. I like your train of thought with regard to not penetrating the walls but in a home defense situation you don't want to risk just pissing someone off.


I'm a fan of the six-gun for home defense myself, I keep mine loaded with 158 SWC for home defense. They won't penetrate the walls without completely fragmenting but will effectively take a person down.
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby apexhunter » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:13 pm

ajmorell wrote:#7 shot can't penetrate far enough to reach human vitals and therefore is useless as a defense round IMHO. I like your train of thought with regard to not penetrating the walls but in a home defense situation you don't want to risk just pissing someone off.


Not trying to start an argument here but in home defense distances even the cheap promotional loads with 3 dr. pushing 1 oz of #7 shot will bore a grapefruit size hole into the vitals and to the spine of an intruder. Cwbydavet is absolutely correct as the average distance of home invasion shootings is under 12' and at that distance the pattern will still be small and the penetration is more than ample to destroy the innards of a thug. Plus, any stray shot will not penetrate through 2 layers of drywall so persons in adjoining rooms are relatively safe. The density of drywall and the affect of multiple layers of it on lead shot that small will render the shot inert as far as penetrating much further. In real testing I have seen #7 shot that was fired at 16' won't do much more than to barely push through a second layer of drywall (the back side of a typical inner wall) yet it tore hell out of ballistics gelatin and had more than enough penetration to be absolutely fatal.

On the other hand, buckshot or any single projectile (slug or centerfire bullet) has enough energy to pass completely through 2 inner walls plus an insulated exterior wall and have enough left in the tank to still do some damage to a person. I don't remember the man's name penned the phrase but the best quote I've ever heard is "you are ultimately responsible for the final resting place of any projectile you launch". Think about that when choosing a defense firearm- for the home or otherwise.
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby ajmorell » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:56 pm

Not going to start anything either, but you are wrong on the penetration of bird shot

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm
http://www.shadonet.com/2008/01/choosin ... e-defense/

If you are using birdshot for home defense you better aim for the head.
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby apexhunter » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:17 am

Your first post reinforced what I was saying about the bird shot in that stray pellets will not leave the room from which they were launched. The second post shows the penetration which is acceptable penetration into the vitals of an average person that is threatening me. While the post mentions FBI minimums for penetration, they base their minimums on the premise that a windshield may between the agent and his/her target and that is why their numbers are so high. As further evidence I have read and seen videos where Gunsite and other "tactical training facilities" recommend #7 bird shot for home defense scatterguns.

To reinforce the penetration ability of #7, a deer has the same if not higher body density as a human. I have witnessed a running deer being shot in the boiler room at around 20' with birdshot and it folded like a dish rag (she ran by a friend of mine during a late season dove hunt and paid the ultimate price- backstrap donation!)...and that distance is 60% more than the average home defense situation.

Simply put, if one isn't comfortable with #7 (which has been proven effective for home defense) they can simply step up in shot size...but they do so at the risk of others inside the house as larger shot can and will penetrate through more layers of drywall. I am all about effacacy in home defense ammo, but am also aware of the potential harm to others within the structure and choose my ammo very carefully...smaller bird shot, frangible or extreme expansion in handgun ammo, etc.
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby msmall » Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:05 am

Buy the pump shotgun .... just the sound of the slide being racked would be enough to make a smart intruder run like a scalded cat. And if theyre dumb enough to try you, then the shotgun will put em down quick enough.
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby sherlockbonez » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:01 am

Bucks #1 and up only for me. My hunting buddies band member took a point blank load of target shell to the bottom of both his forearm and lives to tell about it. Plays guitars today to boot. Those who think birdshots will work should test it out on a deer carcasse next season.
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby mp-willow » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:14 pm

Apexhunter: You said #7 lead shot. Well with Maine not allowing head for ducks, it is not in my gun. What are your thoughts on the alternivies. I like #6 for upland birds.

As for HD, for me a Coach gun :wink: Yes most will not like it, but that is what I like. If I need to move around, a wheel gun.
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby cwbydavet » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:17 pm

at 7 to 12 feet a shot in the vitals will kill anyone unless the are wearing armor or a head shot with it and there head will explode like a watermelon.now i am not saying at any real distance here.
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby sherlockbonez » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:19 am

What courses did you guys learn take that advised the use of bird shots for HD?
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby cwbydavet » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:36 pm

the guy who tought my ccw class said this and i have had several cop friends tell me this. the only reasion i say it is becouse of the penitration factor thru walls. if you really use your head and have shot guns enough you know how big the pattern is at 12 to 15 feet it is about the size of a grape fruit now if i shoot some idiot who breaks into my house in the chest or head at that range with birdshot they are going to be dead and if there is a stray pellet it is not going to go thru the wall and hit my kid or go thru the house and hit a neighbor. or if i shoot someone with my m4 and have a bullet pass thru where is it going to go becouse i am reasposible for it when it leaves the barrel.
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby swampwise » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:27 am

if you ask me, with a HD scattergun, smaller is better. i have several pistols i would choose from in a HD situation, but let's take an honest look at the HD shotty for a minute.

in reality, in a HD situation, penetration is the enemy. i'm not going to go into the numbers, mostly because i don't know them, but there is a crapload of energy in the hundred or so pellets of a #7 shell coming out of the muzzle of a shotgun at 1300 or so FPS. in fact, there is just as much energy in a 1 1/4oz. #7 load as there is in a 1 1/4oz. load of 00buck. the big difference is in what we hunters refer to as "knockdown power". it's true that 00buck would penetrate much further than #7, but the problem with penetration is that the energy in those 00 pellets is wasted in all of the things that it will hit after it passes through the badguy.

in a HD situation, ideally a defender should shoot to disable, and not necessarily to kill. think about it: do you really want to go through all of the court and lawyer shmuck that would be involved with killing someone? i don't think so. that being the case, penetration is not necessary, since it serves as a means to kill. the goal of penetration is to cause major damage to vital organs, which in turn, kills people.

now, back to the #7's. since those pellets don't penetrate through the body of the badguy, all of the energy that left the muzzle of your shotgun is going to be put toward stopping that badguy, most likely literally setting him on his behind. the pellets would basically turn into a massive gut punch, probably causing blunt force trauma to the organs, and some pretty substantial bleeding at the actual impact site of the round. what you have there is a more efficient way of stopping him, and a much better chance of avoiding a nasty court case.

not to mention, the sound a racking pump action makes is enough to run a sane intruder off anyway. has somebody already mentioned that on this thread already...?
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby sherlockbonez » Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:33 pm

OK, last start off by saying that everyone can use whatever load they are comfortable with to defend their home. I personally run either 00 or #1 buck if I can find them for HD. We use reduce recoil 00 for work.
Few reasons I would think twice about using target loads:

1) As I mentioned in my post, one of my hunting buddies band mate has took a load of birdshots point blank in the forearm and lives to play music. Not what you want if someone is running at you (even with a knife).

2) One of my buddy just got back from Afganastan and told storys of how birdshots where useless in shooting stray dogs in the camp. These dogs are sustantially smaller then most people.

3) Birdshot requires voluntary compliance (pain) to stop a threat, which is not ideal if the perp is high on adrenaline. Bucks will incapacitate a threat by breaking down the CNS/ cardiovascular structures.

4) As mentioned, if over penatration is a concern, reduce recoil bucks gives less power out the muzzel, tighter pattern which should help. I also have serveral "lanes" lined up in my house which I know should not hit the neighbour if I have to shoot. I live in an all brick house which should stop most lead shots, your mileage may vary. I understand if you live in hotter climates and houses are not built as heavily as for the "freeze ya butt off" weather we have up here. With reduce recoil bucks, you essentially have 8/9 rounds of 32 caliber musketballs going some where around 1090 fps, which is well shy of most pistol rounds.

Everyone that I know who are issued a shotgun for duty (myself included) are also issued bucks for their gun. Accountability in a court is the same for everyone.
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby cwbydavet » Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:04 pm

sherlockbonez you must be in law inforcement the main reasion i even said bird shot is becouse it wont penatrate walls if you have the training use what ever works or if you are ready for the consequences if you miss or get a pass thru.personally i have a m-4 for my home defense gun when i am home and a rem 870 with an 18 inch barrel for my wife loaded with bird shot.people blew things way out of the water here lol there are numerous training places that recomend bird shot if ou are not going to train with the gun alot. use what you feel most comfortable with for yourself.
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby MM » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:09 am

swampwise wrote:in a HD situation, ideally a defender should shoot to disable, and not necessarily to kill. think about it: do you really want to go through all of the court and lawyer shmuck that would be involved with killing someone? i don't think so. that being the case, penetration is not necessary, since it serves as a means to kill. the goal of penetration is to cause major damage to vital organs, which in turn, kills people.


Disagree 100%. If someone is in your home you shoot to kill. Do you really want some crook to take you to court after they heal? No way! If you kill someone to protect yourself or family it is legal. You never read about the family of a person winning a court case because their son, brother, etc... was killed. You see crooks win cases after they heal though, disablility or whatever. :no:

Police shoot to kill. Military shoot to kill. I shoot to kill. :sniper:
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby La. Hunter » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:12 am

MM,

You can shoot to kill all day long, but when you are on the stand I would recommend telling the judge and jury that you shot to stop the threat.
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby sherlockbonez » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:45 pm

Shoot to "incapacitate", dying is just an unforturnate result.
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby cwbydavet » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:36 pm

shoot for center mass being whatever is center that you can see chest,head,groin thet will all go down with a shot to them areas
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Re: what to buy for the home

Postby GroundSwatter » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:22 pm

I have an XD 45 that holds 13+1. I'm certain it will kill whatever I aim at. Plus when shooting a 45, if your bullet somehow fails to expand, it doesn't matter. Still enough force there to drop them. Also, since you don't have to shoot +p loads, your practice rounds and defense rounds will shoot about the same.

Shotgun is a good choice. I personally wouldn't use 7 shot, #4 shot or #6 hevi-shot would be about the smallest I would go. Still not a great knock down round. No matter what, if you have errand shot, #7 or bigger, you're going to chance penetrating a wall. I would use some form of buck shot with a dedicated defense shotgun.
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