FairTax discussion

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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:54 pm

Dustin07 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:This ought to shed some light on this subject.
Former Comptroller General to the United States (head accountant),
Non-profit organization to educate Americans.....

http://www.pgpf.org/resources/PGPFCitizensGuide.pdf



WE CAN turn those numbers around. I know we can. :thumbsup:


Yes, I agree...we can. But it's bigger than whether or not we change the tax code.... we have to change the monetary system in this country from one of debt to a sound currency. Or we will be controlled by the international banking elite and our national interests will fall to the way side for their profits..

Did you watch the I.O.U.S.A. video? It explains a lot...
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Just Ed » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:28 pm

Smackaduck wrote:I hate to change the subject but how does one go about getting 87 percent of their taxes back at the end of the year, or did I misread that. Cause I got way less than that.


You didn't misread it....one goes about doing it by taking advantage of tax breaks like 401(k) plans, §125 Cafeteria Plans, home mortgage interest deductions, etc., etc. The Government taxes you based on your ADJUSTED gross income...not on your gross wages. Take advantage of the tax breaks. I'm single with no kids....it's not that difficult.

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jrockncash wrote::lol: Man I hope that job pays good because it sounds like a big bag of gay to me.


What's gay is bending over and getting screwed by the government because you don't understand where YOUR money is going :hammer:
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby jrockncash » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:33 pm

I hear you buddy. You wanna do my taxes next year? :lol3: Those commie bastards at H&R block got me this year.
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Smackaduck » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:24 pm

This seems dumb to me cause I havent the foggiest but how is 2391 80 plus percent.
If they're dumb enough to be lured in by plastic you're really just doing them a favor.

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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Dustin07 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:14 am

Ed,

Say you have a $100 transaction and per Dustin's example 22% of that includes Federal Tax (embedded cost). Currently, that also includes an embedded cost to the business of .00471 % Washington B & O Tax.

When that item is sold currently, the consumer pays another 8% on sales tax ($8) for a total cost of $108 at retail and the business would owe an additional $.51 on the transaction for B & O Tax.

Under the FairTax plan, let's eliminate that Federal Income tax so the transaction is $88. In this case, $88 goes to the retailer, the consumer pays $7.04 in sales tax, $26.40 in Federal sales tax (FairTax) for a total cost to the consumer of $121.44. Since the B & O tax is based on gross receipts, the retailer will need to pay $.57 on that transaction....thus increasing the cost of that product by 11% with relation to the gross receipts tax. If that item is sold in a local jurisdiction that also has B & O (Burien, SeaTac, etc.) then that cost goes up there as well.


You started with an $88 item after eliminating the federal income tax. are you referring to the 22% embedded tax on the $100 item? if so we'd have to start at $78 ($100-22%)... $78 item plus the 23% inclusive fair tax puts the item at $101.29. ($.477 B&O).

unless I'm missing something, which I could be!!

You are right, in Washington we have a sales tax, and it's higher than your example. But I have that now no matter what I pay, and in addition to both my income tax and embedded taxes.

and in regards to items used by manufactures, that is a question i'm still trying to sort the details on because in many ways, you are describing a VAT.[/quote]

You didn't reply to this. If you are certain the FairTax will result in higher costs of living, lets settle this. please clear it up for me if you disagree with these numbers.


Just Ed wrote:
I'm a tax guy....not an accountant...there's a difference :smile:


the difference being accountants make mistakes! LOL, just kidding :hammer:

jrockncash wrote::lol: Man I hope that job pays good because it sounds like a big bag of gay to me.


LOL I've heard of FAR worse jobs.
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby NHDuckHunter » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:50 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
The average American will in some way shape or form pay the average amount that the government spends.

.

:lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
Bravo, bravo!! OMG, I just fell out of my chair, THAT right there is the funniest thing I have ever read on this site. OMG. :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

That's great, really great...



Oh wait, wait.... you don't really beleive that do you? You don't believe that the "average" person pays an "average" amount of taxes do you??? No, seriously, you were kidding right?
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby NHDuckHunter » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:52 am

Dustin07 wrote: The difference is that the illegal immigrants, drug dealers, and tax evasionists will finally start paying their piece of the pie.


So people who have made a living by breaking the law, are suddenly going to start following the law? Makes sense to me :no: :no:
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Dustin07 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:44 am

NHDuckHunter wrote:
Dustin07 wrote: The difference is that the illegal immigrants, drug dealers, and tax evasionists will finally start paying their piece of the pie.


So people who have made a living by breaking the law, are suddenly going to start following the law? Makes sense to me :no: :no:


The people who you are talking about, breaking the law, still buy things like clothes, groceries, cars, gas, etc. Pimps need big feathers and prostitutes need high heels. Drug dealers need there gatz, blades, dubs, and thumbs subs. These things are purchased (of course not always) but typically at a retail level. Especially groceries and clothes. Those items would then pay the taxes these law breakers currently do not pay via income taxes.
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Dustin07 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:56 am

Just Ed wrote:
Smackaduck wrote:I hate to change the subject but how does one go about getting 87 percent of their taxes back at the end of the year, or did I misread that. Cause I got way less than that.


You didn't misread it....one goes about doing it by taking advantage of tax breaks like 401(k) plans, §125 Cafeteria Plans, home mortgage interest deductions, etc., etc. The Government taxes you based on your ADJUSTED gross income...not on your gross wages. Take advantage of the tax breaks. I'm single with no kids....it's not that difficult.

jrockncash wrote::lol: Man I hope that job pays good because it sounds like a big bag of gay to me.


What's gay is bending over and getting screwed by the government because you don't understand where YOUR money is going :hammer:


also Ed, those are are not great examples. on the 401 (k) are you counting tax Deferred contributions? And on the mortgage interest write off, that's the biggest scam in our whole country! How many people believe that when the make $xx money that they need to borrow more to get that oh-so-wonderful write off before they realize that the interest they are paying is FAR more than the taxes they are paying?

Under the fairtax you won't get a mortgage write off because there wont' be an income tax to deduct from. However, the COST of your mortgage will go down because banks too have embedded costs.

Like I said before, the current tax system rewards BAD behavior, such as debt (your mortgage interest. Yes I have a mortgage too, but we shouldn't be rewarded for our debt, look at our economy. Banks like to show folks how much they can afford based upon their mortgage write off.).
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Dustin07 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:27 am

Also Ed,

to touch your mortgage deductions again, what about the MILLIONS that are city dwellers who will never see a mortgage deduction? That is biased tax favoratism.

And in order to pay our taxes we should NOT have to HIRE someone to do it for us! And even those who are hired make tons of mistakes. The tax code should not require a degree just so people can comply!!

This year's confusion special is the "Recovery Rebate Credit," found on line 70 of the 1040, line 42 of the 1040A and line 9 of the 1040EZ. Early in the filing season, the IRS estimated an astounding 15% of taxpayers were making mistakes on this item. Even in March, after warnings by the IRS, 7% of taxpayers were still getting it wrong.


http://finance.yahoo.com/taxes/article/ ... ebate-Redo
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Just Ed » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:07 pm

I don't hire anyone to do my taxes. In fact, nobody I work with hires anyone to do their taxes. Nobody in my family hires anyone to do their taxes (and they know I won't do it) Imagine that!

....and I'm really surprised by your faith in other companies to lower their prices because they won't have that "embedded cost" anymore....the embedded costs (as I previously mentioned) of the kids that sew your clothes and shoes together in other countries (that don't pay U.S. income taxes) and the embedded costs of all those items you buy with the "made in China, assembled in Mexico, etc." stickers on them....yep...hold your breath - those prices will be going down because they STILL won't be paying U.S. wages to manufacture those products and those employees STILL won't be paying income tax in the U.S. because they STILL won't live here. :lol3:

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one....and in the meantime, I'll continue to pay to educate other people's kids through the property taxes on my home (whether there is a "FairTax" or not)....which I bought because rent was about the same price as a mortgage payment, and at the time I wasn't paying rent I didn't have an interest deduction, or a property tax deduction, and the government didn't put those deductions in place to influence my behavior with relation to purchasing a home, even though buying that home on a loan and going into debt was "bad behavior"
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Dustin07 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:30 pm

That's all good and well but you gave me an example of why the FairTax wouldn't work. I showed you that your math was wrong, and you have not readjusted. to simply disagree on theories is one thing, but to not back up bad math does not prove anything.

I'm glad you're so very happy with your life and your family, but that does not change that the majority of American's are screwed by the current tax system and that report I just posted proved how screwed up it really is. 15% reporting incorrectly? We don't even know that you and your family are doing your taxes correctly. You think you are.... but those 15% did too. So did Obama's entire cabinet who we found owe taxes. Same with the chairman of the tax committee who last year found out he under paid on his taxes.

If you want to disagree that's fine. But you are building an untrue arguement against a major tax reform that could completely change the national and global landscape for business. So if you're going to sabbotage the efforts, make sure that a socialist lifestyle is worth it.
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Dustin07 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:38 pm

Just Ed wrote:....and I'm really surprised by your faith in other companies to lower their prices because they won't have that "embedded cost" anymore....the embedded costs (as I previously mentioned) of the kids that sew your clothes and shoes together in other countries (that don't pay U.S. income taxes) and the embedded costs of all those items you buy with the "made in China, assembled in Mexico, etc." stickers on them....yep...hold your breath - those prices will be going down because they STILL won't be paying U.S. wages to manufacture those products and those employees STILL won't be paying income tax in the U.S. because they STILL won't live here. :lol3:



a. especially during a recession, lower costs are an excellent reason to lower resell. MOST companies survive by beating their competitors in price.

-------If you don't believe me, think about how xBox, Wii, and PS3 all constantly get into price wars. Think about how large companies (think about Daimler-Chryslers 22% tax savings by moving to germany) are affected by the tiniest change in tax code and how they find their tax savings immediately and how if xBox's could be sold at 22% less without a decrease in profit Microsoft would JUMP on that opportunity for the sake of boosting sales.

b. by changing the tax landscape those off shores manufacturers will be encouraged to RETURN to America. Remember the Daimler-Chrysler vs Chrysler-Daimler example I gave you??

c. even products which are imported carry embedded taxes in them.
-------The Americans on the Transport boat from China to America pay income tax.
-------The Americans on at customs pay import taxes
-------The American's working for UPS, FedEx, DHL, and other delivery companies who take these products to distribution centers pay income taxes.
-------The Americans who work for the distribution centers... either in the warehouse, or sales, marketing, purchasing... they all pay income taxes.
-------The American's who support those distribution centers, utilities companies, real estate companies, office supplies companies... They all pay income tax :hammer:
-------The transport companies who deliver the product from the distribution centers to the retail centers... more income tax
-------The Employees at those retail centers? More income tax! Their office supplies, carpet, lights, cash registers, all affected by income tax.


Even your import goods are affected.
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Just Ed » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:57 pm

I'm glad your a tax expert Dustin....what did you say you and your Dad do in your business?

You want to compare prices......click on this web site.

http://www.mec.ca/Main/home.jsp;jsessionid=XdkLJGpV4Nv59GTL2dGxhD4GVLCwX3sjYTTpcbJyWSpGqdnsGvGV!-1873186570?bmForm=splash&bmFormID=1237589589760&bmSubmit=english&bmUID=1237589589760

This is the Canadian Version of REI. Feel free to compare prices by clicking on the price in U.S. dollars....keep in mind Canada has the same tax system you are proposing. Do you see much of a difference? Is it 22%?

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one....transaction taxes are my profession. It's what I do for a living...it's what I've done for the last 18 years. This is a bad idea but if you want to sell it, go for it.....I like job security :thumbsup:
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Dustin07 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:12 pm

Just Ed wrote:I'm glad your a tax expert Dustin....what did you say you and your Dad do in your business?

You want to compare prices......click on this web site.

http://www.mec.ca/Main/home.jsp;jsessionid=XdkLJGpV4Nv59GTL2dGxhD4GVLCwX3sjYTTpcbJyWSpGqdnsGvGV!-1873186570?bmForm=splash&bmFormID=1237589589760&bmSubmit=english&bmUID=1237589589760

This is the Canadian Version of REI. Feel free to compare prices by clicking on the price in U.S. dollars....keep in mind Canada has the same tax system you are proposing. Do you see much of a difference? Is it 22%?

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one....transaction taxes are my profession. It's what I do for a living...it's what I've done for the last 18 years. This is a bad idea but if you want to sell it, go for it.....I like job security :thumbsup:



well you better look for another job. I'm not a tax expert, but as far as I know, Canada has a VAT, Value Added Tax, which is DIFFERENT from the FairTax. In our FairTax system, tax is not added at each time value is added to an item, ONLY ONCE at the retail level. You failed to recognize this earlier, and you're still not seeing it, I think it's for a lack of FairTax research. I can now see why you thought manufacturers would be tacking on hidden or 'embedded taxes' each step of the way, you were comparing the FairTax to the VAT, which it is not.

Also, I pointed out your math flaw earlier and you still fail to reassess. You may want to reconsider having someone else do your taxes.

I don't mean to be rude, but you came out and attacked the fair tax bill as being a 'horrible idea'. You inaccurately described it in many ways that I have refuted and you were not able to prove me wrong.

The point of the discussion is to really assess what we have here. I asked you sincerely, to evaluate the numbers you provided, and the numbers I corrected them with and you didn't. That makes me think that you agree with me that the fairtax works.

Perhaps the FairTax scares you because your job relies upon income tax?

either way, I never meant to create a negative atmosphere, but the things that you seem to dislike about the FairTax have all been wrong.
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Dustin07 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:18 pm

I'll be 100% honest, I'm not sure how to accurately compare Canadian prices to US prices anyways as far as taxes go.

The Brunton Fuel Tool is $13.50 CAD on the Canadian REI you posted, or $13.95USD in the American REI. But if you figure our USD value on the CAD, purchasing the Canadian Unit is only $10.88. So I guess I'd save about 22% ironically... but off the top of my head i'm not sure how that would play out with currency differences in value.
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Dustin07 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:22 pm

Dustin07 wrote:I'll be 100% honest, I'm not sure how to accurately compare Canadian prices to US prices anyways as far as taxes go.

The Brunton Fuel Tool is $13.50 CAD on the Canadian REI you posted, or $13.95USD in the American REI. But if you figure our USD value on the CAD, purchasing the Canadian Unit is only $10.88. So I guess I'd save about 22% ironically... but off the top of my head i'm not sure how that would play out with currency differences in value.



actually, I am genuinely wondering why this is? The Brunton tool is Japanese made, so the VAT would not apply here, at least not in a manufacturing aspect. So the product is imported, as you pointed out earlier such as those shoes, and is income tax free, and sells for 22% lower USD? I really don't see how it could be that simple so i must be missing something.
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Just Ed » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:47 pm

OK Dustin....this will be my last post on the topic. I'm tired of this. Here's the deal....let me sum up.

There are more taxes than income tax. So much so that a complete elimination of the Federal Income tax will have no impact on taxes. If you do your research, you'll find that there are many states in the union that do not have an income tax...those states include Texas and Florida. If you do your research, you'll find that because there is no income tax, there is a high rate of property taxes in those locations (folks that retire in Florida don't have an income so there is no point trying to tax their income). Here in Colorado, it is illegal to tax a person at the local level based on their income. Guess what, the City and County of Denver and the City of Aurora passed a "head tax" to get around this so that everyone is taxed a flat rate no matter what their wages are. You may call that fair but as a tax guy, I call that as a way to get around an established system.

Business 101 will tell you that the #1 priority of any company is to maximize shareholder wealth. It would be great if every company had a social agenda and priced the products they sell at reasonable prices because it helps other people out. This is not the case (at least not in our business environment). A company will do anything it can to maximize shareholder wealth - including keeping prices at a high level. In your example of video game players, do you really think the cost of production has gone down and that's why prices have gone down? Do you really think that it's because of a price war between the Wii and the xBox? It's not....take an economics class and learn about a person's marginal propensity to save and marginal propensity to consume. You might also visit on the concept of "cash cows". There's a reason why Croc's shoes were in style and made a ton of money....and why their auditors recently announced there is a concern of the company's future existence. A company is not going to sell a product that it will not make a profit on (unless it's a regulated public utility). Prices are initially high because of the recognition that people feel they "need" that item - not because that's what it costs to make the item. You don't believe me? Take a look at the price of an AR-15 last June and the price of an AR-15 today. Do you really think production costs went up that much in the last 9 months or do you think the price went up because folks are afraid the current administration is going to ban assault weapons? It's capitalism....it's what business is based on in this country.

What the FairTax does is plain and simple. It charges folks a flat rate of tax, based on what they buy, of 30%. You haven't told me yet what your effective tax rate is. Is it more than 30%? The two top tax tiers currently are 33% and 35%. That's based on an ADJUSTED gross income of $164,550 if your single (more if your married).

see page 13 http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040tt.pdf

I currently pay 13% in income tax as a rate and I make more than the average household income in the U.S. I have NO desire to pay 17% more in tax - and again, don't give me this crap about how prices are going to magically drop by 22%.

You have an aging population. The majority of the country will be of retirement age very soon. These folks have IRA accounts and Social Security - the majority of them won't have an income tax to pay. If you insist on taxing them at 30% on based on their spending habits, you are going to send them into poverty. Have you received your social security estimate? I have.....my benefit will be $1,900/month when I retire. When I retire I won't have a need to save any money - I will be dead within the next 20 years. What you are doing with a FairTax is basically stripping my income to $1,330 per month. Can you live on that? I can't. Are you ready to support your Dad? When I think about that I think of AARP lobbyists going to town in Washington - you aren't going to win (and for good reason).

Taxes influence behavior. You may not realize this. Do you know why tax rates are different for married couples than for individuals? Do you know why there are tax breaks if you have kids? It's because the U.S. has a vested interest in having a large population of people. People = productivity = power. It's a simple fact of economics - any economics professor can explain this to you. Do you know why the tax on cigarettes and alcohol is so high? Because the country has a vested interest in having a healthy population. They are trying to dissuade people from participating in the habits....rather than make it illegal and create a black market, they tax the heck out of the items and make it inconvenient. A flat 30% tax does not influence behavior - the nation's leaders cannot influence the population in the best interest of the nation.

You appear to have a good interest in taxation. If that's the case, then pursue the career and learn how taxes work. At the minimum, learn how to prepare your own tax return and learn how all the tax forms flow up to the 1040. ....and Canada's VAT tax - is the very same thing as your "fair tax". It's a transaction based tax based on consumption. Call it whatever you want - that's exactly what it is. If you'd do some research on Quebec and their provincial problems with the Federal Government of Canada, you'll see what problems can occur and that it's not a "cure all".

I agree with tax reform...but the FairTax or any "Flat Tax" disguised with a fancy name is not the answer in a country where you have a system of government like we do. You might also want to look into "Home Rule Cities" in your research with relation to Colorado and Louisiana and how they both have cities making independent laws (tax or otherwise). As I said....it's a very bad idea (at least in this country).

Good luck.
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby SpinnerMan » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:30 am

Ed,

I haven't followed the thread, but one point you are missing in your last post is the hidden taxes that you pay. You are paying a lot more taxes than the taxes you owe line on your 1040. The fair tax is about as good a scheme as could be devised, but we are in the middle of the game and radically changing the rules would be practically impossible and likely cause huge dislocations to the economy. However, if enacted as described, the total amount of taxes that you pay would likely be exactly the same when you add the taxes you pay directly and those you pay indirectly. Your effective tax rate would be the same if the government spends the same. The fair tax would also cover the medicare and social security including the matching, which I'm pretty sure you are not including in your tax rate.

BTW, I paid 38% of my income to the governments (Federal, state, and local) and that still does not include the embedded taxes that are collected from the products I buy to pay the corporate taxes, fees, etc.

The average American pays the average amount spent by the government. If you really are only paying 17% to the Federal government, you are way below average and must be young. You will get to average someday and be forking over a much larger fraction of your money. However, the government will do it's best to hide how much it is really taking from you. That's why we shouldn't get caught up too much in the tax code. Simpler is better is what we should push for. Take the budget and divide it by the number of people. That is what you will pay both directly and indirectly if you are an average guy.

Ed
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Re: FairTax discussion

Postby Dustin07 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:31 am

I hate to sound rude and offensive but the only reason I can find that Ed does not like the FairTax is it may eliminate his job, or hinder it, and he doens't like change. I don't wish harm upon anyone but:


Ed's numbers were wrong when he adjusted the very first item for fairtax, and he never adjusted them.

Ed never addressed the fact that is supposed 13% effective tax rate is hidding rediculous mortgage interest, and it includes tax DEFFERRED 401K plans, plus his cafeteria plan. None of these things came without a cost.

Ed also gave me the example of REI Canada. He incorrectly comparred the FairTAx to the VAT, but when I showed him that even the VAT gave Americans a 22% discount on embedded costs, he refused to address that as well. I mean it doesn't get any clearer than taking USD to a less taxed country and finding out what that money can do under a different tax structure.


Convenient that he leaves one last broad reply and makes it a point to unsubscribe to the thread without actually addressing any of the details he found to be wrong with the FairTax



Also, ED........ Enjoy your Social Security while it lasts. If the rest of us get the FairTax passed you'll still have a revenue stream for the SS you want. If not, it will begin phasing out on you and my dad, and my kids won't see it.



and one last item he refused to address.... I showed you an example where gaming units could possibly be dropped 22% without making a single change to manufacturer profit, and you replied with a rediculous post about how game manufacturers have to serve shareholders and wouldn't dream of dropping profits. Have you read a single post I've made?


ON the flip side, your arguments have made me realize that the FairTax truly is as good as it seems. Thanks for the increased motivation :thumbsup: You will benifit from it just like the next American. :beer:
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