Hey guys. Just joined the forum and have been reading for the past hour. Great info here! I have my grandpa's old Model 11. I'm not sure of the year, but it's an older one because it has the safety in front of the trigger inside the guard. The barrel is original and it's a modified choke. Do y'all think I'd be ok shooting steel out of this? It wouldn't be my primary gun but I'd use it as a backup. I read an old thread here on the subject but the guy had a Full choke model. Any advice is appreciated!
nativetexan
Hi Tex, and welcome to DHC!
Here's what I can tell you about your gun. To my knowledge, the Model 11 was discontinued in 1948 with the introduction of the 11-48. Remington states that it is safe to shoot steel through any of their guns built after 1950 with any choke modified or more open. That would make it seem that your gun shouldn't be able to shoot steel. But, there's more. CIP (who's regulations have no bearing on American Guns) has a recommendation for shooting steel through older guns in rather dubious condition. Basically, they state that if you keep the load to 1 1/8oz or less, the muzzle velocity to 1400fps or below, the shot size to US #4 or smaller and the choke to modified or more open, you shouldn't have any problems. The one thing about that charge weight and muzzle velocity is that you have a little leeway. CIP's actual recommendation is stated as the momentum, or the charge weight multiplied by the velocity. Furthermore, the velocity is measured at some 2.5 meters. Boiling CIP all down, here's my take. Your gun is probably a 2 3/4inch gun, so if you use the Remington Nitrosteel 1 1/4oz, 1350fps loads, you shouldn't have any problems. Given that your gun was built to a much tough standard that the guns CIP is talking about, you could probably increase the pellet size a bit. You should have no trouble shooting #3 steel, whatsoever.
Tom Roster has published that you can shoot modern steel through any shotgun, regardless of choke, provided that the gun is in good condition. He bases this on the fact that some 15 or 20 years ago he developed and patented a wad that provided protection against barrel damage. The one caveat is that in come cases, the barrel can develop a bulge right behind the choke area. This bulge is completely cosmetic and will not effect the gun's performance, nor will it be of any danger.
That's the published part, now here's the personal experience part. I had a friend of mine that inherited a Model 11 from an old duck hunter when he passed on. My friend used that gun for years shooting 1 1/4oz steel #2s at 1350fps and steel #1s for geese. He finally retired the gun two years ago because it just wore out (he and the gun's previous owner did a lot of waterfowling.) My friend was also not the most religious when it came to cleaning and maintenance. If the gun went bang and cycled when he pulled the trigger, he was happy. But, I can tell you for a fact, that gun, after a steady diet of steel loads, had no changes to the barrel. No walnut, no scoring, and no wearing at the choke as far as we could see.
So that's about it. If it were me, I'd shoot 1 1/4oz of #3s at 1300 to 1400fps and never look back. But it's a decision that only you can make. Hope this helps some.
Frank
Here's what I can tell you about your gun. To my knowledge, the Model 11 was discontinued in 1948 with the introduction of the 11-48. Remington states that it is safe to shoot steel through any of their guns built after 1950 with any choke modified or more open. That would make it seem that your gun shouldn't be able to shoot steel. But, there's more. CIP (who's regulations have no bearing on American Guns) has a recommendation for shooting steel through older guns in rather dubious condition. Basically, they state that if you keep the load to 1 1/8oz or less, the muzzle velocity to 1400fps or below, the shot size to US #4 or smaller and the choke to modified or more open, you shouldn't have any problems. The one thing about that charge weight and muzzle velocity is that you have a little leeway. CIP's actual recommendation is stated as the momentum, or the charge weight multiplied by the velocity. Furthermore, the velocity is measured at some 2.5 meters. Boiling CIP all down, here's my take. Your gun is probably a 2 3/4inch gun, so if you use the Remington Nitrosteel 1 1/4oz, 1350fps loads, you shouldn't have any problems. Given that your gun was built to a much tough standard that the guns CIP is talking about, you could probably increase the pellet size a bit. You should have no trouble shooting #3 steel, whatsoever.
Tom Roster has published that you can shoot modern steel through any shotgun, regardless of choke, provided that the gun is in good condition. He bases this on the fact that some 15 or 20 years ago he developed and patented a wad that provided protection against barrel damage. The one caveat is that in come cases, the barrel can develop a bulge right behind the choke area. This bulge is completely cosmetic and will not effect the gun's performance, nor will it be of any danger.
That's the published part, now here's the personal experience part. I had a friend of mine that inherited a Model 11 from an old duck hunter when he passed on. My friend used that gun for years shooting 1 1/4oz steel #2s at 1350fps and steel #1s for geese. He finally retired the gun two years ago because it just wore out (he and the gun's previous owner did a lot of waterfowling.) My friend was also not the most religious when it came to cleaning and maintenance. If the gun went bang and cycled when he pulled the trigger, he was happy. But, I can tell you for a fact, that gun, after a steady diet of steel loads, had no changes to the barrel. No walnut, no scoring, and no wearing at the choke as far as we could see.
So that's about it. If it were me, I'd shoot 1 1/4oz of #3s at 1300 to 1400fps and never look back. But it's a decision that only you can make. Hope this helps some.
Frank
As one who is fond of older shotguns I must present the probability that the shotgun you mentioned was manufactured between 1905 and 1947. An older one indeed. Seek the advisement of a true gunsmith rather than wasting time here. I own an original Winchester, Model '97 that was manufactured in 1901 and would never so much as begin to entertain any ideas of firing steel shot of any size from a firearm manufactured so long before the advent of non-toxic shot for waterfowl made mandatory by federal edict, let alone any 2 3/4"cartridge having velocity greater than the lowest of field loads in commercial production nowadays.
Z51 made an excellent comment in paying attention to what the original manufacturer recommends. You have a very fine shotgun in your possession and as such you may do with it as you will.
Z51 made an excellent comment in paying attention to what the original manufacturer recommends. You have a very fine shotgun in your possession and as such you may do with it as you will.
Gentlemen,
since the Steel shot is encased in the plastic wad until it leaves the barrel, does it ever contact the barrel?
So how would the steel shot make any difference?
Realizing that my M11 was made in 1938 and may not be able to handle heavy loads (or it may), as long as we use 2-1/2" loads in a 2-3/4" chamber or other lighter loads, the metal in the shot should be irrelevant?
But then what do I know?
since the Steel shot is encased in the plastic wad until it leaves the barrel, does it ever contact the barrel?
So how would the steel shot make any difference?
Realizing that my M11 was made in 1938 and may not be able to handle heavy loads (or it may), as long as we use 2-1/2" loads in a 2-3/4" chamber or other lighter loads, the metal in the shot should be irrelevant?
But then what do I know?
I have a Model 11 made in 1939. It's a 16 gauge. I have put cases of steel through it with no problem. I reload my own steel so I can taylor the velocity and pellet size to my liking. It's your gun but, I wouldn't think twice about shooting #4's through it.
Not that I'm going to use heavy loads in my M11,
if you measure the wad of a Winchester super X (high brass) 1 OZ #3 steel shot, it is 0.625" OD,
the ID of the muzzle on my full choke M-11 is 0.595"
which might indicate that the wad gets slowed down by the choke, letting the shot leave the wad before the wad leaves the barrel, possibly causing the steel shot to do 'something' as it exits the end of the barrel.
measuring the wad of a Remington shurshot heavy dove (short brass) 1 OZ #6 lead shot, it is 0.605" OD
Since I've never measured wads or choked muzzles before today, I have no idea if any of this is really relevant.
a Rabi once commented that "if you can't read Hebrew, you should avoid quoting the book of Moses to prove a point"
if you measure the wad of a Winchester super X (high brass) 1 OZ #3 steel shot, it is 0.625" OD,
the ID of the muzzle on my full choke M-11 is 0.595"
which might indicate that the wad gets slowed down by the choke, letting the shot leave the wad before the wad leaves the barrel, possibly causing the steel shot to do 'something' as it exits the end of the barrel.
measuring the wad of a Remington shurshot heavy dove (short brass) 1 OZ #6 lead shot, it is 0.605" OD
Since I've never measured wads or choked muzzles before today, I have no idea if any of this is really relevant.
a Rabi once commented that "if you can't read Hebrew, you should avoid quoting the book of Moses to prove a point"
I've had a model 11 since the mid '70's. I did a little internet research and found it to have been built in 1927 which, as I recall, was the last year of the weird "inside the trigger guard" safety. Mine has a full choke. I hunt Lake St. Clair, which was a steel-only area years before steel was required state-wide. While the model 11 is not my primary duck gun, I have used it occasionally through all these years without problem.
When steel was first required, is was made clear that it was safe to shoot in any shotgun of "modern manufacture". It was further made clear that modern manufacture included most guns made after the turn of the 20th century such as the model 11 or the Winchester model 12, etc.. Guns deemed unsuitable for steel shot included those with things like twist-steel barrels, Damascus barrels, and many thin-walled barrels.
Remember, back then there were no "steel shot" guns on the market. After a few years, the manufacturers started bringing out new models bragging about "steel ready" barrels. And just a few years after that, they started reversing the original claims that our older guns were safe. Funny coincidence, eh? "Better be safe and buy a new gun from us." How convenient. Some guys say "ask the manufacturer". I would suggest you ask someone who has no vested interest in selling you another gun.
Back then, it was said that the worst thing that might happen to a shotgun specifically from shooting steel was that a tightly choked barrel might develop a ring-bulge behind the choke. To this day, I haven't heard any different, and mine hasn't even had that happen.
When steel was first required, is was made clear that it was safe to shoot in any shotgun of "modern manufacture". It was further made clear that modern manufacture included most guns made after the turn of the 20th century such as the model 11 or the Winchester model 12, etc.. Guns deemed unsuitable for steel shot included those with things like twist-steel barrels, Damascus barrels, and many thin-walled barrels.
Remember, back then there were no "steel shot" guns on the market. After a few years, the manufacturers started bringing out new models bragging about "steel ready" barrels. And just a few years after that, they started reversing the original claims that our older guns were safe. Funny coincidence, eh? "Better be safe and buy a new gun from us." How convenient. Some guys say "ask the manufacturer". I would suggest you ask someone who has no vested interest in selling you another gun.
Back then, it was said that the worst thing that might happen to a shotgun specifically from shooting steel was that a tightly choked barrel might develop a ring-bulge behind the choke. To this day, I haven't heard any different, and mine hasn't even had that happen.
Mr. Smith had the same attitude as I do. Remington is in the gun selling business with lawyers telling them what to say.
On a small scale, I took my 1886 Winchester, made in 1892, to the major gun store that had a big repair dept, and asked the owner about repairing the worn barrel. All he wanted to talk about was buying a new gun, "just put that old gun on the wall and buy this new one."
The real questions are:
Guns made before 1940 have 'old' steel in the barrels and will not take the new ammo made today?
Somehow the steel shot that is encased in a plastic wad will damage the barrel, but lead shot in the same wad, powder, will not, because the steel will pack up against the choke?
Other than telling us "safety first" nobody has ever demonstrated why these questions are true.
Pretty much all the complaints about steel shot are either we don't need to be told what to shoot, steel shot fixes a problem that does not exist, or steel shot costs too much.
No gun maker has ever shown how steel shot in a plastic wad can damage a shotgun.
The only logical conclusion is to not use over-powered 3" loads in a gun marked 2-3/4"
But the type of shot - lead, steel, tungsten, bismuth, bubble gum, salt - is irrelevant.
On a small scale, I took my 1886 Winchester, made in 1892, to the major gun store that had a big repair dept, and asked the owner about repairing the worn barrel. All he wanted to talk about was buying a new gun, "just put that old gun on the wall and buy this new one."
The real questions are:
Guns made before 1940 have 'old' steel in the barrels and will not take the new ammo made today?
Somehow the steel shot that is encased in a plastic wad will damage the barrel, but lead shot in the same wad, powder, will not, because the steel will pack up against the choke?
Other than telling us "safety first" nobody has ever demonstrated why these questions are true.
Pretty much all the complaints about steel shot are either we don't need to be told what to shoot, steel shot fixes a problem that does not exist, or steel shot costs too much.
No gun maker has ever shown how steel shot in a plastic wad can damage a shotgun.
The only logical conclusion is to not use over-powered 3" loads in a gun marked 2-3/4"
But the type of shot - lead, steel, tungsten, bismuth, bubble gum, salt - is irrelevant.
My sentiments exactly. Also just don't shoot the ball bearing size shot, it is not needed. I have taken limits of ducks with 6,5,4 Steel out of a 1939 Remington Model 11 in 16 gauge.ozona12 said:
Every shotgun that I own (and shoot) was manufactured before the steel shot mandate.
I own my shotguns to shoot them. I use steel shot for all my waterfowl, pheasant, grouse, woodcock, and rabbit hunting.
My oldest gun is a 1933 Model 12 Winchester in 12 gauge. Like you, I inherited it from my grandfather. He was a farmer and not a hunter. The gun was his "barn" gun. It has essentially zero value to a collector. For a while, I hung it on the wall as a decoration. Then I decided to use it. I opened the choke from full to light modified. I shoot steel shot from size #4 to BB through it.
It is an outstanding goose and duck gun.
It has more value to me now than it ever did hanging on the wall.
It is your gun, do your research and make your decision. Use it as you see fit.
I own my shotguns to shoot them. I use steel shot for all my waterfowl, pheasant, grouse, woodcock, and rabbit hunting.
My oldest gun is a 1933 Model 12 Winchester in 12 gauge. Like you, I inherited it from my grandfather. He was a farmer and not a hunter. The gun was his "barn" gun. It has essentially zero value to a collector. For a while, I hung it on the wall as a decoration. Then I decided to use it. I opened the choke from full to light modified. I shoot steel shot from size #4 to BB through it.
It is an outstanding goose and duck gun.
It has more value to me now than it ever did hanging on the wall.
It is your gun, do your research and make your decision. Use it as you see fit.
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